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Abortion/ Goverment power debate.

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Clark Kent View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 6:06pm

Originally posted by Hades Hades wrote:


I best most forummers on this site dont have much of a clue either.

I would like to point out for the record that I in fact DO know everything about sex.

 

 

EDIT - ugh, I just pushed my own post to the previous page



Edited by Clark Kent
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Hades View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

My sister has had 2 kids and 3 abortions that i know about. Im well aware of what is involved.
I dissagre completely. You can only possibly know only some of what is involved. From a medical perspective, you might know what goes on but since you yourself never been pregnant or gotten anyone pregnant, you have no clue what enotions and responisbilities raise through your mind. It is a very big desicion to have a abortion, perhaps even harder.

Until you are in a situtation where abortion of your "possible" child is consider you have no clue of what is involved.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da Hui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 6:09pm

Originally posted by Hades Hades wrote:

Originally posted by Da Hui Da Hui wrote:

Pregnancy is no walk in the park. But Girls should be aware that if there going to have sex, they can get pregnant. Having an Abortion is just wrong. If you dont want a kid, use a condom(not foolproff but generally efective) and birth control. Or dont have sexy.


How many 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 year old girls do you know that know everything about sex, contraception, and pregnancy?

Hell, I know several that are 18+ and still dont have a clue.

I best most forummers on this site dont have much of a clue either.

I had to explain to someone what a female condom once was on this site.

Experts or informed about sex and pregnancy my foot.

I have a few friends with kids (their 14). Pregnancy is no joke. Its hard.

If people knew more about anything this world wouldnt be so damn dumb.

So maybe its  the parents fault. If they taught their kids about this before they choose to become active. They would be far more catious.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by Da Hui Da Hui wrote:

If people knew more about anything this world wouldnt be so damn dumb.

I agree 1000%.

Congrats, Clark. Someday I will be as enlightened as you are. But I still have many years and experieces ahead.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da Hui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 6:28pm
Like the new title. To bad my thread got locked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 636andy636 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by amishman89 amishman89 wrote:

  


ABORTION IS HOMOCIDE!!    How can you say a 14 year old child has the right to decide about abortion. She cant even drive yet  alone decide if she wants to abort a innocent baby! Abortion now is just a to erase a mistake,"oh were having a bay lets abort it thats the easy thing to do!" Just like divorce," oh were arguing lets get a divorce''(there are exceptions to the divorce thing) Why these kids are having premarital sex is... well I dont know. The point is parents should know and abortion should be outlawed. This is my beliefs and I stand by them.



Its not a baby when its still in the mother. Shes 14, shes not old enough to have a baby, she does not have her drivers licance yet... If kids are going to have sex they should give them better education on how to have safe sex so there will be fewer teenage pregnanctys

Let the people do what they want to do to there own bodys. If people want to have abortions I say let them. Its the peoples own decisions. How about you outlaw tatoo's and piercings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 7:41pm
Personal opinion shouldnt come into play when it comes to law. The process of aborting a fetus is a medical procedure, any way you slice it, thats what it is. Parental concent should be needed.

And i dont care about the emotions of the girl or what it involves. It doesnt matter. Its an elective medical procedure. It isnt an inevitablity like childbirth. If the kid is pregnant no one is going to tell her you need to get this form signed in order for us to deliver this baby for you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aGUYnamedLARRY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by 636andy636 636andy636 wrote:

 

  



Its not a baby when its still in the mother. Shes 14, shes not old enough to have a baby, she does not have her drivers licance yet... If kids are going to have sex they should give them better education on how to have safe sex so there will be fewer teenage pregnanctys

Let the people do what they want to do to there own bodys. If people want to have abortions I say let them. Its the peoples own decisions. How about you outlaw tatoo's and piercings.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it's a kid when it's in the mother.
A person's a person,  no matter how small.
Have you ever seen the ultra sounds?
Just because they're small,  that doesn't mean you can ruthlessly murder them with sick cruel methods.
They can FEEL PAIN.

Ok   636,  let's say you're out of a job ok?
You need a place to bum out at a friends house till you've got back on your feet.  Your friend thinks you are to much trouble and decides to drown you in battery acid.
He could also run you through a tree grinder,  he could also cut out the back of your skull and use a vacuum cleaner to suck yer brains out.
And if he decides  randomly knife you in your sleep that's ok because to your friend you're just a big pain in the butt,  so you can be killed,  right?

Tattoos?  body piercing?
that's a pathetic way of comparing things.
Killing someone is very different from a tatoo.
Hey  if we can make people stop with the tatoos and body piercing  we should stop people from cutting their hair! 


It's sick stupid people like you that are corrupting the world today.
The U.S.  has 15 years before it tears itself apart...

In a world where everyone has gone mad, only the lunatic is truly sane.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Badsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 8:02pm
It may sound like a cop-out, but I think both sides are right on this issue. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aGUYnamedLARRY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 8:10pm
onemadfiddla: what are your views on abortion?
ElfLusseloss: why do you say that?
onemadfiddla: all abortion is wrong,  yes?
ElfLusseloss: yes
onemadfiddla: good
ElfLusseloss: absolutely
onemadfiddla: tell that to the retards on this paintball forum
ElfLusseloss: no room for negotiating
ElfLusseloss: tell them a girl said it and sometimes that hits home better
onemadfiddla: heh heh heh ok

That was a conversation me and my girlfriend  just had.
She told me I should tell you guys.
In a world where everyone has gone mad, only the lunatic is truly sane.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 8:14pm
Basicaly. My thoughts on it. Aside from what i think about it legally speaking.

Parents shouldnt be able to tell their child not to have sex once they reach a certain age. The age of sexual maturity and responsiblity varies from culture to culture, family to familay and from country to country. Its a culture that defines the age of sexual maturity. A cultures mores and folkways are what set the laws and tabboos of said culture. We set up "age of concent" laws in an effort to protect our children from the devients of society. But the point at wich a person matures and is able to have sex responsibly varies from person to person. It may seem perfectly natural for a 14 year old to have sex with a 20 year old in a different country. Their moores and folkways alow this.

But in this country. Our moores and our folkways stipulate that a person does not reach maturity, is not viewed upon as an adult capable of making their own decisions until the age of 18. Sexual maturity is irrelevent. They must be viewed upon by society to where they are fit to make their own decisions, viewed as an adult, this age is 18, like it, or not.

But in a perfect world, in a vacume, a person should have the right to have sex with whoever they want should they choose, and parental concent would not be necessary to obtain an abortion, because again, it would violate the girls right to privacy.

In this society, we are not viewed upon as adults capable of making our own decisions until we reach the age of 18, this goes hand in hand with medical procedures, peircings, tattoes, voting, joining the military, and being tried as an adult in the eyes of the law.

Abortion should be no difference. Its still a medical procedure and our society says that you are not capable of making these types of decisions until the age of 18.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 8:15pm
Why doesnt this "girlfriend" of yours come tell this retard herself?

And why should I care what she thinks? She hasnt had sex either so to me, her opinion doesnt count.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 8:17pm
My girlfriend thinks we should invade North Korea.


But you know. That doesnt make it right.

In other words. It doesnt matter what she thinks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 636andy636 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 9:15pm
Originally posted by aGUYnamedLARRY aGUYnamedLARRY wrote:


Originally posted by 636andy636 636andy636 wrote:

 

  




Its not a baby when its still in the mother. Shes 14, shes not old
enough to have a baby, she does not have her drivers licance yet... If
kids are going to have sex they should give them better education on
how to have safe sex so there will be fewer teenage pregnanctys

Let the people do what they want to do to there own bodys. If
people want to have abortions I say let them. Its the peoples own
decisions. How about you outlaw tatoo's and piercings.


Yes, it's a kid when it's in the mother.
A person's a person,  no matter how small.
Have you ever seen the ultra sounds?
Just because they're small,  that doesn't mean you can ruthlessly murder them with sick cruel methods.
They can FEEL PAIN.

Ok   636,  let's say you're out of a job ok?
You need a place to bum out at a friends house till you've got back on
your feet.  Your friend thinks you are to much trouble and decides
to drown you in battery acid.
He could also run you through a tree grinder,  he could also cut
out the back of your skull and use a vacuum cleaner to suck yer brains
out.
And if he decides  randomly knife you in your sleep that's ok
because to your friend you're just a big pain in the butt,  so you
can be killed,  right?

Tattoos?  body piercing?
that's a pathetic way of comparing things.
Killing someone is very different from a tatoo.
Hey  if we can make people stop with the tatoos and body
piercing  we should stop people from cutting their hair! 


It's sick stupid people like you that are corrupting the world today.
The U.S.  has 15 years before it tears itself apart...

[/QUOTE]

LOL

Its a fetus, can you interact with a fetus? Its not a person till its born
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 9:37pm
Yes. You can interact with a fetus. I kept my mom up moving around in the womb. She played simon and garfunkle and i quit moving and went to sleep.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 9:59pm

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

We set up "age of concent" laws in an effort to protect our children from the devients of society.

... this age is 18, like it, or not.

In this society, we are not viewed upon as adults capable of making our own decisions until we reach the age of 18

Actually, the age of consent varies from state to state.  16 in many states, lower than that in some. 

And minors have many rights.  In many states minors can marry without parental consent.  In every state minors can own a car and drive, endangering themselves and others, without parental consent. 

Simply pointing to 18 as a bright-line rule is too simple.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rambino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 10:01pm

Originally posted by Da Hui Da Hui wrote:

Like the new title. To bad my thread got locked

Nothing personal.  Topics like this just have a tendency to spread and take over the forum.

[IMG]http://i38.tinypic.com/aag8s8.jpg">
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 10:24pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

We set up "age of concent" laws in an effort to protect our children from the devients of society.


... this age is 18, like it, or not. In this society, we are not viewed upon as adults capable of making our own decisions until we reach the age of 18


Actually, the age of consent varies from state to state. 16 in many states, lower than that in some.


And minors have many rights. In many states minors can marry without parental consent. In every state minors can own a car and drive, endangering themselves and others, without parental consent.


Simply pointing to 18 as a bright-line rule is too simple.



I wasnt saying that 18 was age of consent, its 17 in virginia and 16 in michigan. I know it varies, but minors are not allowed to enter into contracts, nor are they allowed to alter their bodies with peircings or tatto ext ext.

Minors can drive because of the state mandated driving test and driver qualification exams. Its not a right its a privilage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 10:36pm

The distinction between a right and a privilege exists only in civics class.  The reality is that minors have a number of rights in terms of what they do to and with their bodies and lives, and these rights accrue at different stages of their lives.

(And even 18 isn't a total win - consider alcohol, for instance)

My point is simply that we cannot hang the minor consent requirement on the statement that minors don't have rights over themselves - because they do.  In particular they have the right to have sex, which tends to lead to pregnancy.  There are NO states where it is actually a crime to have sex as a minor - the crime is committed by the adult.  This is different from buying alcohol, for instance, or driving underage, both of which are actually crimes when committed by people of insufficient age. 

Having sex is never a crime due to your own age.  And if we don't make sex illegal for minors, we cannot hang a minor consent requirement for abortion on age alone.

And, BTW, responding to an earlier post - childbirth is not an inevitability after pregnancy.  That is really the subject matter of this discussion.  Once you are pregnant, A medical procedure will follow (barring miscarriage) - the question is which one. 

And if parents have the right to force their minor child to have the MORE dangerous medical procedure instead of the LESS dangerous procedure, then it should logically follow that they should also have the right to force their child to have the LESS dangerous procedure instead of the MORE dangerous procedure.  Anything else would be silly.  Unless, of course, the whole "medical procedure" argument is post hoc, in which I will feel free to ignore it completely.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 10:48pm
We can debate this all day long. Its an elective voluntary medical procedure. My stance is that legaly the minors guardians should have to give concent or be notified.
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