Spyders vs Tippmanns

I'll give you a full dissertation on the subject, but first I need to eat dinner. Check back in about 45min and I'll lay it all out for you.

-Tallen

Alright. Back in the mid to late 90's the two undisputed champions of the mid-priced semi-autos were the Kingman International Corp and Tippmann Pneumatics Inc. Kingman arose in 1992 when it was created by Arthur Chang to produce the Kingman Spyder paintball marker as an inexpensive alternative to the other markers available at the time such as the PMI-3 (also known as the VM-68) and the Tippmann SMG/.68 Special series of markers.

Out of the BE/Tippmann/PMI/ACI/Kingman/ICD/anyone else who wanted to produce a blow-back semi competition, Tippmann and Kingman came out on top. Tippmann has always done well since the pro-series markers first came out. The Pro-Am and it's lighter cousin the Pro-Lite have been the staples of field rentals since their inception in the mid 1990s, and thus are the marker brand that most people get in their hands first. Kingman did well to promote their markers as an "upgraded before you even buy it" product that had a lot of bells and whistles built right in. Many of their upgrades had little to no performance factor on the marker and were mere eye candy. That's where the whole Tippmann vs Spyder debate starts.

Tippmann started out as a miniature-replica fire-arms and pneumatic sewing equipment (namely for the leather fabrication industry) company. When the Brady Bill was introduced in 1986, Dennis Tippmann Sr. had to quit making his .17 and .22cal replica machine-guns and decided to turn his hand to paintball which incorporated his knowledge of both fire-arms and fluid dynamics. Thus, most of Tippmann's products are built to last. Often heavy, never very pretty out of the box, and originally machined out of steel rather than aluminum, they are virtually impossible to break. Add in the fact the the early tippmanns were designed to work off of siphoned CO2, and the effects of either cold or hot weather weren't factors in the marker's performance. They were designed to run off of high-volumes of 800-850psi gas. Add in the fact that you could run over one with your car and then leave it to rust for a year, pull it out, hook up a tank and it'd fire just like it was supposed to, and you can see how they developed a reputation for making quality goods. Tippmann also has continued to use proprietary valve designs giving them superior operating characteristics year-round.

Kingman, on the other hand, has always machined their markers out of of aluminum which, while very strong and light, doesn't stand up to as much punishment. Also, with the introduction of the Shutter-series markers in the late 1990's, they began to trade reliability (which they had with the SE and Classic-series spyders) for flashiness and those "bells and whistles" I spoke of earlier. They also continued to rely off of old valve technology (using Sheridan style internals adapted for semi-auto use) which wasn't created with the idea of semi-auto in mind. Due to that fact, Spyders tended to act up in colder weather conditions which made them rather unsuitable for year-round play. The main fault of the system is that Liquid CO2 can enter the valve of a Spyder and freeze the plastic valve seal (known as a cup seal) which changes the physical properties of the plastic and keeps it from properly sealing the valve. This leads to the classic "air-down-the-barrel" leak that is one of the most common issues with Kingman markers. This was easily solved by the addition of a filtering or "staged" expansion chamber like Kingman included on the rather well engineered SE, but was (and still is) an expensive upgrade to pay for should you want to play in colder climates or fire rapidly. In addition, the velocity adjustment on Spyder markers is achieved through increasing tension on the marker's drive spring which not only causes the spring to wear out faster, but also leads to wild fluctuations in velocity compared to an air-flow interruption method like tippmann and PMI and ACI eventually used. Kingman was also one of the first marker companies to outsource to China and Taiwan for manufacturing. The lower quality of parts often lead to malfunctions including but not limited to broken linkage pins, malfunctioning Rear Velocity Adjusters, and even cracked valves. The use of metric fittings and non-standardized (non NPT sized) threading for their ASAs and valve chambers also caused great trouble when people attempted to repair or upgrade their markers. For these reasons, in the late 1990s and early 2000's, the sport saw a lot of frustrated Spyder owners switch over to Tippmann or even make the jump to WGP or AGD products. Die-Hard Kingman fans would insist that their markers were just as good if not better than Tippmann or other mid-range markers despite the issues with reliability. This sparked off the continued debate as to who made better markers, etc.

Kingman has since revised their marker line and has begun to bring themselves back into the mainstream and establish a good reputation again. The first marker post SE that I liked was the original X-Tra which was the first non-expensive vertical-feed marker. It was simple, it worked, and it made a big difference in how well the marker fired. The X-tra has since been re-engineered and cheapened but it was a step in the right direction for the company.

After the introduction of the Extra, Kingman rapidly introduced an e-grip frame which allowed for fast rates of fire, as well as their first electro-pneumatic marker, the EM-1 which was basically a Bushmaster 2K knock-off that performed rather well. The EM-1 was short lived due to patent discrepancies and suits against other companies over electro-pneumatic markers, but it was a fine marker for it's time. The e-grip also appeared around the same time for the Tippmann '98 which quickly negated the advantage of the Spyder especially with the CVX valve being able to handle liquid CO2 rather well.

Anyway, I'm sure that's more than you really wanted to know, but Kingman basically threw their reputation out the window when they stopped making the SE and Classic in favor of the Shutter, 2000, and other "flashy" yet poorly designed markers. It took them a while to recover but the damage was done. Out of the two mid-range mechanical semi companies to survive, Tippmann garnered more respect for reliability, ease and variety of upgrades, and their impeccable customer service. What you experience today is a throwback to all of that.

You're still going to run into the weather issue even with the VS1. The x-chamber that is on there is more like a gas-thru grip which doesn't give much of a filtering/expansion property like you need for the high volume of fire you're going to get. That, in turn, will give you frozen valve seals which will cause the marker to leak, etc etc. If you're going to run a sear-tripping electro, either get a much better expansion chamber, a palmer's stabilizer, or go HPA.

The VS series isn't that great. I didn't say kingman started building AS GOOD as Tippmann, but just that they got better than their absolute rock-bottom, and trust me, that was BAD. I saw a linkage pin shatter on one and throw the bolt back into some kid's goggles cracking them severely. Better is relative, better than goggle shattering does not equal minimal issues.

Now, in all fairness, one of my friends started out with a VS-3 and didn't have much to complain about other than he felt he over-paid when he saw he could pick up a DM-5 at the time for only a little more cash. If you're going to spend that much money on a marker and use CO2 on it, you're going to be disappointed. If you want my personal opinion, I'd suggest saving up for an HPA tank and getting a Lasoya Pro-Master from ICD for the same price that you'll pay for that VS-1. The Pro-Master is a tournament ready marker that would own a VS-1 almost any day of the week. Not only that, but it is a true electro-pneumatic marker, not just a sear-tripper.

or, even better get this:
WGP Super-Stock SF w/HPA Tank and Revvy
It'll definitely blow away a VS-1 and has an HPA tank included for only $239.00 including shipping. Mind you, you'll eventually want to upgrade to a better HPA tank, but for that price, it's the steal of a century. You get a high-class marker that has literally thousands of available upgrades with everything you need to make it work well.

Edited by tallen702 - 15 October 2007 at 10:29pm

Well, where do you live? Are there any paintball shops around? Does the field have the ability to fill hpa? Call around and find out before making that kind of a jump.

Given the price of Tippmann markers, you can usually get a new or used marker that performs better for a similar amount of money (promasters, freestyles, older pms, older dms, older angels, autocockers, etc).

In that regard, spyders win out because they generally cost less than most Tippmanns, making it a cheap marker for the new player. As a result there is still a financial incentive per say to buy a spyder, but less so to buy a Tippmann of you are aware of the options available to you (most players that buy either marker are new to paintball, and do not know any better).

I suggest you get a promaster, autococker, or freestyle.

ive been looking around and my gun ideas are now a promaster, tippman (though probably not), a superstock or a vs1 or vs2. The only problem with tippman (98 im looking at) is that i find it to long, tho the next time i go the my local field ima rent instead of using my victor just to see. And then all the other ones beside VS1 as far as i know are HPA only so im still iffy about HPA in my area

Ah. Well, then you are forgiven! 

Well, I must admit, I've been watching a lot of "Dirty Jobs" with Mike Rowe recently and he says "Poo" quite a bit. Just came naturally.

If you're looking to upgrade and dont want CO2, go with a Tippmann. I wouldn't suggest one of the promasters or anything unless you're getting a good hopper and HPA with it. Your victor with CO2 and a regular hopper is better than a high-end electronic gun with CO2 and a regular hopper.

Tippmann/Spyder with CO2+Reg. Hopper=8BPS give or take in Semi

High end marker with CO2+Reg. Hopper (without eyes) unless used very carefully=Frozen 'noid, damaged reg, and a helluva lotta breaks.