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New A5 issues

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oldpbnoob View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 August 2008 at 7:07pm

Ok, so I finally get a chance to take my new A5 (to me) to the field and play. Inevitably I had some issues. Here is the setup:

A5/e-grip

Rap4 M4 style stock

Palmers QEV/larger lines

CO2/remote/palmers stabilizer

Flatline

First up, when I get up to chrono the marker, which worked fine a week before at home, I followed the Palmers instructions and set the marker at 315 with the bottle directly on and than put the remote and stab on and used it to get the FPS down. Problem is to get the FPS down to a reasonable level, the PSI was in the 600 range and the cyclone would quit feeding. After getting frustrated, I took the remote and everything off and run with tank on the gun. Later, I took the stab off and just ran the remote. Seemed to work better. In hindsight, I am thinking I should have just set the Stab at 800ps or so and used the FVA to get the FPS down. Not always thinking clearly when the kid at the chrono is sitting there tapping his toe at me and offering little or no help. Next time, should I do what I explained? Does that make sense?

Secondish issue. Once I got the FPS and the Cylone working, (without the stab) I tried some 3 shot burst and what I basically got was two semi auto shots, and then the thing would go full auto for a couple of seconds and throw all kinds of paint. Eventually, it would recock. Later, it stopped recocking and I would have to stop it by grabbing the handle. When I switchi it to semi auto, it was fine. One shot, one cycle, not matter how fast I pulled, it was fine. I never got this worked out, but started thinking. When I took the factory plug off the back and went to intall the stock, I realized the stock did not come with an Oring to keep the bolt from banging the back of the marker. I compared the original and realized it has a different system than I am used to on the 98. The stock A5 plug has a "piston" type system, and on the new stock, it doesnt have it. I didnt want damage to occur to the bolt, so I put a gray oring from a small parts kit to cushion it. Should I have done this? Is the oring keeping the sear from catching? Since the stock is plastic is this enough to cushion?

At one point, I took off the QEV and put the stock fittings back on and just in case, I did have full tanks and I put a new batter in. I will say that the marker seemed to work better when I put the full tank on. The issue did seem to get worse after a hopper of balls.

Help me Obi Wan, you're my only hope.

"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Mack View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 August 2008 at 7:30pm
First issue:

  • Your solution makes sense.
  • However, I'm not sure I would run a stabilizer in such a setup as you have at all.  Keep in mind that decreasing the CO2 delivery pressure is the equivalent of reducing the recharge rate of your propellant.  That is, you may have 1000 to 1500 psi before the stabilizer and significantly less afterwards.  This means that you have a marker with an air operated hopper and are intentionally decreasing the delivery pressure.  Doing so makes it easier to "outshoot" the air supply. 

Second issue:

(Prefaced by saying that I don't like/use e-grips so have limited experience with them.)
  • The gray o-ring should be in there.  I have seen plastic stocks shattered by the repeat beating they get from the hammer when this o-ring is not in place.
  • I am not sure what you are referring to when you mention a "piston system" on the stock end cap.
  • Does the board in your e-grip have a true full-auto or is one of the ones where you have to fire semi at a certain rate to get full-auto?
  • The out of control full-auto you describe could be caused by insufficient air pressure to push the hammer all the way back to the sear.  I really think you should try the set up without the Palmers.
Good luck.  (Hopefully someone who really knows e-grips will answer as well.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 August 2008 at 7:46pm

Stock plug that I took out has a "plate" and the grey oring fits behind that. If you take the oring out, you can actually push the plate back. I guess more like a spring than a piston? Anyways, I was just comparing the two and did a spring hole depth check. I noticed that even with the oring on the Rap4 stock, the depth is considerably deeper than the stock end cap. I assume this could be an issue? Do I need to add a BB or put in a longer spring? Pic below has my thumb marking where the depth on the spring hole in the Rap4 stock is vs the stock end cap.

Also, the e-grip I have has semi, 3 shot burst, full auto and two others. Once you set the mode, you have to pull three times and than the mode kicks in. I had it set on 3 shot burst and the first two shots would be semi auto as normal and on the third is when it would go full auto.

Regarding the stabilizer, all these issues were happening even once the stabilizer was taken off. I am kind of lost as to the no stabilizer thing as it seems like everyone says how great these are and how they are recommended instead of an expansion chamber.



Edited by oldpbnoob - 10 August 2008 at 8:07pm
"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Mack View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 August 2008 at 8:14pm
You just taught me something new.  I never realized that the buffer o-ring on the end cap operated as a compression shock absorption system.  I just always assumed that it made for a better fit in the marker.  I've run a second o-ring in mine, loose on the spring like in the 98s forever without a problem so you should be able to do the same with your stock.  (In fact, I recommend doing so.)

Regarding the additional depth in the stock's spring hole I would try a stronger/longer spring first and then a spacer of some sort if necessary* as you suggested.  Theoretically the additional pressure on the hammer would cause it to hit harder, open the valve farther and release more air.  The utilization of the front velocity adjuster to get back to legal velocities should then create additional back pressure which would force more air back toward the hammer to reset it.  If the uncontrolled auto fire is a result of insufficient pressure to reset the hammer, this should provide a solution to that.

Not being an e-grip expert, I won't say anything further regarding that other than try firing semi as fast as you can and seeing if you can duplicate the problem.  If you can, then it is probably an air starvation issue.  (Keep in mind that a weak hammer spring can contribute to this so the spacer may solve several issues.)

I've always held a minority opinion here on the forum as I prefer expansion chambers to regulators on my semi-autos.  I just always reasoned that if I was firing fast enough to work my way toward air starvation that I wanted to start with the maximum psi in the system that the CO2 tanks could deliver on the theory that it would take longer to system failure from lack of propellant.  You shouldn't need an x-chamber as the remote will act as a huge one in most situations.

Final thought, the o-ring on the spring might be inhibiting operation but based on my experience I don't see how it would.  Furthermore, I would be really nervous about eventual damage to the stock without it.

My gut feeling is compensating for the difference between the Rap 4 stock and the end cap will do a lot to alleviate your problems.



*It sounds naughty but it's not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 August 2008 at 8:41pm
Thanks as always Mack. I tried putting the stock end cap back on, going outside and popping some off. Truthfully, same problem. Than about 40-50 shots later, the cyclone stopped advancing and soon after the fart of death. I am going tomorrow to get my tanks refilled and start from square one. I swear the other day, I was on the 3 shot burst mode and had no issues. I can say this, that when I take the air off, and just go through the modes, the E-grip is firing correctly, so it doesnt seem to be the grip misfiring. It must be in the pneumatics. As par for course, I have a scenario that my brother and I are going to coming up this weekend, so under the gun as usual. Guess I may be single balling it all day.
"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote K Hop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 August 2008 at 11:33pm
i'm not an e-grip expert either but 2 shots then full auto sounds like it was set on full auto mode. and i have nothing else to say because mack is so wise and knowledgeable on these forums.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thejudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2008 at 12:56am
I have had the full auto thing happen as well.  I was told to set the debounce higher but that didnt work.  the only way I found to stop it was to actually just hold the trigger.  not sure why it works but it does.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2008 at 9:53am

Originally posted by K Hop K Hop wrote:

i'm not an e-grip expert either but 2 shots then full auto sounds like it was set on full auto mode. and i have nothing else to say because mack is so wise and knowledgeable on these forums.

No, I may not be as experienced as some, but I think I can handle changing in between modes.

Judge, did this always happen or just sometimes? I think you mentioned that you switched to HPA, did this have any effect?

"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thejudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2008 at 2:36am
no it still happens pretty often.  I can't figure out why.  I am running 800-850 psi and t only happens once I hit a mode other than semi auto but never happens in semi auto so i think it has something to do with the WAS board.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2008 at 3:05pm
Well..... that sucks. I wonder if there was a bad batch of boards? Will try some things and if it doesnt work, may call Tippmann.
"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thejudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2008 at 3:20pm
if you figure it out let me know lol.  I just kinda have learned to deal with it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2008 at 7:07pm

Oddly enough there is a thread on A5OG pretty much on this subject. I am trying to weed through it a little bit and get the mwa mwa mwa (think Charlie Brown) sound out of my head when I read through it.

http://www.a5og.net/5-trigger-systems/16385-full-auto-egrip- when-should-not-full-auto.html

 

"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2008 at 2:45pm
Welllllll.......... I got my tanks finally filled and went out to the garage and started some testing. Same issue until I thought about something that Judge mentioned about pulling back the trigger to stop it. I tried pulling back and holding the trigger for a second and the three shot burst did exactly that. Shot three shots and stopped. I went through 1/2 a hopper doing this and it works like a champ. I will add that I put in a stronger spring beforehand, but this honestly didnt help until I started holding the trigger back. Digging out the instructions now to see if it says thats the way it's supposed to work.
"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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