Extended-Range, Improved-Accuracy PBs |
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UV Halo
Member Joined: 19 August 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 229 |
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Posted: 01 June 2006 at 9:46pm |
The best idea I've seen for achieving an extended range, and an
improved accuracy paintball is patented. I'll give some
explanation as to why I think it would work, and I'll follow with some
possible reason we don't see it in use.
The product in question was called the Safety Paintball. It promised an increased range, increased accuracy, and increased safety paintball. It was basically, a pill-shaped paintball (like a liqui-gel). Why it would work: It had an increased Sectional
Density. So, what is Sectional Density? SD=
weight/frontal area (diameter^2). When comparing projectiles with
similar frontal profiles (Conical to Conical, hemispherical to
hemispherical, parabolic to parabolic, etc) the projectile with a
higher SD will have a reduced drag effect. For example, a .687"
spherical paintball, weighing in at 3.187g has a SD of
3.187g/(.687"x.687")= 6.753. If it is compared to a paintball
with a caliber of .520 and a length of .602 (and filled with the same
material, giving it the same weight), it's SD would be 11.786; a 75%
decrease in drag. This 75% decrease in drag would greatly flatten
the trajectory, and would allow the projectile to travel further
downrange before hitting the ground.
So, what happened?There are two issues with this by itself.
1. An oblong projectile must be
spin stabilized, otherwise it will tumble in flight. This is
easily fixable- Riflling. Spin-stabilizing an oblong projectile
would give a greater accuracy improvement because the center of gravity
won't change as much from shot to shot since the length, and width of
the projectile differ much more, and they would always be in the same
orientation.
2. A smaller diameter projectile, with the same mass, and the same speed, will have a smaller area to distribute it's impact force. As the sectional density increases, so does the pounds per square Inch(PSI). a 75% increase in PSI, could increase the chance of goggle defeat (very bad). The patent's fix: Put the seam of the ball along the length of the projectile. This means the ball will always impact on it's weakest spot, and, you get the added benefit of aerodynamically neutralizing the effect of the seam because it is inline with the direction of flight, every time. Ads were run in APG, A patent was applied for, and granted (you can read it here). A working prototype gun (magazine-fed Semi-Auto) was produced.
Press reports released in the next couple years labeled it's failure as
a result of trying to get the paintball industry to change it's newly
adopted .68 standard, too late in the game. Direct feednecks, and
hoppers had just overtaken feed tubes (and magazines, in the case of
the smg-60/68), semi-automatics (automag, Autococker) were just
starting to be used in tourneys. The rest is speculation.
My own thoughts on the failure and why we still do not see a product today: Ever since the invention of the
auto-trigger (hold trigger and keep pumping to fire multiple shots),
the industry has focused on increasing the rate of fire (keep in mind
that in 1990, 5bps was good). The paintball manufacturers (RP
Scherer, for example) benefit greatly from this.
With that being said, what company would want to invest in a business that's gonna sell fewer paintballs? I can eaily see this inventor approaching RPS with a product that could potentially end a 10-man tournament game with just 10 shots. They'd tell him to hit the road. Or, it could be a fact of the owner of the patent simply asking for too big of a cut of the profits for the industry to even consider it, or maybe just the fact of him asking for any of a cut... |
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M98C- W/QwkStrpCut
Comp Air & Palmer Fatty Stab Gas-Thru Stock Lapco Sight Rail W/ADCO 30MM EDOT Qloader W/ CMS Freak SS W/Stif-Tip * Flatline * Armson Stealth |
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__sneaky__
Moderator Group Voted 2010 Most Improved horse fondler. Joined: 14 January 2006 Location: Uncertain Status: Offline Points: 10000015 |
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here we go again... |
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"I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl
Forum Vice President RIP T&O Forum |
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Squishey
Gold Member Joined: 22 May 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1657 |
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all that math hurts my brain.
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Canadians do it on top.
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ardyandkari
Member Joined: 16 April 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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you lost me after "sd"
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If you define cowardice as running away at the first sign of danger, screaming and tripping and begging for mercy, then yes, Mr. Brave man, I guess I'm a coward.
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MilSimBaller
Member 1 strike, language. 6/7 Joined: 30 May 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 433 |
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basically....with the whole SD thing is hes saying that the front of the paint round is heavyer to carry it furthur...and its pill shaped rather then round so theres less surface area actually breaking through the air...this means less wind resistance...the less restance the farther it goes..
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ardyandkari
Member Joined: 16 April 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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thanks...that made more sense...good idea, except the mags look super wierd...would be nice to be able to put them into a hopper and magically have them turn the right way when they get loaded.........
hmmmmm, i wonder where harry potter is now.................................... |
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If you define cowardice as running away at the first sign of danger, screaming and tripping and begging for mercy, then yes, Mr. Brave man, I guess I'm a coward.
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dark assassin
Member Joined: 18 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 351 |
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looks cool, they could possibly make these, maybe some kind of pneumatic powered mag/loader pretty cool
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It's like a new pair o underwear, at first it's constrictive, but then it becomes a part of you."
-Garth |
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Ralphwggm5
Member Joined: 22 May 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 131 |
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This has been mentioned before. THe major problem is getting the paintballs to rifle. Once they start spinning, only the shell really spins. THe liquid inside creates friction between the inside and the shell, stopping the spin. The ball then goes horribly off course due to tumbling. The straightness produced by the rifling would make it effectively no more accurate than current systems, because after a certain distance all advantage would be lost. It also costs too much to make these conical paintballs. Currently paintballs are about 2 cents per ball. A change in deisgn, such a compartmentalization would cause the price to increase to 4 or even 5 cents per ball, which im sure no one wants to see. THe only real solution for more accurrate balls are solid ones, which are too dangerous.
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A-5
14" Bigshot E-Grip Palmer's Female Stabilizer 68/4500 HPA Collapsible Stock Coiled Remote Polished Internals |
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UV Halo
Member Joined: 19 August 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 229 |
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Okay, the whole bit about SD is about reducing the drag, relative to
the weight of the ball. In otherwords, without changing the
frontal shape (conical, hemispherical, flat, etc), how can you make a
projectile more aerodynamic? Make it thinner (from the point of
view of looking at the ball head-on).
ardyandkari, the clips would be like normal firearm clips, spring loaded with the projectiles stacked. But, doing so limits your shots (iirc, it was about 30rounds per mag)... Technologically, it is possible to have a motorized loader. It's the principle used in modern loading systems, a drum, similar to a Q-Loader (or if you are unfamiliar, look up the gatling gun loading systems on aircraft). But, the cost of this would be ridiculous. Now think about it. If you had a 75% increase in range, and let's say a conservative 30% increase in accuracy, would you need to have more ammo than what a standard infantry rifleman would carry? But, the paint industry doesn't want you to shoot less. They want you to shoot more. Ralphwggm5, You're WAY off buddy. Paintballs spin perfecly fine. Spin one (by hand, like a top) on a smooth surface and it will spin much longer than any paintball will fly, spin it several thousand RPM (a flatline spins in excess of 20,000 RPM by the way) and it will spin even longer. Read my post in the "Sniperball" topic to understand why rifling doesn't work with spherical paintballs. Additionally, if you read this post, I never mentioned using conical paintballs. I said, "Pill-shaped". Pill-shaped would be cheaper than paintball in terms of manufacturing costs because there are more machines making pill-shaped gelatin capsules than spherical ones. Ever heard of the term "Liqui-gel"? In terms of materials cost, it would be the same since you would be using the same amount of gelatin (shell), and fill since the weight would need to be the same (in order to keep the impact force manageable). Sneaky, do you do anything other than just criticize other folks' posts? I can handle criticism but, I have to wonder if you're just a troll when I look at your last three posts, not counting this one (because I'm wondering who you are) and they say: " I would laugh histarically at you... but I'm to tired so I'll just do it the no fun way and say, no." "well so is gasoline and touch exsplosives... that does'nt always mean its a good idea." " well... its better then hunter orange." |
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M98C- W/QwkStrpCut
Comp Air & Palmer Fatty Stab Gas-Thru Stock Lapco Sight Rail W/ADCO 30MM EDOT Qloader W/ CMS Freak SS W/Stif-Tip * Flatline * Armson Stealth |
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ridesnowbrdr
Member Joined: 17 May 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 300 |
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Rifling paintballs does not work. The flatline and a rifled barrel are 2 completly different things, stupid comparison.
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UV Halo
Member Joined: 19 August 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 229 |
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ridesnowbrdr, Stupid Assessment.
I agree with you. Rifling paintballs (spherical) does not work. Again, read my post in the "Sniperball" topic to understand why spherical paintballs do not get any benefit from rifling. Now, why do I think that a flatline barrel can be compared to a rifled barrel in their ability to spin a paintball? Well, to put it simply, the difference between a paintball shot out of either two is only a matter of amplitude and direction. Do you doubt that paintballs can spin in flight? If so, let us hear your explanation of how a flatline works. |
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M98C- W/QwkStrpCut
Comp Air & Palmer Fatty Stab Gas-Thru Stock Lapco Sight Rail W/ADCO 30MM EDOT Qloader W/ CMS Freak SS W/Stif-Tip * Flatline * Armson Stealth |
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choopie911
Moderator Group Commie Canuck Joined: 01 June 2003 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 30773 |
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Wow.... we know that the flatline spins paint, no-one said it didnt. Rifling spins it too...but sideways. Its a sphere, it doesnt benifit from rifling. Sure the pill shaped, or conical round would, but thats common sense, and anyone on this forum longer than 2 months knows that. This idea is hardly new, its been suggested billions of times, the main hurdle is just getting a feed system that's strong enough to feed all the way to the last round in the clip, but not so strong it crushes the rounds at the top. Most of us dont need to read your "sniperball" topic, since we already get it, its pretty straight forward. Not to sound like a jerk, but as I said, the idea is anything but new, we all know how the flatline works, we all know how rifling works, we all know why it doesnt work with spheres. |
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UV Halo
Member Joined: 19 August 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 229 |
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choopie911, If you read the original posting, you would see that I'm
not talking about trying to spin spherical paintballs. I agree that spinning a
spherical paintball does not do any good but, it has nothing to do with any of
the reasons anyone has given on this thread. Additionally,
Ralphwggm5 specifically said, "THe major problem is getting the paintballs to rifle. Once they start spinning, only the shell really spins. THe liquid inside creates friction between the inside and the shell, stopping the spin." Since I'm not talking about spinning spherical paintballs on this thread, I'm not going to cover why they do not work on this thread. I would also like to add that spring fed magazine loaders do work- ever heard of the "Longbow"?, the problem with them is that you can only push /so/ many before you crush them with the spring force. The longbow (21 balls, horizontally) is the max for spherical balls. Because, oblong, pill-shaped balls are thinner, you could get more of them in a row with the same spring pressure. Edited by UV Halo - 02 June 2006 at 9:37pm |
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M98C- W/QwkStrpCut
Comp Air & Palmer Fatty Stab Gas-Thru Stock Lapco Sight Rail W/ADCO 30MM EDOT Qloader W/ CMS Freak SS W/Stif-Tip * Flatline * Armson Stealth |
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choopie911
Moderator Group Commie Canuck Joined: 01 June 2003 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 30773 |
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Yeah...so you pretty much agreed with, or didnt understand everything I said. Works for me. |
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ardyandkari
Member Joined: 16 April 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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sorry i didnt clarify...i meant the clips that were pictured in the link to the gun pics.... |
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If you define cowardice as running away at the first sign of danger, screaming and tripping and begging for mercy, then yes, Mr. Brave man, I guess I'm a coward.
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