ABT internals - Help.

I have a ABT basic and i would like to change some internal for longer and better ball travel and to be more accurate what do you guys think i need to do. I order the cyclone f. and im thinking about a e-grip also, what else i need?

Edited by Poldom77 - 12 August 2008 at 8:16am

After-market internals (such as powertubes) generally don't provide an advantage and can create problems in some cases.

As for the original poster's desire to improve range, (I'm assuming that was what was meant by longer and better ball travel) internals have very little effect on this.  Range is largely determined by the speed of the ball as it exits the barrel.  Higher velocity equates to more range.  Since paintball play is limited to 300 fps or less for safety reasons, everyone essentially has the same range.

The other option for increasing range is to utilize a backspin barrel.  There are two available that I have experience with; the Flatline and the Apex.  Tippmann has just come out with the Straightline barrel which is supposed to increase range as well, but I have no experience with it and thus will do no more than mention it. 

You can do a search regarding the Flatline/Apex and find a lot of information on either of them on the forums but I will provide the basics here.  Both put a backspin on the ball which interacts with the atmosphere to provide lift in a manner similar to the way an airplane wing works.  This flattens the trajectory of the ball and adds additional range.  The Flatline (F/L) does this through the means of a curved barrel while the Apex utilizes a spin-inducing contact pad in a cylinder attached to the end of the barrel.  Both do provide additional range but, as paintballs are not ideal projectiles, the accuracy at that additional range tends to suffer.  They are not "sniper" barrels but are suited better for providing supporting fire.  The Apex, unlike the F/L is adjustable for different amounts of spin applied at different angles which can affect the behavior of the ball causing it to curve various amounts in any direction if the user so desires.

The opinions on backspin barrels vary significantly; people either love them or hate them.  The same can be said of the Apex and F/L, some people like both while others prefer one to the other.  I happen to prefer the F/L, but there are those who disagree.  I always suggest that anyone who is considering one of these barrels try both out before purchase if they can to see which, if either, suits their needs.

If you want increased accuracy without utilizing a backspin barrel there are several ways to do this.  Almost any after-market barrel will provide superior performance to the stock barrel.  The most highly recommended non-backspin barrels on this forum are the J&J Ceramic and the Lapco Bigshot.  You could also look into barrel kits. 

There is much information about all of these issues, and others such as expansion chambers, regulators and CO2 vs. compressed air that also affect accuracy by increasing consistency.  Search and ye will find.


Edited by Mack - 12 August 2008 at 2:04pm

Eternal_SiR wrote: it really depends on your style of play as well.  I have mine ABT setup for surpressing fire and attach mode... high BPS.. so i've upped my internals to make it be abel to take the beating.. and less kickback, and more consistant..  with all my upgrades, i've notice more air efficiency and accuracy has gone way up.  But once my Apex tip arrives, i'm mounting it to my J&J Cermaic barrel.  Then it should be super accurate and have awsome range as well

Doesn't work that way. From everything I have read, due to aerodynamics/physics, once you get past a certain point, you will lose the accuracy. Whole liguid filled sphere/resistance/gravity thing.

Eternal_SiR wrote: . . . the J&J itself is pretty accturate and has pretty good range..

The J&J has exactly the same range as a stock barrel fired at the same velocity.

Eternal_SiR wrote: Mack wrote: Eternal_SiR wrote: . . . the J&J itself is pretty accturate and has pretty good range.. The J&J has exactly the same range as a stock barrel fired at the same velocity. i'd have to disagree with that.. I've noticed better usable range.. meaning that with the J&J, balls are more on path before it begings to drop than the stock barrel..

Then you are firing at a different velocity.  As I said, almost any after-market barrel will be noticeably superior to the stock barrel.  This makes your statement regarding usable range (accuracy) essentially correct, but any two identical projectiles fired at 280 fps under the same conditions will travel the same distance. 

There is so much wrong with the statement below that I chose to just comment on it within the quote:

Eternal_SiR wrote: it really depends on your style of play as well.  I have mine ABT setup for surpressing fire and attach mode... high BPS.. so i've upped my internals to make it be abel to take the beating.. Stock Tippmann internals take the "beating" of high rates of fire just fine as evidenced by the lack of parts failures among all the forum members who have e-grips, e-bolts or response triggers on their Tippmanns.  With very few exceptions (such as spring kits or Cyclone Feed upgrades) after-market internals are just a way for parts manufacturers to make money. and less kickback, "Kickback," which is practically non-existent on paintball markers anyways, is mainly the result of reciprocating mass (i.e. the bolts moving back and forth within the marker).  A 0.002 lb. projectile fired at 300 fps or less just does not possess sufficient energy to provide any type of significant kick.  Replacing the powertube, which is a non-moving part, would have no effect either way on any supposed "kickback."  Replacing the bolt with a lighter bolt would, but then it would also possess less kinetic energy when striking the valve pin; resulting in the valve opening less for a much shorter time which would release insufficient air to reach adequate paintball speeds.  Of course, this could be offset by replacing the main spring with a heavier spring or the valve spring with a lighter spring.  However, a heavier main spring would be propelling the rear bolt faster with a resulting increase in kinetic energy which would offset any "kick" that was reduced by having a lighter bolt.  It would also cause additional wear on the sear and possibly require a sear spring upgrade to continue functioning properly.  Replacing the valve spring with a lighter spring can lead to it's own set of problems which include, but are not limited to, leakage around the cup seal. and more consistant..  The powertube, being a stationary piece of material has minimal effect on consistency.  Upgrading to air, adding an expansion chamber or regulator, or just polishing the internals would provide a greater gain in consistency. with all my upgrades, i've notice more air efficiency Measured/achieved how?  Your list of upgrades indicated in this post does not mention utilizing different springs, a regulator or a rear velocity adjuster.  That being the case, you are using still using the stock springs and velocity adjustment system which means you are utilizing exactly the same amount of propellant with each shot that you were before all of the upgrades were added. and accuracy has gone way up.  Which is probably due entirely to the use of the J&J barrel and has little to do with the powertube. But once my Apex tip arrives, i'm mounting it to my J&J Cermaic barrel.  Then it should be super accurate and have awsome range as well What it will have is the same range as any other Apex set at the same setting fired at the same velocity.  You will probably have accuracy superior to basic Apex barrels in that the J&J is generally superior to the stock Apex barrel.  You will find that accuracy is not "pinpoint" at longer ranges, but this will not be due to deficiencies of your barrel system.  It will be because paintballs (being spherical, liquid-filled, malleable, low velocity projectiles) are inherently inaccurate.  The longer ranges you will get tend to compound both the inherent weaknesses of paintballs as a projectile and the environmental effects upon them. P.S.  If you start getting degraded performance from the Apex try cleaning off the tip even if you can't see anything on it.  A friend of mine soaks his in hot soapy water after every day of play and swears that it makes a difference.  My best guess would be that the rubber piece is susceptible to oil/shell material buildup that can't be seen just like the friction surface of the Flatline is.

Edited by Mack - 12 August 2008 at 2:39pm

Eternal_SiR wrote: as terms to being more efficient.. i've just noticed more shots per tank before it does the infamous auto fire..

If you're using CO2, temperature differences between playing days and rate of fire will effect shots per tank.

Then until you swap out springs, add an additional regulator, or an RVA, there's not much you can do that will actually increase efficiency.

As a side note, F/L and Apex barrels tend to require more air than standard barrels because the balls have to overcome the friction from the F/L interior and/or the Apex friction pad.  Once you get the Apex, you may find that the stock springs aren't strong enough to maintain adequate velocity at certain levels of spin.  If you run into this you should consider an after-market set of springs or some type of spacer behind the drive pin.  Unfortunately though, heavier springs will increase air usage.

The mods* I did to my 98 to tune the F/L the way I wanted made it perform flawlessly, but I paid for it in air efficiency.  (Using a Crossfire 68/3000 I went from over 600 shots/tank with the J&J to just over 400 with the F/L.

*A heavier mainspring and RVA were the major additions; tuning the RVA and stock adjuster to deliver air in the rate/amount I wanted was the time-consuming/experimental part.

You can buy after-market spring kits that come with several different color-coded springs of varying tension.  Using a heavier spring puts more force behind the rear bolt when it hits the valve.  The additional force (up to a certain point) causes the valve to open farther/longer releasing more propellant.  The additional propellant can equate to additional velocity depending upon the forward velocity adjuster (FVA) setting.  You can also get the effect of a heavier spring by putting a spacer behind the drive pin where it goes into the stock/endcap because this puts more tension on the spring as well.  With spacers you have to make sure they are not too big.  (You don't want it to get stuck in the spring hole and become a permanent part of the marker and you don't want to move the drive pin so far forward that the front goes to far into the bolt during operation.)

One other thing to consider.  One of the few downsides to compressed air is that high pressure regulators generally deliver the air at between 800 and 850 psi while CO2 tanks (during warm weather) can deliver pressures in the 1000 to 1500 psi range.  What this means is that what might be adequate spring pressure for desired velocity with CO2 may be insufficient with compressed air.

Edited Addition regarding spring kits:

I should also point out that using lighter springs reduces the force that the hammer hits the valve with which releases less air.  This is related to how a spring kit can increase air efficiency.  If a player finds that they have their FVA turned in quite a ways, they can put a weaker spring in then raise the velocity back up to playing level by backing the FVA back out.

FVA related note:

Many new players don't realize what the stock FVA on the Tippmann markers do.  They do not regulate the amount of air released.  Screwing them in causes them to block the air passage from the power tube to the bolt which restricts air release by reducing the size of the passage.  While back pressure may slightly effect the amount of air released, in essence each shot uses about the same air volume irregardless of muzzle velocity.  The use of an RVA or altering the springs on the other hand has a direct effect on the amount of air released.

FVA usage information for unmodified Tippmann valves:

• Turning it all the way in creates the most restriction in the air passage.
• Backing it out approximately 4 turns normally provides the highest velocity.
• Much more than this removes it entirely from the air passage and can actually create leaks/turbulence that results in low/erratic velocity.

Second edited note regarding the downside of air efficiency:

Markers with air-operated accessories (Cyclone, R/T) present their own challenges when trying to increase air efficiency.  It is possible to make the marker so efficient that insufficient air is left over to properly operate these accessories.


Edited by Mack - 13 August 2008 at 10:39am