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Pretty Ballsy

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Clark Kent View Drop Down
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    Posted: 25 July 2006 at 2:18pm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14020234/

Props to Senator Specter. 

And I must say that it may be a sign that you are doing something wrong when people in your own political party are getting ready to sue you for the way you do your job.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cedric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2006 at 2:20pm
A lot of people want to sue/put bush on trial. He's one popular guy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oreomann33 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2006 at 2:23pm
Boo yah
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enos Shenk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2006 at 2:47pm
At least someone has some guts. I like my senators, but I wish I had that guy...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2006 at 2:52pm
Im not sure what he did unconstitutional.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2006 at 3:11pm
if there's a problem with signing statements... how about we disallow them? i think it's ridiculous for them to have an option for someone to do that if all it does is piss off members of congress. they get mad when he vetos bills. now they get mad when he wants to add his two cents. sounds to me like all they want is for him to automatically sign every piece of legislation the republican party passes in congress.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote You Wont See Me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2006 at 3:16pm
Wait.....its a bill?

So couldnt bush just veto it anyway?
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Clark Kent View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2006 at 3:19pm

That's the point.  Bush hasn't been vetoing the bills.  Instead he signs them into law, and then issues a "statement" that he plans to just ignore the law he just signed.

You can override a veto, but there is no process for overriding a "statement".

Other presidents have done this as well, but it certainly sounds a bit shady.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2006 at 3:35pm
so back to my point, why not work on a bill to disallow the "statements" entirely? or would that ruin the fun of bush bashing? i think lawmakers get a little carried away at times and make it too complicated.

another question, are the statements allowed by law or is there no law against them? if the former, time to revise or repeal the law. if the latter, time to draft a bill.

again, lame duck ringing a bell about now?
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Clark Kent View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2006 at 3:41pm

HV - to my knowledge, the answer to all your questions is "there is no law on the issue".

Congress could pass a law declaring these statements unlawful, and Bush could/would simply ignore it, or issue another statement that he would ignore it.

TMK, there is no law against these statements or any law permitting them.  Complete legal grayzone.  The real issue is what this means for the separation of powers.

I would tend to think that this is exactly the kind of issue that the Supreme Court ought to be deciding.  That's what the Court is for.  This is essentially a powerstruggle between Congress and the Executive, and that same doctrine of separation of powers tells us that the Judiciary is the correct body to resolve that struggle, IMO.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2006 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

HV - to my knowledge, the answer to all your questions is "there is no law on the issue".

Congress could pass a law declaring these statements unlawful, and Bush could/would simply ignore it, or issue another statement that he would ignore it.

TMK, there is no law against these statements or any law permitting them.  Complete legal grayzone.  The real issue is what this means for the separation of powers.

I would tend to think that this is exactly the kind of issue that the Supreme Court ought to be deciding.  That's what the Court is for.  This is essentially a powerstruggle between Congress and the Executive, and that same doctrine of separation of powers tells us that the Judiciary is the correct body to resolve that struggle, IMO.

 


my thoughts exactly. are the statements tacked on to the legislation? if so that would make them part of the law, correct? judicial review time at that point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hairball!!! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2006 at 3:48pm
Arlen Specter is no Republican
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2006 at 3:50pm

Originally posted by High Voltage High Voltage wrote:

my thoughts exactly. are the statements tacked on to the legislation? if so that would make them part of the law, correct? judicial review time at that point.

I don't think so, on both counts.

The President can't modify legislation before signing it - that's pretty clear.  No line-item veto on the Federal level.

These statements are not tacked on to or made part of the legislation - they are a separate statement that essentially goes like this: "That law I just signed?  Yeah, well, I'm going to throw it in a drawer and pretend it never existed."

It has the same practical effect as a veto, but it circumvents the whole process.

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Clark Kent View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2006 at 3:51pm

Originally posted by Hairball!!! Hairball!!! wrote:

Arlen Specter is no Republican

How do you figure that?  The Republican party keeps supporting him for re-election.  That pretty much makes him a Republican by definition.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2006 at 3:56pm
definitely time to work on a bill to stop these statements. if he wants to sue bush, he should do that on his own time. as an elected official, he should (ideally) spend his time in the senate working to improve the situation or prevent it from happening again, not with just one president either.

but then again, if the government worked ideally, we wouldn't have it to blame for all our problems.
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Clark Kent View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2006 at 3:57pm

I'm confused, HV - you are saying that Specter should not sue, and at the same time you are saying that we should have judicial review?

Which is it?  Do you want judicial review or not?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2006 at 4:03pm
i got lost in my own thoughts, and sidetracked by looking for the power adapter for the laptop i am sending to BB.

allow me to slow down and rephrase, would the judicial review have to be directed specifically at an instance where the constitution was violated or towards an unconstitutional law itself? i fear i misunderstood what is being proposed by senator specter. is his bill directed at bush or the process of issuing signing statements?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2006 at 4:11pm

Specter hasn't done anything yet - but the statements he has issued have been a general criticism of the whole "statement" process.  I guess previous Presidents haven't used the process enough to make Specter mad.

And since the current current President is Bush, then the way (or at least A way) to challenge the process is to sue Bush as President.

The lawsuit will essentially alledge that the President is engaging in acts in violation of the separation of powers clauses of the Constitution, and ask for a declaration that these statements are unconstitutional.

But, generally, speaking, the only way to get judicial review of anything is for somebody to sue somebody else.  The Court doesn't have the authority to decide on its own that something is or is not constitutional - somebody has to get sued first.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rico's Revenge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2006 at 4:53pm

This has absolutely no effect on my life at all...   given the extremity of current events, I find this whole issue trivial and its pursuit to be a waste of time.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2006 at 5:14pm

I would disagree, Rico. 

This is an important issue regarding the separation of powers.  And the separation of powers (checks and balances, and all that good stuff) is arguably the most important feature of our system of government.

Short of a constitutional crisis regarding the freedom of speech, I frankly am hard pressed to think of anything more important to our way of life than the separation of powers.  Granted this sub-issue is fairly specific, but it is nevertheless essential to our government. 

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