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So did we win?
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Bruce Banner View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01 February 2009 at 4:17pm
Iraqis vote again:  http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0202/p01s01-wome.html
 
More purple-stained fingers.
 
So if this takes, and it looks like it might - does this validate Bush's invasion?  Granted the war was mismanaged and whatnot, but if the result is a functional democracy in Iraq, is that not a resounding victory in the eyes of history?  Sure, there will be shooting and bombing for some time, but that is true of many other fine democracies as well.
 
So - Bush:  visionary with poor management skills?
 
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choopie911 View Drop Down
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Commie Canuck

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Points: 30773 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 February 2009 at 4:21pm
Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:


So - Bush: visionary with poor management skills?



Not even close
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I still don't see it as being justified, even if democracy works. We went into Iraq under the pretense that it was a threat to America and the surrounding countries in the region. Then it turned into a big nation-building operation after we found out there were no WMDs.

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Commie Canuck

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Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

I still don't see it as being justified, even if democracy works. We went into Iraq under the pretense that it was a threat to America and the surrounding countries in the region. Then it turned into a big nation-building operation after we found out there were no WMDs.


Yeah, I'm having difficulty putting my feelings on this one into words, but thats certainly a part of it.
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Bruce Banner View Drop Down
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Is "justified" the correct standard?  If the outcome is good (assuming it will be), does the original motivation matter?  Even if the good result is unintentional, is it not valid?
 
Besides - regardless of WMDs and other excuses - does anybody doubt W's determination to spread democracy?  He pretty much made that a cornerstone of his administration.
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GI JOES SON View Drop Down
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 wrong execution of the right idea. plain and simple
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Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

I still don't see it as being justified, even if democracy works. We went into Iraq under the pretense that it was a threat to America and the surrounding countries in the region. Then it turned into a big nation-building operation after we found out there were no WMDs.


Yeah, I'm having difficulty putting my feelings on this one into words, but thats certainly a part of it.



Get out of Americas thread.
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Eville View Drop Down
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considering where our history of nation building has gotten us so far, i doubt we are going to truly win
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choopie911 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

Is "justified" the correct standard? If the outcome is good (assuming it will be), does the original motivation matter? Even if the good result is unintentional, is it not valid?

Besides - regardless of WMDs and other excuses - does anybody doubt W's determination to spread democracy? He pretty much made that a cornerstone of his administration.


So you're hinting at the ends justify the means, no matter what?
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Eville View Drop Down
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Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

Is "justified" the correct standard? If the outcome is good (assuming it will be), does the original motivation matter? Even if the good result is unintentional, is it not valid?

Besides - regardless of WMDs and other excuses - does anybody doubt W's determination to spread democracy? He pretty much made that a cornerstone of his administration.


So you're hinting at the ends justify the means, no matter what?


no, he was saying if the end result is good, then it doesnt mater what the original intent was.
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I'd still say thats a pretty iffy concept. "So what if I burned down a childrens hospital, that kid sure learned to walk fast!"
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Eville View Drop Down
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Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

I'd still say thats a pretty iffy concept. "So what if I burned down a childrens hospital, that kid sure learned to walk fast!"

that would be an example of ends justifying means.  in this case it would be more like a businessdude taking over a company with the intent wipe it out so his other business has less competition, but in the end both companies just end up way stronger with more employees and happier investors.
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Bruce Banner View Drop Down
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Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:


So you're hinting at the ends justify the means, no matter what?
 
Not really.
 
Democracy in Iraq was always the goal, and the means was always invasion.  WMDs were (at best) merely the trigger, the last straw.
 
Everybody knew that Saddam was a baddie.
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We should invade every country that doesn't have a democracy then.

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The best result of this war isn't Elections. But I guess that's Honkey Dory. The best result of this war was Guarantee that we wont die from Iraqui WMD's but die at the cold metal hands of our new ever growing Robot Army.

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Bruce Banner View Drop Down
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Or at the hands of charging luchadores.
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Iraq would need WMD's for there to be any risk of dying from them.
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Bruce Banner View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

We should invade every country that doesn't have a democracy then.
 
The absurdity of an extreme position does not invalidate the legitimacy of a moderate version of that same position.  All policies are absurd if taken to the extreme.
 
Besides - maybe we will?  We are busy with two at the moment.  Once they are done, maybe we will move on to the next.  Who knows.
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Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

Or at the hands of charging luchadores.


While in the Square Circle few warriors stand a chance against a Luchador. In modern Warfare Spandex and Flesh doesn't stand up against Lead and Shrapnel. I'm rethinking my Zombie Survival kit... I need to worry about the eminent Robot Uprising.

My Wife's Roomba and Scuba always did kinda give me the evil eye...
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Commie Canuck

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Points: 30773 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 February 2009 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

We should invade every country that doesn't have a democracy then.


The absurdity of an extreme position does not invalidate the legitimacy of a moderate version of that same position. All policies are absurd if taken to the extreme.


Besides - maybe we will? We are busy with two at the moment. Once they are done, maybe we will move on to the next. Who knows.


Haha, the US butt heads with China? That'll happen.
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