Tippmann Paintball Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > News And Views > Thoughts and Opinions
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

More crap from Kalifornia... (CNN whale)
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
WGP guy2 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
I play the Bag Pipes

Joined: 23 September 2005
Location: 17h 45m 40.04s
Status: Offline
Points: 2585 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WGP guy2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: More crap from Kalifornia... (CNN whale)
    Posted: 05 February 2008 at 3:30pm
Are you friggin kidding me?!?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/04/nav....ap/index.html

Originally posted by CNN CNN wrote:


LOS ANGELES, California (AP) -- The Navy must follow environmental laws placing strict limits on sonar training that opponents argue harms whales, despite President Bush's decision to exempt it, a federal judge ruled Monday.

A federal judge ruled that the Navy must limit sonar training that some say hurts whales.

The Navy is not "exempted from compliance with the National Environmental Policy Act" and a court injunction creating a 12 nautical-mile no-sonar zone off Southern California, U.S. District Judge Florence-Marie Cooper wrote in a 36-page decision.

"We disagree with the (exemption) judge's decision," White House spokesman Tony Fratto said. "We believe the (exemption) orders are legal and appropriate."

Navy spokeswoman Lt. Cmdr. Cindy Moore said the military was studying the decision.

The president signed a waiver January 15 exempting the Navy and its anti-submarine warfare exercises from a preliminary injunction creating a 12 nautical-mile no-sonar zone off Southern California. The Navy's attorneys argued in court last week that he was within his legal rights.

Environmentalists have fought the use of sonar in court, saying it harms whales and other marine mammals.

Don't Miss
White House candidates and the environment
Read the judge's decision (PDF)
"It's an excellent decision," said Joel Reynolds, attorney for the National Resources Defense Council, which is spearheading the legal fight. "It reinstates the proper balance between national security and environmental protection."

The Navy last week wrapped up a training exercise by the carrier strike group of the USS Abraham Lincoln in which sonar was used. There are currently no task force training exercises off the coast of California using sonar.

When he signed the exemption, Bush said complying with the law would "undermine the Navy's ability to conduct realistic training exercises that are necessary to ensure the combat effectiveness of carrier and expeditionary strike groups."

Said Reynolds: "I've always felt that the president's actions were illegal in this case, and the judge has affirmed that point of view with the decision today.


I wonder if they have yet to realize the thousands of gallons of fuel it will take to get out of the "no sonar zone" to train.  And since when does "a federal judge" trump the POTUS?
Back to Top
Susan Storm View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar
Shot at Love Contestant

Joined: 13 July 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1352 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2008 at 3:33pm

Originally posted by CNN CNN wrote:


...a federal judge ruled Monday.


Originally posted by WGP WGP wrote:


And since when does "a federal judge" trump the POTUS?

Since 1787?



Edited by Susan Storm - 05 February 2008 at 3:51pm
"No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable."
Back to Top
Linus View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - language 6.29.10

Joined: 10 November 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7908 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2008 at 3:43pm
What if an enemy sub enters that 12-mile buffer zone?


Back to Top
Hades View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2003
Location: Virgin Islands
Status: Offline
Points: 13014 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2008 at 3:46pm
Then they wouldn't be training with the sonar, would they?

Edited by Hades - 05 February 2008 at 3:47pm
Back to Top
Skillet42565 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Strike 1: Taunting Mods on Facebook

Joined: 25 December 2004
Location: Liechtenstein
Status: Offline
Points: 9556 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skillet42565 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2008 at 3:47pm
In war times, the laws aren't exactly the same, Linus.
Back to Top
carl_the_sniper View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - 7/29, Bad Linky

Joined: 08 April 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 11259 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2008 at 3:53pm
How does one conduct a test to see if sonar hurts whales?
Back to Top
Snake6 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Outranked by guitarguy?

Joined: 11 September 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 11229 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snake6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2008 at 4:00pm

Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

How does one conduct a test to see if sonar hurts whales?

Really.

The thing that gets me about this is that it is all speculation "we think it hurts whales so we aren't going to allow it." Who makes decisions like this when you don't even have facts to back them up? If there were concrete facts to backup the descion then who cares, but when you are doing something that has no basis in fact? Seriously.
Back to Top
Hades View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2003
Location: Virgin Islands
Status: Offline
Points: 13014 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2008 at 4:01pm
Google: Whale+sonar+test. Is it really all that hard?

Then insert foot into mouth

Edited by Hades - 05 February 2008 at 4:02pm
Back to Top
Jack Carver View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 February 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1653 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jack Carver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2008 at 4:04pm
Well I was reading this submarine book not long ago, and it was stated that there are Russian subs that have an active sonar strong enough to kill fish and seriously stun a diver. So I would assume there have been studies or examples, but it seems they'd have to present a pretty scientific case before getting anything done about it.
Back to Top
Snake6 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Outranked by guitarguy?

Joined: 11 September 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 11229 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snake6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2008 at 4:05pm

Originally posted by Hades Hades wrote:

Google: Whale+sonar+test. Is it really all that hard?

Then insert foot into mouth

Care to link?

Everything I am seeing isn't from credible sources.
Back to Top
Hades View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2003
Location: Virgin Islands
Status: Offline
Points: 13014 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2008 at 4:08pm
Credible source is relative... Would the Navy itself be a creditable source?
Back to Top
carl_the_sniper View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - 7/29, Bad Linky

Joined: 08 April 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 11259 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2008 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by Snake6 Snake6 wrote:

Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

How does one conduct a test to see if sonar hurts whales?


Really.


The thing that gets me about this is that it is all speculation "we think it hurts whales so we aren't going to allow it." Who makes decisions like this when you don't even have facts to back them up? If there were concrete facts to backup the descion then who cares, but when you are doing something that has no basis in fact? Seriously.



Quote the study -- which relied on an elaborate airlift of frozen whale heads from the Bahamas to a Harvard Medical School X-ray facility
Back to Top
Snake6 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Outranked by guitarguy?

Joined: 11 September 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 11229 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snake6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2008 at 4:19pm

Originally posted by Hades Hades wrote:

Credible source is relative... Would the Navy itself be a creditable source?

From your source:

Originally posted by Navy Navy wrote:

It is clear that mankind knows relatively little about how the majority of marine mammals hear and how they may be affected by sound. The National Academy of Sciences has recommended that research be conducted to detect subtle changes in marine mammal behavior that could result from manmade sound interfering with biologically important acoustic information. Short-term responses of marine mammals to anthropogenic sound have been documented to a limited degree. Research to date has shown that marine mammals react to manmade sound in some cases, but do not react in other cases.

So even the Navy is saying that there is not enough research...

 
Back to Top
Bunkered View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
What AM I smoking?

Joined: 10 June 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5708 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bunkered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2008 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by Snake6 Snake6 wrote:

Originally posted by Hades Hades wrote:

Credible source is relative... Would the Navy itself be a creditable source?


From your source:


Originally posted by Navy Navy wrote:


It is clear that mankind knows relatively little about how the majority of marine mammals hear and how they may be affected by sound. The National Academy of Sciences has recommended that research be conducted to detect subtle changes in marine mammal behavior that could result from manmade sound interfering with biologically important acoustic information. Short-term responses of marine mammals to anthropogenic sound have been documented to a limited degree. Research to date has shown that marine mammals react to manmade sound in some cases, but do not react in other cases.



So even the Navy is saying that there is not enough research...


 



Oh Snap.

Guess it would pay to read your sources, wouldn't it?

Kalifornians...

Edited by Bunkered - 05 February 2008 at 4:28pm
Back to Top
Hades View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2003
Location: Virgin Islands
Status: Offline
Points: 13014 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2008 at 4:27pm
More info.

New York Times (April 15, 2001), 16 beaked whales and a dolphin became disoriented and stranded on beaches and in shallow water around the northern islands. Most of the whales were guided back to the open sea, but six of them and the dolphin died. Necropsies showed the mammals had hemorrhaging around the brain and the ears. A year later, a task force that included the Navy concluded that it was "...highly likely..." that the strandings were linked to the sonar.


Also from originally linked Navy website.

http://www.whalesandsonar.navy.mil/stranding_events.htm



Edited by Hades - 05 February 2008 at 4:32pm
Back to Top
Bunkered View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
What AM I smoking?

Joined: 10 June 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5708 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bunkered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2008 at 4:30pm
Highly Likely =/= proven fact.
Back to Top
Snake6 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Outranked by guitarguy?

Joined: 11 September 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 11229 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snake6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2008 at 4:35pm

The paragraph after that:

Quote

Still, according to the U.S. Navy, whales being killed or injured by sonar is largely unproven.  Lt. William Marks, the Navy's spokesman on sonar and marine mammal policy, told TruthOrFiction.com that the website of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric administration lists more than 35,000 incidents of stranded mammals over a period of ten years. Only one of those has been conclusively linked to the use of Navy sonar--and that's the one in the Bahamas in 1991.  Lt. Marks said that since that event, the Navy has been careful to not to operate under the conditions that existed in the Bahamas.

So, they had a problem, fixed it, and since then there has not been an event that has been linked to sonar use by the Navy.

There has been one docuemnted case, not nearly enough to justify shutting down all navy operations invovling sonar along the majority of the western seaboard...
Back to Top
DeTrevni View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
b-YOU-ick. Was that so hard?

Joined: 19 September 2005
Location: Houston, Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 11957 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2008 at 4:39pm
Psh. What're whales good for anyway? I say nuke 'em.
Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
Back to Top
Susan Storm View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar
Shot at Love Contestant

Joined: 13 July 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1352 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2008 at 4:44pm
The judge's opinion also describes the impacts a bit.
"No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable."
Back to Top
choopie911 View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Commie Canuck

Joined: 01 June 2003
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 30773 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2008 at 4:51pm
As I said in the last thread like this:
WHO CARES!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.04
Copyright ©2001-2021 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.375 seconds.