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Can't fail High School in DC

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Tolgak View Drop Down
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    Posted: 16 November 2010 at 5:08pm
Failure Impossible for HS Students

I've got an opinion on this but I have stuff to do for the next few hours. I'll just let the brew for now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2010 at 5:20pm
I have a lot of pros/cons that I would type out if i had the motivation to do so today. But, I don't, so I leave having only said this; If I had known in high school that I could wait until the last week of every semester to catch up and "learn" the curriculum without it effecting my grade, you can bet that the other 17 weeks of that semester would have entailed even more goofing off than they already did.



EDIT: INB4 Pariel


Edited by usafpilot07 - 16 November 2010 at 5:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2010 at 6:06pm
Another reason I bailed on the education world.

My father has been teaching for 12 years now, and a few years ago he had a senior failing one of his classes- which is needed to graduate. The administration called him in and told him to "do what you have to to make this kid pass so he can graduate."

My father told them that the kid had basically screwed off all semester and there was no possible way that the kid could make up all the work he hadn't done. The admins didn't care about that- they told him to pass the student, whatever it took.

My problem with that is, what about the kids who busted ass all semester and did what they were supposed to- only to have their performance matched by a some guy who didn't give a damn? Where does the incentive to even TRY anymore go?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2010 at 6:12pm
Grade inflation strikes again. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2010 at 6:13pm
^^^NB4FE rant on liberals.

Edit:  I think it's a bad idea.  Kids who get used to this are going to have a very unpleasant learning curve when they enter the work world


Edited by Mack - 16 November 2010 at 6:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2010 at 7:34pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2010 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

EDIT: INB4 Pariel


Liberal arts.

See, even FEaper can get behind this one: everyone knows that liberals, liberalism, and the liberal arts are by definition evil.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2010 at 8:31pm
I have about a month left of student-teaching and am starting to feel some frustration myself. Since standardized testing is all the rage, I make my tests a royal pain in the arse on the multiple choice questions and put nothing on it from reading that they need to know from memory. Students do not take their own book notes, and all test material comes directly from assigned and checked notes from powerpoint or from worksheets I have assigned. I devote the class immediately before the test to a review game and give them a study guide that they can fill out during the review game. Many of the brighter students don't bother with the study-guide because they are so used to being pampered with easy tests they assume they will be fine. The rest of the students make the study guides into paper airplanes, fail, then complain that their student teacher is unqualified, or that their specific disability prevents them from doing well. Today's tests on the constitution were so horrible I am going to spend close to half my class tomorrow and some time throughout the rest of the week teaching them how to study, and chewing them a new one. College courses on teaching philosophy are next to useless, i'm preparing to give the students a taste of their own medicine, ditch the hippie crap and do drill and kill lessons instead of all the multi-media, multiple learning style crap. If they want to do the bare minimum, I'm more than capable of doing well enough on my graded teaching by half-assing my pedagogy and leaning on content. As long as they have their individualized special ed needs met, fine. I can make it so they must study regularly and read, or sit silently and do worksheets instead of class discussions, debate, group-projects, movies etc. I'll have the fun w/ my advanced classes who won't screw around. Asking for higher-level thinking from students about interpretations of the constitution is pointless if they don't know what the constitution is after a month of talking about it. I'd also be fine with forcing random drug-testing of any student who has below a 70% average in any class, and same-sex classrooms at this point. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2010 at 9:19pm
Originally posted by rednekk98 rednekk98 wrote:

College courses on teaching philosophy are next to useless, i'm preparing to give the students a taste of their own medicine, ditch the hippie crap and do drill and kill lessons instead of all the multi-media, multiple learning style crap.


Be very careful here. Advisers are fairly fond of their magical fairy land. You've got to find a middle ground between doing what your school and your adviser wants- and what your students need. 

I equated the shattering of the illusion created by my college courses to backing a pickup through a stained glass window.

Welcome to the trenches. May you last longer than I did.

When I walked into my student teaching and the cooperating teacher told me that she tailored her lessons to last years standardized tests, my heart sank to my colon.

You don't teach content. You teach tests. Reason #1 I got out of it. I didn't mind a curriculum, but there's NO wiggle room. Everything is laid out nice and neat by the state, all you as a teacher do is regurgitate the same crap in a dozen different ways to fulfill your 'multiple learning style' standards.

Good luck man.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2010 at 9:31pm
Complete horse crap.

We don't have a failure option to be mean, we have a failure option as an incentive to try hard. 


Edited by Darur - 16 November 2010 at 9:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2010 at 9:44pm
If you look past the whole self-esteem thing, a few concepts here make sense.

The fear of failure doesn't apply in school. Student performance is based on individual desire for success, which in most cases an internal factor. The guys that do well will beat themselves up when they get a B. The mediocre students just pass. Students who fail don't really care.

Super hard parents or teachers don't help with this at all, considering it's the rebellious period of our development. In my case, my parents overreacted whenever I didn't get a B in a class. I felt completely stupid. They sent me to learning centers for [complete dumbasses] when I was in middle school. That kind of thing is very de-motivating. When the hands were off, I did well with my own motivation. I took all honors and AP classes throughout high school and got a pretty high SAT score without studying for the damn thing.

It's mostly up to the parents to teach their kids the value of success, and up to the education system to provide levels of learning that meet the kids' sweetspots. A smart kid perform poorly in an easy class due to sheer boredom. If anything, the education system could do better to keep kids in the classes they should be in. I knew too many people in honors classes that just didn't give a crap. They would even hold back the rest of the classes by arguing with the teachers for extra points.

IIRC, my school rewarded the people in honors classes with an honors GPA. Honors: A = 4.5, AP: A = 6. Trying to get to those numbers is like trying to catch something tasty on a piece of string above you. The good teachers would figuratively lower that string for a moment and raise it when we got just close enough to get it. They kept us into the material despite our internal motivations. Sadly that's not something an entire education system can address, it's up to the quality of the teachers and their years of experience.

Standards also have to be reasonable. There is no sense in having a student repeat an entire class for the failure of a single exam; nor is it sensible to require repeating a grade for the failure of a class. Sometimes this crap happens and it totally screws the student.

A student's pace of learning need to be considered. We only account for difficulty in this regard, but pace definitely matters. The learning rate of students can cause failure. Some students take forever to learn anything. They can get it, but the extra year + humiliation of the students is too long and will work against their education.

High school scheduling makes more sense for the teachers than it does for the students. A school year for a single subject is insane. When we're trying to breed college level graduates, they need to know what it's like to cover the same subject matter in 3-4 months instead of 8.

For someone like me, entire subjects are best covered in a short period of time. I'm one (super easy) test away from my university degree and I can speak from recent experience that my best performance has been in summer classes, where the same material has to be covered in half the time of a regular semester. After that I can retain more information for a longer time.

For you teacher types, the best motivation for students to study was oral quizzing in class that works towards a grade. The trick is to make questions easy enough that a wrong answer will embarrass him in front of his friends, yet hard enough that it could not be provided to him by someone else in casual conversation about the material. A similar thing is to cover the previous day's notes in the same manner, and allow the student to reference his notes for the answer. Fear of looking like an idiot works much better than a letter on a piece of paper. 

Motivation by homework doesn't work because it is impersonal. Nobody feels the bite of a poor grade unless it's on a test or report card. By then it's usually too late to recover.

I don't know how anybody can catch up a student that's behind, but the current way of thinking does not take the above into account. Numbers and letters don't really motivate people. They need something tangible. They need an ego boost for being well studied and motivation even when they are doing poorly. The F grade really does not help with this.


On the other side of things (read until the end folks), there are way too many types of students to consider. We need the current system to keep it simple and standard for everybody. And if there's anything we can all agree on, the push for standardized tests is total equestrian excrement. We had the FCAT. Some teachers (usually the lower level ones) would stress the need to meet that test's standards. Even in the upper level classes we had to dumb it down so we would be prepared for it. I even had a teacher talk to us about "FCAT skills." It's an IQ test. One can't study for it. Just like the SAT, your score has nothing to do with content. You don't complete a standardized test, you solve it. They're more a survey of student intelligence than they are of academic prowess.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2010 at 9:44pm
This is as stupid as the using green ink thing because red hurts the child's feelings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArthurBignose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2010 at 10:23pm
Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:

For you teacher types, the best motivation for students to study was oral quizzing in class that works towards a grade. The trick is to make questions easy enough that a wrong answer will embarrass him in front of his friends, yet hard enough that it could not be provided to him by someone else in casual conversation about the material. A similar thing is to cover the previous day's notes in the same manner, and allow the student to reference his notes for the answer. Fear of looking like an idiot works much better than a letter on a piece of paper. 


This...

I had a prof who assigned everyone in the class a number, in the x-y format.  He had 2 dice, white one was the x dice and black one was the y dice.  Roughly 4-5 times during the class he would roll the dice and ask the person whos number he rolled a question regarding the current topic (that he had either gone over in previous lectures or was in the assigned reading).  Get the question right and you get +0.5 points on your final grade, get it wrong and you get 0.5 points off your final grade (points off if you're absent too).  It was annoying at times, but pretty much everyone learned what the needed to learn.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kickinwing2010 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2010 at 10:56pm
Thank you for this, I am about to write a paper for my comp class about drop out rates in schools and I am definitely going to use this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2010 at 7:52am
I always viewed a failing grade as a lesson in and of itself. You know, the old "Consequences for your actions" sort of thing. Tolgak, there's sort of a double talk in your post. Embarrass the kid with tough verbal questions- but not with a failing grade if he's genuinely not applying himself.

If you've got a classroom where you're trying to cram everything the state wants you to into your instruction, you often lack the TIME necessary to hit every learning level, and learning style. When I student taught, we spent one week on the American Revolution. How, in God's name was I supposed to teach the material, review it, and assess it- and still have time to tailor each lesson to the multiple levels and types of understanding.

The truth of the matter is, its time itself that's the cause of the issues. The state stands behind each administration who stands behind the teachers who are behind the students driving them as fast as they can to get where the state mandates them to be by June. You don't have time to implement these ideal strategies that would make the education world a happy land. You're going to lose students along the way. Is it fair? No. Is it the teacher's fault? Even more....no.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2010 at 8:28am
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

I always viewed a failing grade as a lesson in and of itself. You know, the old "Consequences for your actions" sort of thing. Tolgak, there's sort of a double talk in your post. Embarrass the kid with tough verbal questions- but not with a failing grade if he's genuinely not applying himself.

I'm not sure you got the point. People are more afraid to fail when it is public. Since you cannot make individual grades public, an F isn't going to be as powerful as a "you're wrong" in the middle of all the students' peers. For the people who want to do well, the fear of an F is a great motivator. Unfortunately that group is only about 20% of us.

Quote If you've got a classroom where you're trying to cram everything the state wants you to into your instruction, you often lack the TIME necessary to hit every learning level, and learning style. When I student taught, we spent one week on the American Revolution. How, in God's name was I supposed to teach the material, review it, and assess it- and still have time to tailor each lesson to the multiple levels and types of understanding.


Covering more specific subjects per semester is a lot more effective than having a full school year for something broad. The conflict is that K-12 educational goals do not exist to make us experts. They exist so the population can at least be informed of the subjects; with the hope that some students will be motivated to learn more and go to college.

We often praise other countries for their educational systems. The problem is we always look to the academics and forget that every country has a high percentage of non-studious youth. They also have solutions for that problem Germany is pretty good about catering to students of different learning abilities. You have to apply to get into one of the various levels of high schools. US schools have a "one size fits all" approach which has to cater to the lower end abilities to allow a large percentage to pass.


Quote The truth of the matter is, its time itself that's the cause of the issues. The state stands behind each administration who stands behind the teachers who are behind the students driving them as fast as they can to get where the state mandates them to be by June. You don't have time to implement these ideal strategies that would make the education world a happy land. You're going to lose students along the way. Is it fair? No. Is it the teacher's fault? Even more....no.

That's really the best they can expect from our population. The funny thing about all this is: While we talk about a broken education system, we're still one of the scientific leaders of the world. We have a lot of people that know what we need to know to be prosperous... too many people. What really holds us back is politics. Nothing is allowed to happen unless the decision making individuals stand to profit. I think our energy is misplaced (yes, I realize the statement kind of contradicts my above efforts).


Edited by Tolgak - 17 November 2010 at 8:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2010 at 12:03pm
I pooched a class in high school- genuinely failed grade ten geography due to complete lack of effort on my part. I found out years later that the teacher actually called my mom, said he was wavering on it and could have maybe justified giving me the 51%, and she told him not to, because I wouldn't learn anything.

So I repeated the class in summer school, improved another mark as well at the same time, and in my last two years of high school got good enough marks to get a scholarship in university, which I've since worked to retain.

Failing taught me a lesson, and I learned from it. I shudder to think of how the sequence of events would have played out had I not been allowed to fail a class that I did not deserve to pass. I would insist on any kids I ever have being treated the same way.

Education doesn't just teach kids about facts and dates. It's supposed to teach aco**edited**ability, give you opportunities to develop your sense of confidence and assertiveness, to teach you a work ethic by rewarding you for displaying one, and to teach you have to learn independently and lead yourself to knowledge- in sum, to contribute significantly to your larger character that will shape your adult life.

Teachers should bend over backwards to meet kids halfway- but no farther than that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GroupB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2010 at 12:07pm
51% is passing in Canada?  Even your grades are worth less*.

*Also worthless


Edited by GroupB - 17 November 2010 at 12:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2010 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

I pooched a class in high school- genuinely failed grade ten geography due to complete lack of effort on my part. I found out years later that the teacher actually called my mom, said he was wavering on it and could have maybe justified giving me the 51%, and she told him not to, because I wouldn't learn anything.

So I repeated the class in summer school, improved another mark as well at the same time, and in my last two years of high school got good enough marks to get a scholarship in university, which I've since worked to retain.

Failing taught me a lesson, and I learned from it. I shudder to think of how the sequence of events would have played out had I not been allowed to fail a class that I did not deserve to pass. I would insist on any kids I ever have being treated the same way.

Education doesn't just teach kids about facts and dates. It's supposed to teach aco**edited**ability, give you opportunities to develop your sense of confidence and assertiveness, to teach you a work ethic by rewarding you for displaying one, and to teach you have to learn independently and lead yourself to knowledge- in sum, to contribute significantly to your larger character that will shape your adult life.

Teachers should bend over backwards to meet kids halfway- but no farther than that.


There it is.
Clap

The issue becomes that the people in charge, and the idealists- don't see it that way. They see it as the TEACHER'S job to pass the students. Not a multi-faceted process which takes the equal amount of effort on the part of the educators, students, parents, and administrators.

 (Educators=/=Administrators)



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2010 at 1:04pm
The no-fail thing is one of those processes that I'm going to guess works in theory but is not really that applicable to real-world situations, at least not in the U.S. 
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