lube

How hard is it to buy a bottle of paintball gun oil. Its cheap and a bottle will last you a LONG time

Boo bear 2 wrote: i put 10 w30 in mine and it brock my gun

Brock witch party?

Tri-Flow with Teflon works wonders Teflon keeps it there for a while

http://www.efunda.com/designstandards/oring/oring_chemical.c fm?SM=none&SC=Lubricating%20Oils%2C%20Petroleum%20Base#m at

Shadowminion,

This is a great link. Interesting that Stodard Solvent is fully compatible with Buna N but no data on polyurethane.

Edited by Bruce A. Frank - 30 July 2006 at 8:26pm

Okay thank you Shadowminion you got the straight facts that I see at work everday and i do agree bruce its great for removing dirt and grime but I have never used it on pnuematics nor am I allowed to use anytype of penetrating oil to clean around the outside of these systems. I work with aircraft and we do do things that do not seem like they are necassary but all of the manuls that we use someone somewhere has been injured or material damaged so what may seem like some broad generalization in the manual is really something they have probably tested and proved remember no matter how much experience you think you have these are the guys that make the markers and have been doing so for about 20 years and i am sure in that time they have seen it all and have learned from there mistakes and the mistakes of others. Anyway thank you for you input shadowminion i was having trouble finding that wd-40 link

I don't like WD-40 as a lubricant. Particularly for use as a primary lubricant for paintball markers. Thickening as the "solvent" evaporates? Yes, to the consistency of about 2 weight motor oil...still quite thin.  It's plus side is that as a pressurized spray can it blows and washes dirt and trash out of rolling and sliding parts. Oh, and it is a fair, better than nothing right out of the spray can, cutting fluid for machining aluminum.

Most refrigeration systems use neoprene "O" rings which are, as I read the charts, the least resistant to oils and fuels. I would gather that neoprene is not the material used for the Tippmann "O" rings. But, even if they were, the occasional spritz with WD-40, the quick evaporation of its "solvents" would not likely damage the "O" ring.

Do you really think a set of dial calipers offers a finer closure feel than a set of mikes? Remember, I wasn't measuring absolutes, I compared soaked and non-soaked...a change in dimension, not to size the thing for cutting the fitting groove.

As for the "solvent/thinner" in WD-40, I have not been able find its identity. I have assumed that it was a refined kerosene. The sweet scent of WD-40 makes it difficult to identify.

My pasted comments are from manufacturer's pages and they differ only slightly from the McMaster-Carr chart. My original point that WD-40 presented no real damage potential to the elastomers used in the Tippmann markers seems to have been lost in the point making.

As I have posted times before, my chosen lubricants for my 98C are brands of air tool oil( I like Marvel Air Tool oil and Senco Pneumatic Tool oil) and white lithium grease. I have used Hoppes. I have done "O" ring soak tests in all of them.

I have used WD-40 spray to clean dirt, grime and other field debris from the internal parts. Shook off the excess, reassembled the marker and returned to play. It certainly left nothing behind that was catastrophically detrimental to my marker...in the short term or long term.

Though I didn't keep records of replacement intervals, my "O" rings and seals actually appeared to require replacement less frequently that ones in other player's markers with whom I played regularly. Sticking to a regular cleaning and lubrication regime seems to have much more impact on "O" ring longevity than the kind of oil used.

My play experience and my soak tests have shown me no reason to fear the use of WD-40 in my marker.

BTW, all the "O" rings I tested were damaged by short soaks in acetone, MEK and toluene.

Bruce , while I am not disputing your determination of suitability of WD-40 as a lubricant for your marker (You , and only you can do that,,,) I am going to present as strongly supported a case as I can against using WD-40 as a lubricant !! I have no reason to like or dislike you , you seem like an articulate intelligent person and I respect your opinion for what it is , an opinion . So Hang on , and listen up , I dont mean this as an attack on you personally , but I am attacking your endorsment of WD-40 in this case . 

You said in a reply just a few posts above this one."From a spray can if filled two small glass jars with about a half inch depth of WD-40. I then dropped one of the following listed "O" rings in each jar. One jar held brand new "O" rings and the other held used "O" rings freshly removed from the marker; the 98C front bolt "O" ring, the Rear bolt (hammer) "O" ring, the power valve cup "O" ring, the "O" ring that fits the rear outside grove of the power valve, the power valve's poppet valve seat (the shiny black flat washer) and the "O" ring that goes behind the brass valve seat against which the poppet valve rests.

"Then I capped the bottle to prevent the any thinner from evaporating and let it sit."

^^^^Thinner tends to dissolve things , and is considered a solvent by any industries standards , you seem to be disproving your own claim that WD-40 is not a penetrating oil with solvents . Solvents and thinners are both considered V.O.C's by manufacturers and the Environmental Protection Agency , no matter what their chemical composition is . For that matter many solvents contain thinners (solvents and thinners are different things , but for the generalities we are discussing here , their behavior on elastomeric compounds are similar and can be considered synonymous). If you have a Graingers catalogue handy , look at the chemical compatibility chart in it , and tell me how many solvents (thinners?) are compatible with either Buna-n , Viton , or polyurethane , or any elastomeric material at all .....probably the only elastomer you will find with any degree of resistance to solvents may be a silicone , and I'm betting even it wont be recommended for most .

I've also worked with enough pneumatic systems over the years to know the best and surest way to induce failures is to spray WD-40 into ANY working pneumatic system , The solvents (thinners)evaporate and excaberate the original problems gumming up the orings and sealing surfaces in a mass of black crap !! I AM calling shens on your claiming to have done the simple test I outlined on the first page of this thread (whoops , top of this page) , but the visual I pulled of you sitting around with a micrometer  surrounded by an assortment of small bottles was amusing .

 Oh , by the way A micrometer is not the best way to measure an o-ring for swelling caused by solvent absorbtion , I hope you meant to say you used a set of dial calipers .

The most common types of materials for o-ring construction are Buna-nitrile rubber (Most susceptible to chemicals , and also the most commonly used ) , Viton , (the least affected by common chemicals and solvents , but at approximately 4 times the cost) and Polyurethane ( Midrange for chemical and solvent resistance , but best at handling extreme pressures ) .

Having said that , when the thinners do evaporate , as they will if left at room temperature for any amount of time , the sticky wax-like substance left behind will surely not help the performance for close tolerance fast moving parts . Take one of those small bottles you have and set it outside for a week and let the solvent evaporate , what you have left is something I wouldnt want in my marker .

WD-40 is best at removing tar and tough road grime from car bodys and tools , and is okay for lubricating slow moving devices ,like car door hinges , hood hinges , door hinges and such . I've seen it cause more problems (from mis-use as a lubricant ) than I have ever seen it prevent .

Air tool oil isnt that expensive and a small bottle of even the most expensive air tool oil is more than enough to last for years .

More to come :

http://www.wd40.com/Brands/pdfs/msds-wd40_aerosol.us.pdf

Here's the link to the WD-40 website , the MSDS sheet in particular , notice in the physical properties , the last listing on both columns it gives the volatile percentages both by volume and percentage of weight , (the stuff that will evaporate , otherwise known as solvents) 74 % solvent.... Three quarters of what you spray onto your marker will evaporate leaving behind the other 25 percent of,,,oil , yes its an oil , but the viscosity of that oil is closer to tar than any lubricating oil you'd think of .

Also the flashpoint , listed in the fire and explosion section (IV) show the solvents flash off at a low temperature of 131 degrees Farenheight (Gasoline flashes off at ten degrees higher than those solvents in WD-40 !! would you lube your marker with unleaded ?)

OKAY , maybe the spray bottle stuff is better , surely it cant be much worse , lets see..

http://www.wd40.com/Brands/pdfs/msds-wd40_bulk.us.pdf

Nope , looks like the same stuff to me , 74 percent volatile components and notably the absence of CO2 (propellant , I presume) .

 Still no mention of exactly what those volatile compounds are , they could be, and most probably are at least in some proportion , Naptha , Xylene , Ethyl alcohol , tolulene , MEK , Acetone , or any of a dozen other aliphatic hydrocarbons (products made from refined or distilled oil) , Volatile Organic compounds(a broader classification of compounds that includes synthetically produced compounds , petroleum products , and other chemicals with a tendency to have low flash points , including naturally occuring compounds such as ammonia , alcohol , Etc)

 

Okay , lets see if we can find some chemical compatibility charts ,,,

McMaster-Carr's website , on o-ring properties ,

Show resistance properties of	< id=0 name="0" ="#">< ="display('0',this.value);" name=0> < value=choose>Select Type < value=buna ed>Buna-N (Nitrile) < value=epdm>EPDM < value=fep>FEP < value=kalrez>Kalrez < value=neoprene>Neoprene < value=polyur>Polyurethane < value=ptfe>PTFE < value=silicone>Silicone < value=viton>Viton	< id=1 name="1" ="#">< ="display('1',this.value);" name=1> < value=choose>Select Type < value=buna>Buna-N (Nitrile) < value=epdm>EPDM < value=fep>FEP < value=kalrez>Kalrez < value=neoprene>Neoprene < value=polyur>Polyurethane < value=ptfe>PTFE < value=silicone>Silicone < value=viton ed>Viton	< id=2 name="2" ="#">< ="display('2',this.value);" name=2> < value=choose>Select Type < value=buna>Buna-N (Nitrile) < value=epdm>EPDM < value=fep>FEP < value=kalrez>Kalrez < value=neoprene>Neoprene < value=polyur ed>Polyurethane < value=ptfe>PTFE < value=silicone>Silicone < value=viton>Viton
Approx. Temp. Rating (High)	+230 F	+400 F	+180 F
Approx. Temp. Rating (Low)	-30 F	-10 F	-20 F
Abrasion	Good	Good	Excellent
Acids	Not Rated	Good	Poor
Alcohol	Not Rated	Not Rated	Poor
Alkalies	Not Rated	Not Rated	Poor
Anilines	Good	Excellent	Good
Animal/Vegetable Oils	Good	Excellent	Good
Compression Set	Fair	Good	Poor
Detergents	Good	Not Rated	Not Rated
Hydraulic Fluid	Good	Excellent	Good
Hydrocarbons	Not Rated	Good	Fair
Ketones	Not Rated	Not Rated	Not Rated
Ozone	Not Rated	Excellent	Excellent
Refrigerants	Not Rated	Not Rated	Not Rated
Salt Water	Fair	Fair	Poor
Steam	Not Rated	Not Rated	Poor
Synthetic Lubricants	Good	Excellent	Good
Tearing	Fair	Fair	Good
Water	Poor	Poor	Poor
Weather	Poor	Poor	Poor

Cole-Parmers chemical compatibility chart , notice aromatic Hydrocarbons , severe effect on buna-n , not recommended, no way-no how !!

http://www.coleparmer.com/techinfo/ChemCompResults.asp

Now for Viton oring material , same site , same page,, hit the link and then the back button , change the material to viton , and then hit the submit button , same for neoprene , a chemically similar material to polyurethane . To readily see the weaknesses of each material , select a compatibility level of  "Severe" , you'll see solvents of differing natures and compositions affect the o-rings differently , but light machine oils , Synthetic and refined hydrocarbon lubricants (NOT solvents) are most generally acceptable .

Point being , unless you know exactly which solvents, or thinners you are dealing with , and the specific compatibility of the materials you are using , stay with manufacturers recommendations , they've put more research into what chemicals can go with what materials than any of us can , or care to invest in the subject !! I've come to learn , with over 30 years experience working with just about every industrial technology around , when in doubt , look it up , and dont ignore what the "Big Boys" have to say about their own products or chemicals !!

Is anybody really gonna read through all the stuff I linked ?, or just spout more nonsense ?

Edited by Shadowminion - 29 July 2006 at 1:38am

I'm gonna have to go with Bruce on this one, based simply on track record.

And, for the record, I note that the manual also says "this is not a toy" (which in fact it is), "always keep trigger safety in safe mode unless firing" (which I don't), "loop cord [of barrel sleeve] over top of receiver" (I mount it in a completely different way), "Tippmann shall not be liable for ..." (they can't simply declare themselves not liable), "avoid exposing any skin when playing the game of paintball" (I play in a t-shirt), "avoid shooting an opponent at point blank, 6 feet or less" (no tournament play allowed, I guess).

I could go on - but basically the entire manual is nothing but recommendations and super-cautious generalizations.  If Bruce has tested and concluded that WD-40 will not harm his gear, then that trumps a super-general CYA statement in the manual.

daghost wrote: http://www.tippmann.com/pdfs/manuals/98Custom_Manual.pdf Bruce I know you mean well but this is on this site and is the acutal manual for the 98 which is what dude has there is no need to to test this cuz most orings are made out of urethane or latex sometimes but what does it say on condoms do not use petrol based lubricants i am not going to argue with any one on this anymore just look it up its on page ten under gun cleaning an maintence I have attached the link I am right and under no circumstances should you ever us wd-40 its a good way to mess up the gun. if you wanna sit around with a bunch of jars filled with various liquids just don't light a match.

Gun oils, unless specifically designated as synthetic, are petroleum based (including Hoppe's, the Tippmann recommended oil). WD-40 is not a petroleum based cleaning solvent, it is a lubricant.

Latex "O" rings! I guess in that case the only acceptable lubricant is water soluble K-Y Jelly.

I don't disagree with the manual's admonition against using solvents, you are misinterpreting the information. Fact is that Hoppe's even comes in an aerosol can, just like WD-40. A spray LUBRICANT, not a spray cleaning solvent. Then again, oil is actually  cleaning solvent.

Buna N and Urethane "O" rings are not damaged by a spritz of WD-40. Neoprene might be, but then it is also likely to be damaged by gun oil. A latex rubber "O" ring would be, but they are not used in the Tippmann marker. My still ongoing test of the Tippmann "O" ring WD-40 immersion test shows no incompatibility with the "O" rings OEM in the marker or supplied by Tippmann as replacement parts.
=====

Buna-N is the most widely used "O" ring

Description: Standard Nitrile is also known as Buna-N. Excellent resistance to petroleum-based oils and fuels, water and alcohols. Nitrile also has good resistance to acids and bases, except those with a strong oxidizing effect.

Limitations: Avoid highly polar solvents (Acetone, MEK, etc.) and direct exposure to ozone and sunlight.
===
Polyurethane (AU, EU)

Polyurethane compounds exhibit high tensile strength, excellent abrasion and tear strength making it the toughest of the elastomers. Compression set and heat resistance are inferior to other elastomers such as Nitrile. These materials may be suitable for hydraulic applications, which exhibit abrasive contaminants or shock loads. The service temperature range for these compounds is -65°F to +212°F.
==

There are many compounds used to make "O" rings, but the common and least expensive ones used where high quality "gun" oil is recommended, do not get eaten up by WD-40. 

Rambino wrote: /me imagines Bruce sitting in living room, surrounded by little glasses with o-rings in various fluids

Well, I didn't try gasoline yet!