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oldpbnoob View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 October 2011 at 9:25am

Surprised a thread on this hasn't been posted, unless it's to avoid another political thread where certain forumers post irrelevant links to biased sites.

I've caught bits and peices, but seems like there is little if any cohesiveness in goals. Appears for the most part to be a bunch of young people who are still being supported by their capitalist parents complaining about capitalism. I hate to be contrite, but is it a true example of a generation complaining about having to actually work to acheive something? I can't seem to wrap my head around the logic of the protests. Are they actually wanting corporations to dismantle so that we have even fewer jobs? Are they truly demanding communism?  Or is this the next hippy movement?
 
A blurb from the news said the protests had been going on for the past month? I know there were some other protests closer to home in Toledo, and I think Dayton this past weekend.
 
I don't get it.
"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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inb4 Obama, abortion, democrat mind control, liberal media conspiracy, etc.
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Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Are they actually wanting corporations to dismantle so that we have even fewer jobs? Are they truly demanding communism? 


Some may certainly can be, but it doesn't appear to be the mainline of the movement. 

I've not read a lot from their perspective though, so I'm going to avoid speaking for them. However, quite a bit of what I've seen and read leans more on the idea of business having less influence on government policy, and business having more social responsibility. 

When you have a left-leaning crowd you'll no doubt have some folks who disagree with the very existence of corporations, but I don't believe they speak for the majority any more than folks with "Tree of Liberty" signs and assault rifles speak for the majority of the Tea Party. 


Edited by agentwhale007 - 11 October 2011 at 11:27am
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There's a list of demands floating around out there that range from "fair living wages for the unemployed" to "all debts forgiven regardless of standing" to abolishing the credit system. Of course these are not supposed to represent the interests of the "movement" (I use that term loosely) which supposedly focuses on corporate greed, lobbying, so on and so forth.

The more I read about it, the more I suspect half these people have no idea what they're demonstrating for. I've used the term "dirty hippies" more than once in conversation here The interviews I've seen are especially bad.
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I can understand the business not have influence on government policy, but what type of social responsibility? All I kept seeing were signs about corporate greed. Of course the snippets that are broadcast by the conservative pundits don't help clarify the matter either. Seems poorly organized and I wonder where these people doing the sit ins are getting the money to pay their rent while they are out sleeping in the park and fighting the man? It always makes me chuckle when kids with $120k college educations paid for by their capitalist parents complain about how life is unfair.

"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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I found us some numbers to discuss on the subject: 

One hundred protesters were polled (So we're dealing with a small sample size, but still worth discussing: 

46% stated that capitalism "Isn't fundamentally evil, just needs to be regulated." 
37% state that capitalism "Cannot be saved and is inherently evil."  

So it appears that a good portion of the folks in New York feel the way you originally proposed, but not quite a plurality. 

I'd be interested to see how these results have changed since the poll was taken on Oct. 2. It appears to have grown a bit in size since then. 
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Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I can understand the business not have influence on government policy, but what type of social responsibility?

 

Quite a bit of what I've read has to do with complaints of stagnating wages. 

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

There's a list of demands floating around out there that range from "fair living wages for the unemployed" to "all debts forgiven regardless of standing" to abolishing the credit system.

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Seems poorly organized 


They can be accused of a lot of things, but being well structured certainly isn't one of them.
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Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I can understand the business not have influence on government policy, but what type of social responsibility?

 

Quite a bit of what I've read has to do with complaints of stagnating wages. 

Coming from a basic lack of knowledge of economics? Stockholders expect a return on their investment. People will not continue to buy stocks if the value of them falls because the corporations are paying higher salaries. Weren't these the same people complaining that CEOs and bankers were getting paid too much a couple of years ago?
"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Forum's Noam Chomsky

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Pardon the multi-posts. 

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

 It always makes me chuckle when kids with $120k college educations paid for by their capitalist parents complain about how life is unfair.


I have little sympathy for the folks complaining about their student debt. 

They knew the implications of their loans when they took them out. 

Now - I can understand the frustration of banks selling and shipping student loans off to less-regulated companies, but the fact the student loan existed? Nobody made you take the loan. 

Frustrated that nobody is hiring while companies are sitting on cash reserves? Fine. But you did the loan thing yourself, kid. 

It's reminiscent, to me, of the people in the Tea Party crowd decrying the government's involvement in Medicare. 
 


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Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:


People will not continue to buy stocks if the value of them falls because the corporations are paying higher salaries.
 

That doesn't have much to do with it - wages have stagnated despite inflation, while profits have increased. 
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Apparently they're planning on marching to the houses of the wealthy now?

http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/10/news/economy/occupy_wall_street_protest/index.htm

Originally posted by Article Article wrote:

The millionaires and billionaires are being targeted for what event organizers called a "willingness to hoard wealth at the expense of the 99%."


Originally posted by Article Article wrote:

Just over 300 people said they would attend as of 11 a.m. Tuesday.


Guess the rest had to work...
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Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:



Guess the rest had to work...

Occupy the break room? 
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stratoaxe View Drop Down
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Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:


Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:


Guess the rest had to work...

Occupy the break room? 


I dunno, large groups in the break room bother me. Makes it hard to relax.

Occupy the janitor's closet works for me.
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Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:


Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:


Guess the rest had to work...

Occupy the break room? 


I dunno, large groups in the break room bother me. Makes it hard to relax.

Occupy the janitor's closet works for me.

WE DEMAND MORE MEANGREEN SPRAY. 
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Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

  wages have stagnated despite inflation, while profits have increased. 
 
Which seems like it would be about right due to supply and demand. Too many workers + not enough jobs = lower pay.  So are they saying corporations should simply start paying higher wages out of the goodnes of their hearts?
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Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

 Which seems like it would be about right due to supply and demand. Too many workers + not enough jobs = lower pay.
 

I don't think you're considering the time period we're discussing. Wages have been stagnant since the mid-1960s, while average worker production has increased steadily since the early 1960s. This stagnation has occurred throughout multiple times of recession and surplus. 

The points of contention come on both aspects of your equation. The idea is that "too many workers" should not be an acceptable qualifier in the developed world, for one. Also, the concern is that there are "too many workers" because companies are sitting on profits without using that money to hire anyone - when they otherwise could. 

On the other side of the plus sign, the argument is that there indeed are "enough jobs," but again, companies are sitting on them, after mass layoffs in the past few years have shown they can get by enough with one person doing the job of three. 

Not saying I agree fully with the concerns. Just saying that is what the concerns seem to be. 

Quote So are they saying corporations should simply start paying higher wages out of the goodnes of their hearts?

Thus the social responsibility thing. 

It's better for society to not have a glut of unemployed workers. It's better for the economy for there not to be a glut of unemployed workers. 
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It is nice to see the teachers unions getting involved...
 

"As CBS 2’s Kris Habermehl reports, the Take Back Chicago protest was organized by the Chicago Teachers Union, labor groups and other organizations."

 
I wonder what those teachers tell their students about capitalism...
They tremble at my name...
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Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

 Which seems like it would be about right due to supply and demand. Too many workers + not enough jobs = lower pay.
 

I don't think you're considering the time period we're discussing. Wages have been stagnant since the mid-1960s, while average worker production has increased steadily since the early 1960s. This stagnation has occurred throughout multiple times of recession and surplus. 

The points of contention come on both aspects of your equation. The idea is that "too many workers" should not be an acceptable qualifier in the developed world, for one. Also, the concern is that there are "too many workers" because companies are sitting on profits without using that money to hire anyone - when they otherwise could. 

On the other side of the plus sign, the argument is that there indeed are "enough jobs," but again, companies are sitting on them, after mass layoffs in the past few years have shown they can get by enough with one person doing the job of three. 

Not saying I agree fully with the concerns. Just saying that is what the concerns seem to be. 

Quote So are they saying corporations should simply start paying higher wages out of the goodnes of their hearts?

Thus the social responsibility thing. 

It's better for society to not have a glut of unemployed workers. It's better for the economy for there not to be a glut of unemployed workers. 
But then, don't we get back to the problem with paying more than is needed to get the job done, which decreases profits, therefore lowering gains by stockholders, resulting in investors and fund managers buying less stock of those companies and ending in the company sliding?
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I know some people who're into this occupy wallstreet malarkey.
Every one of them that I know used to be spoiled rich kids with there parents holding their hand through their lives and had every luxury imaginable provided to them for little to no work being put in on their part.
All of them are also chronic drug users and've just been waiting for this type of crap to happen for years.
They really just seem to not know what they want or to be on the verge of saying they want socialism...
God I hate Austin, Texas.
Ignorance is bliss, why aint you smilin?
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