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Peter Parker View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09 April 2009 at 3:23pm
Article:  http://www.abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=7297745&page=1
 
It doesn't even try to be even-handed, so ignore the general anti-gun sentiment in the article.  That isn't the issue.  I post this purely as an illustration of the "gun show loophole" that we discussed earlier.
 
The point here is that without breaking any laws, this kid was able to accomplish exactly what current gun laws are meant to prohibit:  easily buy many guns without any background check or record-keeping.
 
If I am planning on committing a crime with a gun, or know that I would not pass a background check, it would be a simple matter for me to swing by the nearest gun show and bypass almost all current gun laws.
 
This is a loophole the size of a Mack truck.
 
Whether you agree with current gun laws or not, we ought to have, as a matter of principle, laws that cannot this easily be dodged.
 


Edited by Peter Parker - 09 April 2009 at 3:23pm

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2009 at 3:30pm
What's that? You want tickets to the gun show?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2009 at 3:33pm
What's that - a .22 snubnose?

Edited by Peter Parker - 09 April 2009 at 3:33pm

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2009 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

What's that - a .22 snubnose?

Leave me alone. I'm just exercising my right to bare arms.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IMPULS3. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2009 at 3:57pm

The loophole only applies to non FFL private sellers.

Most sellers at gun shows are FFL dealers.

How is it any different than buying a bunch of guns from private sellers out of the news paper?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2009 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

What's that - a .22 snubnose?


You were supposed to be looking up and to the left in the photo; not bottom center.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2009 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

What's that - a .22 snubnose?


You were supposed to be looking up and to the left in the photo; not bottom center.


He never really recovered from that ice bar in NZ did he?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2009 at 4:31pm

wow, that is scary... Oh, man, they should ban all guns...

 
 
Well , its a good thing they regulate other stuff, like drugs. We wouldn't want people to be able to take $5,000 down to the local corner and buy crack...
 
Oh, wait...
 
I bet the news network then took those weapons to mexico and gave them to drug dealers too...
 
That kind of article is why I dislike the media so much... The push for "more" laws, instead of just enforcing the laws on the books. Maybe if schools quit teaching relative morality, and focused on character and morals, we wouldn't have all these people enacting "survival of the fittest"...
 
And now that we have all these social miscreants, created by the lack of morals, and dismissal of moral law... Now, we want to harness that issue with more gun control... Yeah, that makes sense. Good thing they don't teach logic in schools.
 
Best thing we could do as a society is to arm all citizens. And train them how to use firearms to protect themselves from the nutjobs the schools are putting on the streets daily.
 
At the end of the day, if a criminal wants a gun, he will get a gun, just like if you want drugs, you get them.
 
While enacting more laws just restricts the law abiding citizens and puts them in harms way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2009 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by IMPULS3. IMPULS3. wrote:

How is it any different than buying a bunch of guns from private sellers out of the news paper?

 

 
Because of the results.
 
How long would it take to buy ten guns through newspaper classifieds?  How much of a paper trail would you leave in the process, and how many buyers would remember you when the cops called later?
 
By going to a gun show, this kid bought ten guns in an hour, with no paper trail and nearly complete anonymity.  That is exactly the scenario current laws are meant to stop.
 
 
 

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2009 at 4:33pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

wow, that is scary... Oh, man, they should ban all guns...

 
 
Well , its a good thing they regulate other stuff, like drugs. We wouldn't want people to be able to take $5,000 down to the local corner and buy crack...
 
Oh, wait...
 
I bet the news network then took those weapons to mexico and gave them to drug dealers too...
 
That kind of article is why I dislike the media so much... The push for "more" laws, instead of just enforcing the laws on the books. Maybe if schools quit teaching relative morality, and focused on character and morals, we wouldn't have all these people enacting "survival of the fittest"...
 
And now that we have all these social miscreants, created by the lack of morals, and dismissal of moral law... Now, we want to harness that issue with more gun control... Yeah, that makes sense. Good thing they don't teach logic in schools.
 
Best thing we could do as a society is to arm all citizens. And train them how to use firearms to protect themselves from the nutjobs the schools are putting on the streets daily.
 
At the end of the day, if a criminal wants a gun, he will get a gun, just like if you want drugs, you get them.
 
While enacting more laws just restricts the law abiding citizens and puts them in harms way.
 
Ah, yes.  Non Sequiteurs 'R' Us.
 
Welcome.
 

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2009 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by IMPULS3. IMPULS3. wrote:

The loophole only applies to non FFL private sellers.

Most sellers at gun shows are FFL dealers.

How is it any different than buying a bunch of guns from private sellers out of the news paper?

 



Exactly -- which is why they need to close the private sale loophole entirely.  Make it a regulated process.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2009 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

Originally posted by IMPULS3. IMPULS3. wrote:

How is it any different than buying a bunch of guns from private sellers out of the news paper?

 

 
Because of the results.
 
How long would it take to buy ten guns through newspaper classifieds?  How much of a paper trail would you leave in the process, and how many buyers would remember you when the cops called later?
 
By going to a gun show, this kid bought ten guns in an hour, with no paper trail and nearly complete anonymity.  That is exactly the scenario current laws are meant to stop.
 
 
 
If you buy the gun from a private individual at a gun show, they'd be likely to remember who they sold a gun to since if you sell more than 10 guns a year you need an FFL and to run background checks. I still fail to see how this is different than sales between individuals except for the setting.

EDIT: The article itself was an abomination, the only part that wasn't biased was that it mentioned that the gunmen bought his gun through a dealer but the state hadn't reported the mental illness aspect.


Edited by rednekk98 - 09 April 2009 at 4:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2009 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

 
Ah, yes.  Non Sequiteurs 'R' Us.
 
Welcome.
 
 
I think you mean "non sequitur"
 
You might want to bust out the thesaurus when trying witty riposte...
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2009 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

 
Ah, yes.  Non Sequiteurs 'R' Us.
 
Welcome.
 
 
I think you mean "non sequitur"
 
You might want to bust out the thesaurus when trying witty riposte...
 
 
 
And I think you mean "dictionary"...    :)
 
But yes, I did in fact misspell a Latin word.
 
 


Edited by Peter Parker - 09 April 2009 at 4:46pm

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2009 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by rednekk98 rednekk98 wrote:

  
 
If you buy the gun from a private individual at a gun show, they'd be likely to remember who they sold a gun to since if you sell more than 10 guns a year you need an FFL and to run background checks. I still fail to see how this is different than sales between individuals except for the setting. [/quote]
 
Not everybody at the gun show is selling more than ten guns per year, and even if they are, nobody at the gun show is checking.  You don't need an FFL to sell at gun shows, regardless of whether you are legally required to have one.
 
The example in this article is a demonstration of how this is different from sales between individuals - and it is in fact the setting.  Because the setting allows buyers and sellers to do easily what would be difficult or impossible under normal circumstances:  To buy/sell firearms quickly and easily, with no paperwork, anonymously and untraceably, and potentially in large numbers.
 
That is a function of the setting.  And that is why the loophole is commonly referred to as the "gun show loophole" rather than the "sales between individuals loophole."
 
The setting is not "just" the setting.
 

Quote EDIT: The article itself was an abomination, the only part that wasn't biased was that it mentioned that the gunmen bought his gun through a dealer but the state hadn't reported the mental illness aspect.
 
Agreed.  The article is awful.
 

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2009 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

What's that - a .22 snubnose?


You were supposed to be looking up and to the left in the photo; not bottom center.

No silly, wrong calibre- that's Long Rifle. Wink You should know this Mack; from your past posts I know you're pretty familiar with the subejct of small arms.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote merc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2009 at 5:55pm
over paid, no laws broken.

again i think all firearm transfers should be required to go through an FFL, but gunshow "loop hole" (dont like the term) is not getting around anything...

edit: same kid could go into a gun shop and buy the same firearms. probably in less time.

took me 20 mins to get my first pistol and i was approved in less time than it took me to take a piss and wash my hands...

Edited by merc - 09 April 2009 at 5:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2009 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by merc merc wrote:

over paid, no laws broken.

again i think all firearm transfers should be required to go through an FFL, but gunshow "loop hole" (dont like the term) is not getting around anything...
 
The loophole allows people to get around the requirements imposed by an FFL dealer.  IOW, the exact requirements you think should apply to all firearms transfers.
 
 

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote merc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2009 at 6:04pm
^wrong, its not getting around it. its black and white, buy from a dealer it MUST be an FFL transfer. buy from a privet seller no paperwork required.

again they "should" apply for all transfers but they dont currently. not getting around any laws, not bending any rules.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2009 at 6:12pm
What Merc said. It isn't a loophole. In an hour you could probably phone everyone placing an ad to sell guns in an area.

So you got it in an hour. Big whoop. How is that any different than if you bought them over 4 hours? Or over a weekend? It isn't like you are going to buy a bunch of guns and start a killing spree within that hour.

You don't want to close a loop hole, you want to regulate private weapon sales.

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