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Hypocrisy (Warning--Health Care Thread)--updated

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote God Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2010 at 7:42pm
I meant  what was the question from the reporter (btw, those are not questions)....

As for your first quote, the transcript reads:

"BAIER: You have said at least four times in the past two weeks: "the United States Congress owes the American people a final up or down vote on health care." So do you support the use of this Slaughter rule? The deem and pass rule, so that Democrats avoid a straight up or down vote on the Senate bill?

OBAMA: Here's what I think is going to happen and what should happen. You now have a proposal from me that will be in legislation, that has the toughest insurance reforms in history, makes sure that people are able to get insurance even if they've got preexisting conditions, makes sure that we are reducing costs for families and small businesses, by allowing them to buy into a pool, the same kind of pool that members of Congress have."

My Interpretation: Baier asked the President about a procedure that may or may not happen to pass health care. Obama answers that the point is not how it passes that matters but what passes that matters.

Proof of my point:

"OBAMA: What I can tell you is that the vote that's taken in the House will be a vote for health care reform. And if people vote yes, whatever form that takes, that is going to be a vote for health care reform. And I don't think we should pretend otherwise."

Next quote of your addresses this interaction:

Baier: "Let me insert this. We asked our viewers to e-mail in suggested questions. More than 18,000 people took time to e-mail us questions. These are regular people from all over the country. Lee Johnson, from Spring Valley, California: "If the bill is so good for all of us, why all the intimidation, arm twisting, seedy deals, and parliamentary trickery necessary to pass a bill, when you have an overwhelming majority in both houses and the presidency?"

Obama's reply: OBAMA: Bret, I get 40,000 letters or e-mails a day.

Baier interrupts with BAIER: I know.

OBAMA: I could read the exact same e-mail —

Again Baier interrupts: BAIER: These are people. It's not just Washington punditry.

OBAMA: I've got the exact same e-mails, that I could show you, that talk about why haven't we done something to make sure that I, a small business person, am getting as good a deal as members of Congress are getting, and don't have my insurance rates jacked up 40 percent? Why is it that I, a mother with a child with a preexisting condition, still can't get insurance?

So the issue that I'm concerned about is whether not we're fixing a broken system.


My interpretation of that exchange: Baier tries to intimidate with large numbers of people upset with pending health care legislation. Obama counters with two-times the number in support of his side. Baier tries to defend his now smaller number of emails with a sympathy cry: "But these are real people with fears!" Obama counters with his even bigger sympathy retort with: "These are real people with real problems." 


The fox reporter was looking for the President to contradict himself (and later have his fellow talking heads to scream about how weak he is and a flip-flopper) and the President deflected those attempts by not directly answering the questions while still making the points that he wanted to make.

Reporter and new channel's thinking: Lets ask the President questions about legislative procedures that have existed forever and have been used by both parties. After he/she answers, lets attack same procedures in attempt to discredit legislation. If president doesnt follow our script lets attack president.


When I scroll quickly pass your sig line, my mind always interprets it to read: Too close for submissives, I'm switching to nuns!



Edited by God - 18 March 2010 at 7:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote God Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2010 at 7:46pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

 If the health care reform is so darn important someone needs to grow a pair and just say "this is how we're going to get it through."  (I wouldn't like him any better, but I would respect him a bit more.)

To me, that is exactly what he is saying without actually saying it. 

 BAIER: You have said at least four times in the past two weeks: "the United States Congress owes the American people a final up or down vote on health care." So do you support the use of this Slaughter rule? The deem and pass rule, so that Democrats avoid a straight up or down vote on the Senate bill?

OBAMA: Here's what I think is going to happen and what should happen. You now have a proposal from me that will be in legislation, that has the toughest insurance reforms in history, makes sure that people are able to get insurance even if they've got preexisting conditions, makes sure that we are reducing costs for families and small businesses, by allowing them to buy into a pool, the same kind of pool that members of Congress have.


AKA: Just get the bill passed and done.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mod98commando Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2010 at 9:54pm
Originally posted by God God wrote:



The fox reporter was looking for the President to contradict himself (and later have his fellow talking heads to scream about how weak he is and a flip-flopper)..

I don't doubt that people like Beck, Hannity, and O'Reilly were just waiting for him to say something they could hammer him on. However...

and the President deflected those attempts by not directly answering the questions while still making the points that he wanted to make.

If there was nothing shady going on here then sharing the facts, explaining what they are trying to pass, and answering the questions would gain them support. Don't you think it's a little worrying that they're being so vague and dodging all questions and criticisms, especially on something this important?

Reporter and new channel's thinking: Lets ask the President questions about legislative procedures that have existed forever and have been used by both parties. After he/she answers, lets attack same procedures in attempt to discredit legislation. If president doesnt follow our script lets attack president.

Maybe you're right and they do have an agenda to smear the president's image but look at the questions he's dodging. These questions are things that people have every right to want answers to and he should be explaining things to us all so that we understand why he thinks this bill is so super fantastic. Let's use a hypothetical situation or two:

Situation 1: The detective and the suspect

A suspect is interrogated due to reports that they witnessed a murder. The suspect was present during the crime and saw what happened so the detective asks them to identify/describe the killer. The suspect responds by telling them he saw a murder and the victim is dead. The detective reminds them that this information is important. The suspect then responds by telling them that who did it isn't important and that the important thing is that the victim is dead.

Situation 2: The used car salesman and the customer

A customer goes to his local Honda dealer to get a used car and asks a salesman for information about the Accord he was looking at. He asks how it runs, to which the salesman replies, "it has power windows and seats just like my brand new Accord". Confused, the customer asks why it smells like coolant and requests to pop the hood to which the salesman replies, "It's a great car but you have to buy it now! Hurry!".


Now I'm sure some of you are thinking, "hey, those questions and answers aren't really analogous to the Obama interview questions and answers." but that would mean you're missing the point. The point is that in both of those situations the person being questioned was dodging even though the questions were reasonable. In either case, would you not suspect that these people were hiding something? If the suspect from situation 1 was just a witness and not involved in the crime, would they be dodging questions about the killer's identity? Would the salesman in situation 2 be dodging questions about the condition of the car if there wasn't something wrong with it? This is exactly why many people don't like that Obama is dodging simple questions about this bill while simultaneously claiming that we need to pass it immediately. I don't expect him to go on TV and have story time with us while he reads the whole bill but he could at least provide a more detailed explanation for his urgency other than saying the equivalent of  "this bill is TIGHT yo!".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote God Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2010 at 1:23am
Obama isnt writing the legislation. Congress is. This piece of legislation will be changing up until the final writing of the bill, or when it is posted online. Reid or Pelosi are the people to be asking the specifics of this bill not the President for they are more involved than Obama is. He may offer suggestions what he wants to see in the bill but last I check the Congress is in a different branch of the government than the President is.

Obama's role is to sell the bill to the public as a positive not know the finer/ super specifics. Just as you would not ask the salesman person what the thread count of the seat belt strap and expect them to know especially if the factory is still sewing the said strap. Certainly you do not expect the sales person to have an opinion as to the process of how the car is made.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2010 at 7:27am

See that is what bothers me to no end on this whole thing. Obama keeps claiming credit for this bill. He refers to "my bill" over and over. And yet he had nothing to do with it.

 
2,700 pages... Plus the new revisions under reconciliation.
 
 
 
Well, here is what we know for a fact.
 
This bill covers 6 years of healthcare that takes 10 years to pay for... So it will bust the budget when it actually has to pay 1 year for 1 years services. (according to history, which is a lot more accurate than guessing government costs, since they always go up...)
 
 
This bill will increase our insurance costs... Even though the President has lied countless times saying we would "save money, and all get raises from our employers if this passes"...
 
 
This bill increases the power of the IRS to come after you if you don't have insurance... So a "choice" of not having insurance could send you to jail... If you choose to follow the constitution and not pay because the government doesn't have the power to force you to buy something.
 
Oh, and you can "keep your doctor"... unless he is one of the 45% who quit medicine over this fiasco...
 
Overall, this bill is a power grab, to give the government power to regulate 1/6 of the economy. While breaking the rules set out by the constitution. This should be a state issue. But, as usual the people no longer are in control of our government, it is run by progressives who are much smarter than any of us, so they know how to take care of us.
 
Notice how this website mirrors the msm today?...
 
It is just a matter of time before they tell you how much you can make, and how much you deserve to keep...
 
Oh wait, they already do that.
 
 
 
 
 
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to compass their ends than that good men should look on and
do nothing.
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English economist and philosopher


Edited by FreeEnterprise - 19 March 2010 at 7:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2010 at 10:28am
I was going to respond again to God's question, but . . . wow . . . mod98commando answered way better than I would have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2010 at 10:36am
I thought this article was pretty good about the Baier interview...
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2010 at 10:43am
wow... This bill will mean the end of private colleges.
 
 
 

But the 153 pages of changes to the massive health care package include extra money for hospitals in Tennessee that serve large numbers of low-income patients. And though the bill would revamp the nation's student loan system to make the government the only lender, one bank — the state-owned Bank of North Dakota — would be allowed to continue making student loans.

 
 
So based on the past, when you control the money, you control the content. And private colleges will be forced to accept the governments recommendations dictations concerning the method of education.
 
This bill will destroy our education system as we know it.
 
 
 
 
 
and here I thought it was to reign in health care costs... Ha..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2010 at 11:18am
Originally posted by freeenterprise freeenterprise wrote:

I thought this article was pretty good about the Baier interview...
 


It was.

This sums it up nicely  (bolding added for emphasis):

Originally posted by fe's article fe's article wrote:

. . . the most revealing and important broadcast interview of Barack Obama ever. It revealed his primary weakness in speaking of health care, which is a tendency to dodge, obfuscate and mislead. He grows testy when challenged. It revealed what the president doesn't want revealed, which is that he doesn't want to reveal much about his plan. This furtiveness is not helpful in a time of high public anxiety.


Edited addition:  Because I realized there were aspects of God's question that still needed to be addressed*.  (Bolding again added for emphasis.)

Originally posted by God God wrote:

I meant  what was the question from the reporter (btw, those are not questions)....

As for your first quote, the transcript reads:

"BAIER: You have said at least four times in the past two weeks: "the United States Congress owes the American people a final up or down vote on health care." So do you support the use of this Slaughter rule? The deem and pass rule, so that Democrats avoid a straight up or down vote on the Senate bill?

OBAMA: Here's what I think is going to happen and what should happen. You now have a proposal from me that will be in legislation, that has the toughest insurance reforms in history, makes sure that people are able to get insurance even if they've got preexisting conditions, makes sure that we are reducing costs for families and small businesses, by allowing them to buy into a pool, the same kind of pool that members of Congress have."

My Interpretation: Baier asked the President about a procedure that may or may not happen to pass health care. Obama answers that the point is not how it passes that matters but what passes that matters.

Which is avoiding the question.

Proof of my point:

"OBAMA: What I can tell you is that the vote that's taken in the House will be a vote for health care reform. And if people vote yes, whatever form that takes, that is going to be a vote for health care reform. And I don't think we should pretend otherwise."

Which is accurate but does not actually address whether or not he supports the use of this procedure, which was in the bolded part of the question.  (So, I guess that actually makes it proof of my point.)

Next quote of your addresses this interaction:

Baier: "Let me insert this. We asked our viewers to e-mail in suggested questions. More than 18,000 people took time to e-mail us questions. These are regular people from all over the country. Lee Johnson, from Spring Valley, California: "If the bill is so good for all of us, why all the intimidation, arm twisting, seedy deals, and parliamentary trickery necessary to pass a bill, when you have an overwhelming majority in both houses and the presidency?"

The above was bolded because it is a very good question.  A question that is specifically not answered in the President's reply below.

Obama's reply: OBAMA: Bret, I get 40,000 letters or e-mails a day.
Baier tries to defend his now smaller number of emails with a sympathy cry: "But these are real people with fears!" Obama counters with his even bigger sympathy retort with: "These are real people with real problems." 

Baier interrupts with BAIER: I know.

OBAMA: I could read the exact same e-mail —

Again Baier interrupts: BAIER: These are people. It's not just Washington punditry.

OBAMA: I've got the exact same e-mails, that I could show you, that talk about why haven't we done something to make sure that I, a small business person, am getting as good a deal as members of Congress are getting, and don't have my insurance rates jacked up 40 percent? Why is it that I, a mother with a child with a preexisting condition, still can't get insurance?

So the issue that I'm concerned about is whether not we're fixing a broken system.

Which is an issue everyone is concerned about; however, it does not answer the question.  (But it begs the different question that if we are actually fixing a broken system why all the chicanery to pass the bill; shouldn't it stand on its own merits?)

My interpretation of that exchange: Baier tries to intimidate with large numbers of people upset with pending health care legislation. . . .

Possibly, or possibly he is showing the basis for why he is asking the specific question that is continually avoided. 

. . . . Obama counters with two-times the number in support of his side. . . . .

Actually, he doesn't.  He counters with two time the number of e-mails without specifying whether they support the bill or not.  (And, I would like to point out that Baier never specified the support/non-support content of his e-mails either.  My personal bet is that both of them are receiving a mixed bag and picking out the ones they want.)  The support/non-support levels are probably fairly even, but without an actual majority of the population being in favor (based on recent news--link). 

. . . Baier now tries to defend his now smaller number of emails with a sympathy cry:  "But these are real people with fears!"  Obama counters with his even bigger sympathy retort with: "These are real people with real problems."

Which is just another way of avoiding answering the question.  There are "real people with real problems," however, how is avoiding a direct question regarding the procedure used to pass the bill going to help/hurt those people?  If it is a good bill, worthy of passing, it shouldn't.  If it is a questionable bill, with the potential to do more long term damage than good that must be passed through parliamentary trickery, then we don't need it; but we do need to know the President's position on such maneuverings to accurately judge his fitness (in the mind's of each voter) to occupy the office he holds.  Both sympathy ploys are BS, the fact is the President is not answering a legitimate question because he doesn't want to be put in the position of later trying to defend what is essentially an indefensible maneuver.  The fact that such maneuvers are necessary to protect the careers of those who vote for the bill from their constituents is very telling regarding actual support for the bill.  (The fact that the Democrats think the public will be stupid enough later to fall for the "I didn't actually vote for it" line is just insulting.  As is the President thinking that the public will believe his "I never supported the procedure" line that he may have to use later.)

. . . The fox reporter was looking for the President to contradict himself (and later have his fellow talking heads to scream about how weak he is and a flip-flopper) and the President deflected those attempts by not directly answering the questions while still making the points that he wanted to make.

He might have been looking for the President to contradict himself, but unless the President has previously stated that the use of this approach is unacceptable answering the question would not be a contradiction.  And, if the President is on record about this procedure not being a legitimate tactic, then allowing it to be used is just as hypocritical as openly supporting its use.  The only difference is that avoiding the question adds a lack of integrity layer on top of the hypocrisy pile.

Reporter and new channel's thinking: Lets ask the President questions about legislative procedures that have existed forever and have been used by both parties. After he/she answers, lets attack same procedures in attempt to discredit legislation. If president doesnt follow our script lets attack president.

Probably.  (It worked for the last eight years with different players, why stop now?)

When I scroll quickly pass your sig line, my mind always interprets it to read: Too close for submissives, I'm switching to nuns!

That works too.



*Heh heh, I'm talking to God, fe is probably soooooo  jealous.

Edited by Mack - 19 March 2010 at 12:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2010 at 2:57pm
Na, you're allowed... I talk to him all the time.
 
 
Didja see this?
 
 
 
wow... impressive manipulation going on...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mod98commando Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2010 at 7:03pm
Originally posted by God God wrote:

Obama isnt writing the legislation. Congress is. This piece of legislation will be changing up until the final writing of the bill, or when it is posted online. Reid or Pelosi are the people to be asking the specifics of this bill not the President for they are more involved than Obama is. He may offer suggestions what he wants to see in the bill but last I check the Congress is in a different branch of the government than the President is.


True but last time I checked, Obama was one of the people constantly telling us how great this bill is and that we should support it. Is it unreasonable to ask him for details about why he so strongly supports it? And is it not suspicious that he would so blatantly refuse to explain?

Originally posted by God God wrote:


Obama's role is to sell the bill to the public as a positive not know the finer/ super specifics. Just as you would not ask the salesman person what the thread count of the seat belt strap and expect them to know especially if the factory is still sewing the said strap. Certainly you do not expect the sales person to have an opinion as to the process of how the car is made.


Obviously Pelosi and Reid will know more but if Obama is supposed to be selling this to us he better know something about it. He must at least know enough to know it's good so can't he tell us a little more than nothing? The car salesman probably won't know the thread count of the seat belt strap but who would ask that? He could tell you about the condition of the car because that's something a buyer would ask and it helps him determine what to sell it for or, if the condition is good, it could be what makes the sale. Obama was not asked for obscure information at all. He knew the answers but was seemingly afraid to share them.

To use your own counter-example, if the salesman knew the answer to the seat belt question (had a manual in front of him or something) yet refused to tell you, would you not wonder if maybe it was out of spec or something? It just doesn't make sense to not answer a question you know the answer to when you supposedly have nothing to hide. So then one must wonder what exactly it is he's trying to hide and whether or not it's something to be concerned over. I personally dislike it immensely when people do that and I refuse to trust him until he starts showing that he deserves it. I'm amazed that you don't see anything wrong with what he's doing, regardless of the topic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2010 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

See that is what bothers me to no end on this whole thing. Obama keeps claiming credit for this bill. He refers to "my bill" over and over. And yet he had nothing to do with it.



Originally posted by FE FE wrote:

Obamacare


Originally posted by FE FE wrote:

Abortion is covered in Obamacare


Originally posted by FE FE wrote:

She was pro choice, pro Obamacare


Originally posted by FE FE wrote:

Once Obamacare Passes

Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mod98commando Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2010 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

See that is what bothers me to no end on this whole thing. Obama keeps claiming credit for this bill. He refers to "my bill" over and over. And yet he had nothing to do with it.



Originally posted by FE FE wrote:

Obamacare


Originally posted by FE FE wrote:

Abortion is covered in Obamacare


Originally posted by FE FE wrote:

She was pro choice, pro Obamacare


Originally posted by FE FE wrote:

Once Obamacare Passes



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2010 at 12:37pm
So, the rules committee in the house is working on the rules prior to voting on health care tomorrow. 

Link related to above.

So, if they are voting on it tomorrow does anyone know where the latest version and potential changes are posted?

Originally posted by fe's article fe's article wrote:

Mr. Obama's response: "By the time the vote has taken place, not only will I know what's in it, you'll know what's in it, because it's going to be posted and everybody's going to be able to evaluate it on the merits."


Link for above.

Edited Addition:  A thought related to the above quote:  It almost seems as if the president is stating he won't know what is in the bill (and neither will anyone else) until after the vote.  Innocent misstatement or Freudian slip?

NB4 whining about not trusting the President by pointing out that trust is earned.






Edited by Mack - 20 March 2010 at 12:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2010 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:



So, the rules committee in the house is working on the rules prior to
voting on health care tomorrow.  Link
related to above.

So, if they are voting on it tomorrow does anyone know where the latest version and potential changes are posted?
The original bill and the package of changes are linked to at the bottom of this page: http://www.opencongress.org/articles/view/1744-Setting-the-Rules


There may be some more changes if the rules committee allows a manager amendment so Pelosi can change a few things to get more votes.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2010 at 4:02pm
pelosi said the same thing about "we have to pass it so we can find out what is in it..." earlier in the week.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2010 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

See that is what bothers me to no end on this whole thing. Obama keeps claiming credit for this bill. He refers to "my bill" over and over. And yet he had nothing to do with it.



Originally posted by FE FE wrote:

Obamacare


Originally posted by FE FE wrote:

Abortion is covered in Obamacare


Originally posted by FE FE wrote:

She was pro choice, pro Obamacare


Originally posted by FE FE wrote:

Once Obamacare Passes


Oops.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2010 at 4:34pm
They tremble at my name...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2010 at 11:04am
Mbro, thanks for the link.

Well it looks like it will be a straight vote as opposed to a deem and pass.  Good for them.  I think that if it passes this way it has a lot better chance of being accepted by the public.

Not to say that I still don't think this bill is a bad idea; when you have to show it's good for the deficit by balancing 6 years of benefits against 10 years of collection and stealing from Medicade (which is already short) there is no way the bill will reduce government spending.  But at least if it passes, it will be a legitimate vote.  I also think the "pass it now and pass the changes later" plan is setting us up for an enormous bait-and-switch.  Hopefully, I will be wrong on that.

There are still some amazing bribes and questionable spending left in the bill but, since this tends to be true of many bills, I will leave it to others to hash that out if they feel these are exceptionally onerous.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2010 at 11:08pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

I also think the "pass it now and pass the changes later" plan is setting us up for an enormous bait-and-switch. 
There are some OK cost control measures in this bill but not enough. They really need to hash out a new bill later trying to move away from fee for care where doctors bill for absolutely everything and over test, that combined with tort reform, could dramatically lower health care costs.

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
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