SHOW US YOUR SENARIO GUNS/GEAR PICS

procarbinefreak wrote: procarbinefreak wrote: so baewolf... answer my question... if i go into the snake on a speedball course, pop up and take out 3 people not looking at me... and remain hidden from the rest of the team.. am i a sniper? anyone in their right mind is going to try to stay concealed... especially in the woods!  that doesn't make em a super duper snipzorz... get over it. still waiting baewolf...

Funny usually you just backup or agree with anything that Snake6 says don't make direct statements or have thoughts of your own. But okay i'll answer your question,
"if i go into the snake on a speedball course, pop up and take out 3 people not looking at me... and remain hidden from the rest of the team..

am i a sniper?"

So what you are saying is that the other players just happened to not be looking at you so you shot them in the back, then you layed there with your head down so no one could see you and you are asking me if you would then be considered a sniper. Wow I don't know, I guess first off you lucked out that the people you shot at were not looking at you so you shot them in the back, then you hid behind something so no one else would see you hoping that the oportunity would avail itself again. I tell you what I will tell you about something that happened two weeks ago while I was playing and you tell me if there is any difference between what happened to me and your example.

I was playing defence in a woods ball game, I was wearing my ghillie that I made, I had found a downed tree and was positioned under it, the other team advanced, and all the members of my team except for me and one more player was taken out, he was behind me laid down behind some piled up logs, a player with an ion, named Cory was advancing past the bunkers ahead of us towards our position, I layed there watching him ,move towards us, and I waited until , he got within 15 feet of my position, when he came out from behind the trees he had his gun raised, but not pointed at me, he was looking straight over me and was aiming at the guy positioned behind me. So I hit him in the chest with three shots, and he walked out. Next another player came in on my right side and I shifted positon, and when he tried to sprint around our position and flank us shot him twice. The last guy on their team made his way to the rather large empty bunker closest to us, directly in line with my teamate behind me, he started making long shots, but at my teamate behind me, so when I got the chance I signaled for him to move around to the left side. He fired a few shots at him and the other guy fired a few back, then when the oponent raised up to shoot him and I had a clear shot I put two in the side of his head.
We won the round and I waited until the last oponent left before I came out of my position. When I got out and we all started talking the first guy that I shot said that he had no idea where I was, even though he was looking directly my way and was gunning for the guy behind me, the second guy said that he still has not idea where the shots came from, and the third guy I shot was convinced that it was the other opponent that shot him, until I pointed out the fact that my paintballs are green and his are red.
I seem to think there is a difference, it is a mindset, a style of play, it requires patience, and allot of work. I know that there are speedballers out there that would wipe the field with me on a speed ball field, hell one of the guys that started playing with us this weekend has played competive speedball for 10 years, and never played woodsball until this weekend. He got shot to **edited**, I never seen someone run around so much in the woods, but he had a good time. I think there is a big difference between being shot by someone from 15 feet when you were looking straight at them and walking away not knowing where they were, and being shot by someone who just happend to be lucky enough to have you looking the other way.

But hey it's just my opinion, call it a mind set if you will, and yes to save face or to prove to everyone that you are right, you are sure to fire back with something like see there is no difference or, I was shooting at people from a concealed position so it counts as sniping, and you know if you can't see it then I guess thats why you play speed ball and I play only woods ball. And as for this disagreement, this is the end of it for me, I guess I really don't care much what you guys think anymore. I am however still going to share this mindset with other people on this site, if they choose to listen. Oh and do us all a favor, when someone like me comes on this site with a picture of their Tippmann gun remember you are on a Tippmann forum before you start cutting them apart telling them about how their, Tippmann made Stock, and Tippmann made Expansion chamber is useless.

 

You guys arguing about "secnario vs Milsim" are just spliting hairs, both types of guns can be used for both types of games [obviously one is better than the other for each situation] . I think it was prety obvious what the guy who started the thread was looking for though.

Also "procarbinefreak"  whats the point of trying to convince baewolf there is no such thing as snipers in paintball. Are you really trying to help him out, are you trying to open his eyes to the truth or are you just trying to be RIGHT. seriously, why do you care about him being a sniper so much, you probably will never even play with him. i dont know him either, im just pointing out that you are just playing devils advocate and arguing a problem with no right answer.

Baewolf wrote: usafpilot07 wrote: My 1337 sn1pp3r g47 Mantis Factory Owned Alias Intimidator Infamous Board Custom Humphry Noid Matching Dye Ultralite (14” n’ 16” fronts) CP Reg Custom Design Delrin Bolt (1 of 2 designed for Mantis) Hybrid Ram & Sleeve CCM Clamping Feedneck Dark (?) Trigger Guard CP Swoop Trigger Bob Long Panels Hybrid Grenade Grips Stiffi Barrel M6 Tadao CP Trigger EDIT: How's that for a timmy sucking Baewolf? Oh I'm sorry did you take that comment to heart, it actually was not directed at you. It was in the context of a conversation. And I won't say that your gun sucks, for a speed ball gun it looks quite expensive and interesting. Not a scenerio gun, and I am not big on the color floresent green. But hey if this mantis thingy is what you like then, hey all the power too you.

Speedball is a type of scenario you play out.

usafpilot07 wrote: My 1337 sn1pp3r g47 Mantis Factory Owned Alias Intimidator Infamous Board Custom Humphry Noid Matching Dye Ultralite (14” n’ 16” fronts) CP Reg Custom Design Delrin Bolt (1 of 2 designed for Mantis) Hybrid Ram & Sleeve CCM Clamping Feedneck Dark (?) Trigger Guard CP Swoop Trigger Bob Long Panels Hybrid Grenade Grips Stiffi Barrel M6 Tadao CP Trigger EDIT: How's that for a timmy sucking Baewolf?

Oh I'm sorry did you take that comment to heart, it actually was not directed at you. It was in the context of a conversation. And I won't say that your gun sucks, for a speed ball gun it looks quite expensive and interesting. Not a scenerio gun, and I am not big on the color floresent green. But hey if this mantis thingy is what you like then, hey all the power too you.

Edited by Baewolf - 19 March 2006 at 5:49pm

that so far is the best scenario gun that i have ever seen....really nice gun u got there

two things ive noticed.

1: this is the longest "post your gear here" thread ive ever seen

2: EVERY BLEEDIN SCENARIO POST HAS TO HAVE SOME RETARDED SNIPER ARGUMENT! IT DOESNT MATTER!

[/rant]

Baewolf wrote: Snake6 wrote: Baewolf wrote: Cool article from an x Canadian Sniper from the military, who started playing paintball, turns out he is from my Province. Some very useful tips, on woods ball play http://www.specialopspaintball.com/articles/sniperinterview. asp I suggest you read the article.. He is not a real Sniper. Yeah I did especially the part where the interviewer asked him the specifics on what area's he specialized in "What was your specialized area of training? In the Canadian army all soldiers are crossed trained as much as possible. This means that any individual soldier can do almost any job within the battalion. I was qualified as machine gunner, mortarman, mortar fire controller, wheeled vehicle driver, tracked vehicle driver, reconnaissance, and sniper." What are the primary similarities between paintball sniping and military (other than the obvious consequences of success or failure)? I find that the greatest similarity is sneaking into and shooting from a concealed position. Sniper       a marksman who shoots at people from a concealed place Sniper= A "marksman" shooting at someone from a concealed place

You're wrong.

The History of Military Sniping, and how it relates to the Game of Paintball.

Ok. So I got bored, and I am sick and tried of this stupid sniper debate. I got a Barnes and Noble gift card for Christmas, and didn’t know what else to get so I picked up several books on Military Snipers. Here are my findings.

< -- Note: Due to a problem with my code, you have to Highlight my rifle comparison tables to see them. It’s a bother, but if someone knows how to fix it, PM me. -- >

First lets go over the basics of what a sniper is, and what a sniper is not.

“A sniper…is considered a specialist, whose prime function is to kill selected high value targets at long range using superior skill and armament. A sharpshooter, by contrast, is a rifleman (proficient or otherwise) who acts in an opportunist manner, taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”

From SNIPER by Adrian Gilbert

Keep this in your mind as you read the rest of the article.

The American Revolution (1775-83)

Sniping first came onto the battlefield during the American Revolution. Standard infantry of this period were equipped with “Brown Bess” smoothbore muskets. The Continental Congress approves 10 independent companies, armed with long rifles. The men of these companies were the first snipers.

Comparison between the “Brown Bess” musket, and the Long Rifle.

“A soldiers musket, if not exceedingly ill bored (as many are), will strike the figure of a man at 80 yards: it may even at 100, but a soldier must be very unfortunate indeed who shall be wounded by a common musket at 150 yards, provided that the antagonist aims at him; as to firing at a man at 200 yards, with a common, musket, you might as well fire at the moon.” –British Major Hanger, on the “Brown Bess” musket

 In contrast, the American Long Rifle (as carried by the Irregular companies), was effective in ranges up to 300 yards, and headshots could be achieved at 200. At these ranges American Snipers picked-off high ranking British Officers. During the battle of Saratoga an American sniper brought down British General Simon Frasier from a range of 300 yards. Despite its advantages the long rifle had several disadvantages. Its slow reload time(2 shots a minute), and lack of bayonet fixture made it useful only as a skirmisher weapon, not for use as a standard infantry weapon.

	Long Rifle	Brown Bess Musket
Range:	300 yards	80 yards

As you can see from the table, the Rifle outranged the common muskets of the time by over 200 yards.

The War of Northern Aggression (American Civil War) (1861-65)

During the Civil War, the standard infantry rifles were the Enfield(for the south), and the Springfield(for the north). These were muzzleloading rifles with effective ranges up to 500 yards. The confederacy managed to acquire Witworth and Kerr rifles from Europe for their snipers. These rifles had an effective range of well over 1200 yards, and hits were reported at over 1500 yards.

Confederate Snipers were selected in a manner which has been used to select snipers in most present wars. The best men from each infantry regiment entered into shooting competitions. They were required to hit man-sized boards at 500 yards. The best shooters were given the prized Kerr and Witworth rifles. They then went through extensive training in the use of these rifles.

The snipers were warned never to get within 400 yards of the enemy, but to use their superior range, to keep the enemy at a safe distance.

	Kerr & Witworth Rifles	Enfield/Springfield Rifles
Range:	1200+ yards	500 yards.

 

World War I (1914-18)

US Snipers during World War I used modified, and accurized versions of  the standard service rifle the Springfield 1903, equipped with 2 to 4 power scopes. Snipers during the war mostly sniped from behind the MLR, the main trench line. These snipers were Infantrymen taken off the line, and equipped with scoped rifles. With their rifles they could pick the enemy off 3 or 4 trench lines back from the MLR. The marksmanship standard for infantry of the time was to be able to hit a standing man from around 100 yards. The snipers were trained to hit targets from over 500 yards.

World War II (1938-45)

World War II snipers were selected in different manners during the war. I will concentrate on the Marine Corps Snipers trained at Green’s Farm because the documentation of this school and its snipers is the best. There, snipers were instructed in 5 week courses in marksmanship, camouflage, and field craft. They were trained to approach a target using stealth and to eliminate the target from long distances. These snipers were required to hit a moving target at 500 yards, and to hit a stationary target at 1000. They were equipped much the same way as snipers in WWI  were. These snipers used accurized  versions of the M1903 Springfield service rifle, the A1 or A3 variants equipped with 2 or 4 power scopes. Marine Infantry qualified at 500 yards.

	M1 Garand	M1903A3
Range	500 yards	1000yards
Ammunition	.30-06	.30-06

Korea (1950-53)

Korea, in the latter part of the war turned into a bogged down war of attrition, looking somewhat like the trench warfare of WWI. This, alongside Korea’s terrain of rolling hills combined to make it prime sniper territory. Sniping tactics in Korea did not change much from the tactics of WWII so I will not elaborate on them. The rifles also remained the same. Snipers in Korea were equipped with 1903A3 Variant Springfield’s, and National Match M1’s(which were used in competition shooting because they were more accurate than the standard M1) Equipped with 4 power scopes(the M1D model). The accuracy of the M1 was not as good as that of the Springfield, due to the need to offset the scope, and have major Eye Relief built-in to the rifle due to the Clip Feed of the M1. These M1’s still were able to reach ranges of 500 yards accurately. In Korea the use of the .50 caliber round for sniping was first seen. M2 Machine Guns mounted with a 10 power scope were able to reach ranges of 2800 yards effectively, Snipers also experimented with .55 Caliber Boy’s antitank rifles modified to take .50 caliber rounds, and mounted with scopes which had the same range as the M2, but was able to be carried by a man whereas the M2’s were limited to fixed positions.

	M1D Sniper Model	M1903A3 Sniper	M2 Machine Gun
Range	500 yards	1000 yards	2500 yards
Ammunition	.30-06	.30-06	.50 Caliber

 

Vietnam (1965-75)

Vietnam is the perfect example of how a sniper can be employed during combat. The restrictive ROE and vast open fields and rice paddy’s of Vietnam became prime sniper territory. The Marine Corps and the Army both Fielded Snipers. Army snipers were equipped with accurized versions of the M14 service rifle, accurate out to 700 yards. The Marine Corps fielded snipers equipped with Winchester Model 70 Hunting rifles firing the .30-06 cartridge, and later in the war snipers carried the M40, which fired the standard 7.62x51mm(.308) cartridge both of these rifles had an effective range of over 1000 yards. Also snipers used modified M2 .50 caliber machine guns, fitted with scopes. These were accurate to ranges out to 2500 yards. Normal infantry of the time fired the M16 Assault Rifle, and the enemy fired the AK-47 assault rifle. These rifles were designed for infantry combat which takes place in ranges of only around 200 yards, and can only be fired accurately up to 500 yards. Thus snipers were able to operate with impunity from beyond the range of effective return fire of the enemy.

	M16	Winchester 70	M40	M14 Sniper
Range	500 yards	1000 yards	1000 Yards	700 yards
Ammunition	5.56mm	.30-06	7.62x51mm	7.62x51mm

Now through all these wars several things have remained in common among snipers, lets analyze these facts:

A sniper acts independently from standard infantry, not as a part of a unit but in a one or two man team.

This is possible in paintball, most of the time in scenario games, I am alone behind enemy lines trying to accomplish a mission. But you do very little if any tactical good for your team waiting in one spot for an entire game, hoping a target of high-value (such as the opposing general) walks by.

A sniper does not act at random, he selects targets of high value and eliminates them.

Targets of High Value in a military sense are:

1. Officers:
• Generals
• Field Grade officers
• Company Grade officers
2. Forward Observers
3. Crew Served Weaponry:
• Heavy Machine Guns
• Artillery Batteries
• Mortar Crews
4. Non Commissioned Officers
5. Radiomen

Targets of High Value in Paintball:

1. Generals
2. Tank Crewman (if there are tanks)
3. Um…. Yeah… that’s all I can think of...

The problem with selecting high value targets in a scenario paintball game is, there are very few. The vast majority of players play independently, not under any command and they do what they want. What officers and team captains there are do not look any different than any other players.

The Sniper fires at targets from beyond the range of return fire by the standard infantry weapons, or from distances that were beyond the training of the normal infantryman.

As you can see from the diagrams of the Sniper Rifles of the Period in comparison to the standard issue infantry weapons, the sniper rifle always has a great deal more range than infantry weapons, and the sniper has been trained to an accuracy standard that is beyond that of standard infantry training.

This is where sniping in paintball fails. All paintball markers except those equipped with the Flatline or Apex systems fire the same distance, around 25 yards or 75 feet. The Flatline will reach ranges of up to 150 ft, but because the ball loses velocity at the same rate as a normal paintball, the chances of getting a break, or a single accurate shot at those ranges are close to zero.

The sniper uses a single accurate shot to take his targets down.

The ammunition expended to kill ratio of a sniper in Vietnam was 1.7 rounds per kill. The average infantryman expended 50,000 rounds per confirmed kill.

It is possible to take targets down with a single shot in paintball. However it is near impossible to eliminate a target with a single shot from beyond the effective range of return fire by the enemy.

A sniper uses camouflage and concealment to hide himself from his enemies to eliminate his targets.

No qualms with this, it can be done. Most every scenario paintball player does it. Using camouflage doe not make you sniper.

 

 

Now as you can see there are several places where sniping fails in paintball. Now look at the definition of a Sharpshooter:

“A sharpshooter… is a rifleman (proficient or otherwise) who acts in an opportunist manner, taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”

From SNIPER by Adrian Gilbert

Ok, this looks a little more feasible in the game of paintball than the sniper definition doesn’t it?

For paintball purposes we can strike rifleman, because there are no rifles in paintball.

“who acts in an opportunist manner, taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”

This sounds feasible. The definition of a sniper that Spec Ops puts forth is one of an “ambush player” that fires from concealment, using camouflage. The problem with the Spec Ops definition of a sniper is that it perfectly describes the definition of a sharpshooter in a military sense.

So we will set forth the definition of a Sharpshooter in paintball. This is what most of you would call a Sniper in paintball.

A sharpshooter takes shots from concealment, shoots at targets as the opportunity arises, and uses a marker that has the same range as everyone else’s. This is not a Sniper. This is a sharpshooter. You will never be a sniper in paintball simple ballistics prevent this from ever happening.

The fact of the matter is if you think you are a sniper in paintball, your terminology is wrong. The definition of a sharpshooter, fits paintball a lot closer that the definition of a sniper. But for those of you who insist that you are still snipers, look at an analogy: You work for a living. Your job is to go to people’s houses and businesses, to pick up their trash and take it to the dump. You drive a Garbage Truck. What would you be called, a Garbage Man, or a Professional Truck Driver?

You would be called a Garbage Man, would you not? As much as you would prefer to be called a Professional Truck Driver, everyone would call you a Garbage Man because it fits what you are doing better than the title Professional Truck Driver does.

 

The definition of Sharpshooter, or a Designated Marksman fits what you are doing in paintball a whole lot better than Sniper does. Stop fooling yourself.

 

References:

 

SNIPER- Adrian Gilbert

One Shot-One Kill- Charles W. Sasser and Craig Roberts

Marine Sniper- Charles Henderson

 

Authors Note: In my haste of writing this, I may have gotten some minor facts mixed up, or in the wrong place. Please contact me with the correct info if you have something to add, or a correction.

Snake6 wrote: Baewolf wrote: Cool article from an x Canadian Sniper from the military, who started playing paintball, turns out he is from my Province. Some very useful tips, on woods ball play http://www.specialopspaintball.com/articles/sniperinterview. asp I suggest you read the article.. He is not a real Sniper.

Yeah I did especially the part where the interviewer asked him the specifics on what area's he specialized in
"What was your specialized area of training?
In the Canadian army all soldiers are crossed trained as much as possible. This means that any individual soldier can do almost any job within the battalion. I was qualified as machine gunner, mortarman, mortar fire controller, wheeled vehicle driver, tracked vehicle driver, reconnaissance, and sniper."

What are the primary similarities between paintball sniping and military (other than the obvious consequences of success or failure)?
I find that the greatest similarity is sneaking into and shooting from a concealed position.

Sniper

      a marksman who shoots at people from a concealed place

Sniper= A "marksman" shooting at someone from a concealed place


 

Edited by Baewolf - 18 March 2006 at 5:03pm

Baewolf wrote: Cool article from an x Canadian Sniper from the military, who started playing paintball, turns out he is from my Province. Some very useful tips, on woods ball play http://www.specialopspaintball.com/articles/sniperinterview. asp

I suggest you read the article..

He is not a real Sniper.