Freedom is overrated...

Barretm82 wrote: Does the failure of nations, not start with the failure of individual responsibility?

Hm.  Tricky question.

Before I can try to answer - what is the failure of a nation?  When has a nation "failed?"  (Hence my query about whether Rome really fell)

Did France "fail" at the French revolution?  If so, what is France now?  (French jokes aside)

At some level, your point is obviously true - the Third Reich "failed" because individual leaders and soldiers failed their responsibilities in completing their duties - but I don't think that was what you meant.  Can you clarify?

this is going no where...

Freedom cant last forever, the American people don't know whats good for them, and ever society will fall.

There discussion over.

Barret - I do think I have an idea what you meant.   :)

To apply to my thoughts - I think that "freedom" and "responsibility" are separate concepts.  BUT - with freedom comes the opportunity for more responsibility.  Somebody with no freedom cannot meaningfully have responsibility.  To have responsibility one must first have freedom to act - at least to some extent.

Looking to the root of "responsibility" we find that it comes from being able to respond, to act, to answer.  I read into the very word the idea that with action comes the answer - if you are able to act, you are also able to answer for your actions.  If you are unable to act, you are unable to answer for your actions, whether to accept blame or accolade.

(There is a major tangent here about determinism and accomplishment, but I'll leave that for later...)

For this reason, "I was just following orders" has always been, to some extent, a legitimate excuse in the right context.  Nobody held the average stormtrooper responsible for the horrors of the Third Reich.  Similarly, nobody holds the individual slaves responsible for the fall of Rome.  They had no freedom, therefore they had no responsibility, therefore they are free of blame.

I'm rambling a bit here...  and I have to run.  Will take up this train of thought in a bit.

And you can thank the ignorance and direct, total disregard and dismissal of the people by the government for that failure.

The "fall" of a country is not necessarily the fall of a people, but the fall and failure of a government. And it is not due to the common mistakes and morals of every man, it is due to the mistakes of the leaders, and the polluted and flawed government itself.

Oh, and as far as restraining freedoms goes, I have one of my favorites to share with you. "A man who compromises essential liberties for temporary safety, deserves neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin. And it is due to him that you are enjoying such liberties.