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Another gun control tidbit. |
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Reb Cpl 
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 Topic: Another gun control tidbit.Posted: 20 April 2009 at 6:52pm |
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The other day I was watching a CNN debate on gun control. One side was a fellow from the NRA, the other was a representative from Pennsylvania. I neglect to remember his name or his position.
Since it was CNN, it was basically a 2v1 discussion, but the guy from the NRA was holding his own pretty well, although both sides were spitting out the same old rhetoric. The proponents for gun control looking to tighten the reigns for responsible gun owners, and the guy from the NRA telling them they were being silly, neither side making much progress or accomplishing much more than wasting airtime. Finally, the guy from Philly laid down a line that nearly knocked me down. It was something along the lines of: "We need tighter gun control because many people who use guns in crimes obtain them from people who purchase them legally" Had he said that the people who use them obtain them legally, I might not have a problem. But I've got a real problem with his wording, which basically rings the necks of people who are legitimate and responsible gun owners because he believes that we are responsible for getting guns into the hands of people who will commit crimes with them. My question is, Do people believe this for real? Or might this have been a slip of the tongue? I didn't hear much after that because I was yelling at the tv. |
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Peter Parker
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Posted: 20 April 2009 at 6:56pm |
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That's been a pretty consistent pattern for many years. FBI statistics confirm it. Many, if not most, handguns (and I believe also other guns) that are used in crimes in the US started life with a legal purchase.
I'll go hunting for the FBI stats...
EDIT: Here.
These stats are a bit old. I am sure there are better numbers someplace. Look about halfway down the first page for the summary chart, with the detail in the body of the document. Friends/family basically are tied with illegal purchases. Given our previous threads, also note the tiny impact of gun shows.
But these are not the numbers I was looking for - there are some other stats showing the breakdown of the black market guns, and that's where it gets really bad. A shockingly high number of black market guns were originally purchased legally. I'll keep looking.
Ever wonder why so few crimes in this country are committed with full-auto weapons?
Edited by Peter Parker - 20 April 2009 at 7:01pm |
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"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself". Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common? |
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ParielIsBack
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Posted: 20 April 2009 at 6:58pm |
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I can believe people think that.
So, because criminals buy from legal gun owners illegally (or perhaps, legally), we should punish gun owners who legally owned and used their firearms? That logic simply doesn't make sense. I fully support tracking private sales of firearms, but there has to be a limit. Edited by ParielIsBack - 20 April 2009 at 7:00pm |
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Peter Parker
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Posted: 20 April 2009 at 7:02pm |
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Did I say any such thing?
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"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself". Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common? |
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Reb Cpl
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Posted: 20 April 2009 at 7:05pm |
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Peter, I'm not going to argue with numbers of course but if you want to use statistics, what's the percentage of legally purchased firearms that are NEVER used in a crime?
I completely agree with some level of gun control, but I still can't wrap my head around how 'punishing' (for want of a better word) responsible gun owners with more legislation will prevent criminally obtained and used firearms. |
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ParielIsBack
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Posted: 20 April 2009 at 7:06pm |
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Please. You implied it in the way you stated your agreement. Either phrase things the way you mean them, or shut up entirely. Don't use them as traps so you can appear more intelligent. It just makes you seem like a twit. |
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carl_the_sniper
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Posted: 20 April 2009 at 7:12pm |
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No he didn't. I didn't gather such a connotation at all. Stop trying to pick fights. |
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Peter Parker
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Posted: 20 April 2009 at 7:18pm |
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I certainly don't know - presumably most, I would hope.
But...
As discussed earlier, it is inevitible that laws meant to stop/punish the few guilty will inconvenience the many innocent.
The specifics will vary, of course, but there are plenty of possibilities. A few easy ones - make it a crime to loan your gun to anybody. PITA? Yes. Based solely on my link above, would that make it harder for criminals to get guns? Yes. Would it be worth it? Different question.
Many other crime guns are stolen. Legal gun owners do not always keep their guns locked up safely, and guns are a favorite loot during burglaries. If we made it a crime to have your gun stolen because it was improperly secured (not sure how to implement that, but go with it), would that make gun owners take better care of their guns? I would hope, and it would further reduce gun availability to criminals. Would it be worth it? Again, policy question, but the effeciveness seems hard to dispute.
Look at crime committed before the NFA and after, and look for the use of full-auto weapons, and again after 1986. Is there any way to deny that the near-prohibition of full-auto weapons in the US has drastically reduced their availability and criminal use?
These laws do have effect, or at least they can - gun control laws in this country are laughably porous. Critics say that gun control doesn't work - and they are right, to a large extent, with regard to US laws, because our laws have loopholes the size of [rude comment]. Think about it - when Mexican drug lords need guns, they come here. It is easier to get guns here than in a country with a massively corrupt police force and a barely-functioning government.
Would proper gun control inconvenience law-abiding citizens? Absolutely. No doubt. But law-abiding citizens should be honest with themselves and admit that most guns do start out legally. If we are to reduce gun crime in this country, the best approach is to limit the source, and that means law-abiding citizens. Whether those controls come voluntarily or involuntarily is a different matter - but to manage the illegal guns we MUST manage the legal guns.
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"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself". Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common? |
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Peter Parker
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Posted: 20 April 2009 at 7:20pm |
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I absolutely did not. I was simply making a factual statement about the source of crime guns. I still cannot understand why people keep trying to color me a gun hater.
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"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself". Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common? |
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agentwhale007
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Posted: 20 April 2009 at 7:43pm |
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I wrote an editorial a while back. It was concerning a case in Florida where - if I recall correctly - the Florida Supreme Court decided that private companies have the right to tell their employees that they are not allowed to keep firearms in their vehicles while the car is parked on private property.
Included in my editorial was stats on the number of automobile burglaries and thefts that occur each year. I talked to a number of members of various Sheriff's Offices around the state, and they said that in Florida a large number of guns used in crimes come from car burglaries and thefts, because you are allowed to leave a gun in your car if you want.
While my contribution to this thread is limited to the stats I have on Florida, the point remains. The majority of firearms used in crimes started off with a legal owner at some point.
That's not an argument for or against gun control at all. It's not a condemnation of gun owners. It's nothing but numbers. It's just a statistic.
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merc
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Posted: 20 April 2009 at 8:01pm |
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^ thats a big argument ive heard...
even IF there was super tight gun control laws, if a criminal wants a gun what is to stop them from breaking into your house and stealing one? |
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Reb Cpl
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Posted: 20 April 2009 at 8:04pm |
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As long as people see that way Whale, I don't have a problem. This guy though WAS using that as a device to push for tighter GC laws. That's what I have a problem with. I know dozens, if not hundreds of gun owners who have never had their cars broken into, had their guns stolen, or ever had their guns used in a crime. If people are using logic like this to create legislation, I've got a big problem.
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ParielIsBack
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Posted: 20 April 2009 at 8:06pm |
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Fine. |
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agentwhale007
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Posted: 20 April 2009 at 8:10pm |
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That's fine though. Stats are used to present arguments.
I was simply saying that I myself, in this thread, had not seen an argument made pro or against anything. Just stats.
That's fine, same with myself. I suspect we are not the demographic where this is the problem. However, it is indeed happening, and there are statistics to prove it.
I don't.
I would rather legislation to help control firearm crime be based off of this, something factual and statisticly based, than something like the AWB or Brady Bill which seemed to be a sort of willy-nilly mish-mash of things.
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Evil Elvis
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Posted: 20 April 2009 at 8:32pm |
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Why I advocate for Legit Gun owners to graph their firearms to their arms so they don't end up in the hands of criminals.
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tallen702
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Posted: 20 April 2009 at 8:36pm |
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A gun safe, bolted to the floor and wall, and you, with a firearm in a palm-reader safe bolted to the wall/floor with glasser silver rounds in the mag, that's what. 
Edit: And E.E. The gun-arm concept is way cooler in Ghost in the Shell S.A.C. That and Motoko Kusanagi is way hotter. Edited by tallen702 - 20 April 2009 at 8:39pm |
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Peter Parker
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Posted: 20 April 2009 at 9:59pm |
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^^^^^ Exactly. Which is how, IMO, a responsible gun owner stores their guns, at least when they leave the house (palm-reader optional). Although I will leave the choice of ammunition to you.
Could we make it a crime NOT to store your gun in such a fashion? Sure - and it would probably reduce gun crime. My suspicion is that most stolen guns are in fact NOT secured in this fashion, or anything approaching it.
I don't have to think very hard to come up with a list of firearm owners who casually leave the house with half a dozen guns laying about - under the bed, in the nightstand, in the entryway closet... all loaded, of course. Their stamp collection is locked up - the guns are there for the taking.
Edited by Peter Parker - 20 April 2009 at 10:01pm |
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"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself". Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common? |
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tallen702
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Posted: 21 April 2009 at 12:11am |
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Well... truthfully I keep a mix in the mag. first 3 are Glaser silver frangibles followed by 5 Winchester +JHP personal defense rounds. If they don't go down with 3 glasers in them, then the 2 follow-ups with +JHP should do the trick. If that doesn't do it, I'm boned. /trains for quick-draw 5-shot center mass //none of this double-tap crap ///don't want them getting up. |
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Bunkered
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Posted: 21 April 2009 at 8:22am |
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I also know plenty of people who don't keep their guns locked up.
My entire family in Alabama does that, and my uncle is a police captain. I always did think that seemed kind of dumb. My guns are in a fireproof gunlocker that's bolted to the floor, and you need two keys to open it. Ammunition is kept elsewhere. |
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rednekk98
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Posted: 21 April 2009 at 9:11am |
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I think if you get a gun stolen in MA it's a $1000 fine to the victim, I'm not sure if that includes firearms that were stored in safes. We have to have them secured when not under our direct control, but a locked trunk counts. I you want to carry a pistol in your car I believe you are required to have a strongbox welded into the floor.
Of course crime guns mostly start out legally. Why import many when you can rob a widow who's husband owned guns? Except for the AKMs that occasionally show up that are illegally imported, logic would indicate that most crime guns start out legal. I can see some sensible home-storage laws, but you know if the democrats write a law they will just limit us to single barrel pop-guns with strings no longer than 18" |
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