Homie G wrote: I snipe I play on mountain courses climb to the top of the tree on the top of the hill and blaze everyone with whichever gun i rent

Yeah sure. You shoot at me from a long ways away in a tree, then miss. Then I know you are in a tree and you are toast!! LOL I love when people try that...and no paintball gun will shoot 200 yards, not even a flatline.

Maybe he wanted to tell the ladies to have a nice day. Nah but seriously this is pathetic, why does the community fight about this so much. I participated in the last great snipe debate. No one changed thier viewpoints, whats the point? It's not like anyone is going to change because they see some stranger on the internet type up a post. Why do people care, what I think about snipers? I know I don't care about what everyone else thinks.

Homie G wrote: I snipe I play on mountain courses climb to the top of the tree on the top of the hill and blaze everyone with whichever gun i rent

haha yea u try to shoot an experienced player, u miss, they see u, u cant move because ur stuck in a damn tree, u get lit up. thats all there is to it. there is no "sniping" in paintball.

Here this will end this piontless Sniper in paintball discussion once and for all. click this http://www.webdogradio.us/video/tipclip/s2/2WDR27xhi.wmv - http://www.webdogradio.us/video/tipclip/s2/2WDR27xhi.wmv

watch it and learn

jeep 98 custom wrote: A paintball gun can't shoot 200 FEET, much less 200 YARDS. Nice try, I can make things up too.

ACTUALLY...  With full arc, at 300 FPS, you CAN arc a paintball 300 feet or so.  Without a flatline.

-Tyger

WDR-Tyger wrote: ...ACTUALLY...  With full arc, at 300 FPS, you CAN arc a paintball 300 feet or so.  Without a flatline. -Tyger

Not accurately enough to land a one shot kill with any consistency. It's hard enough to get the shot on target and then you have to worry about it bouncing on top of that. Chances are you'll be wasting your time shooting like that. This reminds me of a funny story though. I built a practice field with my friends in a nearby patch of woods and just past the tree line was a baseball field where geese liked to walk around and "fertilize" the soil. Since there was nobody in sight and the geese routinely crap all over our field, we decided to have a little fun. They were at least 300 feet away from us so there was no way we could hit them normally. Since our field was at a lower elevation than the baseball field, there was a hillside right on the tree line. What we decided to do to test our skill as a team was to play artillery. One person held the gun at the bottom and guessed where the geese were, firing a shot in that direction. The other would be at the top of the hill and had to correct your aim judging by where the first shot landed. We actually hit a couple from quite a distance away like this, I wasn't expecting to hit anything. They weren't hurt at all, they were just a little freaked out.

SportsJunky2004 wrote: Here this will end this piontless Sniper in paintball discussion once and for all. click this http://www.webdogradio.us/video/tipclip/s2/2WDR27xhi.wmv - http://www.webdogradio.us/video/tipclip/s2/2WDR27xhi.wmv watch it and learn

 very good video. hey that video reminded me of CKY!!! du... duhaste

I think we need to define 'sniper'.

Sniper, within the military, is generally considered to be a person who engages targets with single, effective point shots at long ranges. You can do this with most rifles- some guys in my unit can get headshots at 500yds with 5.56 assault rifles. Snipers within our establishment though mean those who are specifically trained to do this while operating independently. A sniper will often wait days in one spot for their target. Does this happen in paintball? No.

A seperate term we use though is 'sharpshooter'. A soldier who, with our standard issue rifles (A Diemaco C7, in case anyone's curious) can fire very accurately at decent range, and effectively engage targets with little ammunition expenditure. They will often emply 'ambush' style tactics to engage a target at mid or short range. Is THIS possible in paintball? absolutely. With my flatline I can find a spot in the woods along the enemy axis of advance, adn wait. Eventually, a couple of them will get within a hundred feet or so, and I can effectively engage them, generally elss than 10 shots at a hundred feet to take them both down, adn that's to make DAMN sure I get them- generally in this case each gets hit two or three times.

This tactic can often be confused with sniping, and I think that's what we're dealing with here. I tend to view speedball as a light machinegunners' game- firing out lots of ammunition in shorts bursts to suppress targets or catch them in the open. High rates of fire and massive ammunition expenditure for relatively little real kills, but a high degree of suppression. Woodsball, however, belongs to the riflemen- those who can effectively engage targets at mid range with accurate, limited fire. They can do this on the move, defensively or offensively, or wait in an ambush. It doesn't matter as long as it works.

Now tell me that you can't do THAT in paintball and rack in the kills.

mod98commando wrote: WDR-Tyger wrote: ...ACTUALLY...  With full arc, at 300 FPS, you CAN arc a paintball 300 feet or so.  Without a flatline. -Tyger Not accurately enough to land a one shot kill with any consistency. It's hard enough to get the shot on target and then you have to worry about it bouncing on top of that. Chances are you'll be wasting your time shooting like that.

Sorry on being late to reply, but since the thread has been resurected (and I'm back from the surgery) I'll bring ths up too.

One of the other videos from earlier this year is talking about range and effective range.  http://www.webdogradio.us/video/tipclip/s2/ - http://www.webdogradio.us/video/tipclip/s2/   Show #3.  The first part of the show has a demo of a 250 foot shot, hitting a "bucket" target that's 6 inches across.  I couldn't give it full arc becasue of the ceiling.  The "spread" was only about a 7-10 foot circle, with most of the paint hitting within 5 feet of the intended target.  In fact, looking at the video again the guy who was my witness was STANDING five feet left of target, and he never got hit!

In fact, 40 shots "aimed" produced 2 hits on/in the target.  5% is NOT that bad a percentage for a paintball.  The ultimate test was that we had to do a re-take, because I screwed up the shot to begin with.  And within 20 shots or so, I did the take you see on the video.  So it IS repeatable.  To bring this into "real world" statistics, from more than 200 feet away, assuming no top cover, you can shoot that far without your opponent knowing it.  A paintgun shot at distance has a more muffled sound, and if they're shooting at the same time you could fire off a CANNON and they'd never know it.

All this being said, there's still no such thing as a "paintball sniper".  You can learn your effective range, you can learn your maximum range, you can learn how to arc paint WAY beyond your effective range, you can be a sneaky SOB, but you're still not "Sniping"  Call it semantics if you like, but IMHO there's no such thing as a "paintball sniper".

-Tyger

WDR-Tyger wrote: ... One of the other videos from earlier this year is talking about range and effective range.  http://www.webdogradio.us/video/tipclip/s2/ - http://www.webdogradio.us/video/tipclip/s2/   Show #3.  The first part of the show has a demo of a 250 foot shot, hitting a "bucket" target that's 6 inches across.  I couldn't give it full arc becasue of the ceiling.  The "spread" was only about a 7-10 foot circle, with most of the paint hitting within 5 feet of the intended target.  In fact, looking at the video again the guy who was my witness was STANDING five feet left of target, and he never got hit! In fact, 40 shots "aimed" produced 2 hits on/in the target.  5% is NOT that bad a percentage for a paintball.  The ultimate test was that we had to do a re-take, because I screwed up the shot to begin with.  And within 20 shots or so, I did the take you see on the video.  So it IS repeatable.  To bring this into "real world" statistics, from more than 200 feet away, assuming no top cover, you can shoot that far without your opponent knowing it.  A paintgun shot at distance has a more muffled sound, and if they're shooting at the same time you could fire off a CANNON and they'd never know it...

In a real game though, that kind of accuracy is terrible when going against a player with half a brain. If a shot lands anywhere near you with enough velocity to break, you move to cover yourself better right? Against a stationary target, that 5% chance is bad but you can still manage a hit eventually. When you have that kind of accuracy on a moving target, let alone an intelligent moving target, you won't hit them unless they really have no idea that shots are landing all around them. If it takes 20 shots to land a hit, I'd say the chances of them noticing at least one of those misses are high enough that you won't ever be able to hit them without wasting tremendous amounts of paint. While it is possible to land a shot like that, you'd be much better off moving in undetected for a closer shot. For you to land a shot on them from that distance they'd have to have no idea you were there and if that's the case, why not move in closer? They wouldn't see you and you'd increase your chances of a hit that way. Long balling should only be a last resort kind of thing or just used as a diversion.

Anybody who aspires to be a "sniper" should use stealth to get as close as possible so they can take out the target in as few shots as possible before they try to long ball the target. They'd be much more effective that way. I play like that myself though I don't call myself a sniper and I have tried the long range stuff too so I know from experience that you can be more effective by sneaking up close and popping people with just one or two shots. I use some sniper tactics and some from other places as well. Some may call me a sniper because I sneak up on the enemy and usually only take a few shots to eliminate my target which makes me hard to find but I don't consider myself one. In some ways I am a sniper and in others I'm not, I just don't waste time trying to categorize myself. I do what works no matter who normally uses it and that usually works out pretty well for me.

mod98commando wrote: In a real game though, that kind of accuracy is terrible when going against a player with half a brain. If a shot lands anywhere near you with enough velocity to break, you move to cover yourself better right? Against a stationary target, that 5% chance is bad but you can still manage a hit eventually. When you have that kind of accuracy on a moving target, let alone an intelligent moving target, you won't hit them unless they really have no idea that shots are landing all around them. If it takes 20 shots to land a hit, I'd say the chances of them noticing at least one of those misses are high enough that you won't ever be able to hit them without wasting tremendous amounts of paint. While it is possible to land a shot like that, you'd be much better off moving in undetected for a closer shot. For you to land a shot on them from that distance they'd have to have no idea you were there and if that's the case, why not move in closer? They wouldn't see you and you'd increase your chances of a hit that way. Long balling should only be a last resort kind of thing or just used as a diversion.

Well, first of all you give paintball players too much on the intelligence front.    I've met a lot of people that...  well...  are not "Frontal Lobe" people, if oyu get my meaning?

Real world expirence tells me that people don't like to look around if they don't have to.  I also know what my range effectively is with a paintball, so why not use all the tools in my arsenal?  If I don't need to get closer, why risk it?  When you're playing you need to balance risk/reward constantly.  This goes for everything from moving up to the next bunker to long range shooting.

At Shatnerball this year I was having a field day.  Laying at the edge of a tall grass area, I was plinking long range shots at the opponents who were pounding it out with my teammates.  I crawled into a place where I knew I could plink from, and took my time.  And in that situation my percentage was closer to 45% or 60%.  In this case I took a lot of factors into account.  Range, paint, the fact that my targets were distracted, and the fact they made us wear these MAROON FREAKING JERSEYS!!!  In this case, the distance was a factor becasue of the clothing I had to wear.  It was a LOT harder to get closer due to the bright clothing.

You are correct about moving targets, but I hate to say this by most paintball players don't MOVE anymore.  They find a nice place to stay, put out the white picket fence, and homestead.  The advantage goes to the mobile player, or at least the flexable one, who can move and maneuver to meet the needs of the moment.

Long range shooting is a tool in your "bag of tricks".  It shouldn't be your only tool, but it should be there.  The well rounded player can pull tricks out of his bag ad infinitum as needed to meet the situation.  Having more skills at my disposal gives me a lot of options for risk/reward.  To bring it to the main point, if crawling up on the other guys is "high risk", and long range shooting is "low risk" but yields the same eventual "reward", why go the hard route?

-Tyger

Ok correct me if I'm wrong (and Im damn sure I'm right) The word 'sniper' was used a LONG time ago because there were these birds called 'snipes' and with a musket(very inaccurate) it was a difficult task to hit one of those buggers. So that brings me to a weird point of the word 'sniper'.

Old Day Sniper: One Who Is Very Accurate (now and days they called them a 'good shot' or a 'sharpshooter'

Modern Day Sniper: One who is shooting with superior camo and distance than the enemy. Mainly used for recon.

People saying that " I live on an island and every step you could ge shot by snipers"... Well.... Anyone in a pink shirt that says 'Here I Am Shoot Me' can lay down in thick brush then pop up when they hear something and start spraying.... Now... Is that a sniper?????????????????????????? Seriously. NO.

Ok another thing that bugs me... I hate it with a passion when people  "When I'm Snipering"... SNIPERING.... say it to yourself slowly and listen how retarded you sound.. The correct term is Sniping.

K I think I'm done here. Main point is - No snipers in paintball - Get a life - Just Play

omg...i gonna solve this...directly from http://www.dictionary.com - dictionary.com  ...

snip·er    https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dsniper"> ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (snpr)
n.

"Sharpshooter" works.  I call it "plinking", becasue when I do long range shooting it reminds me of target shooting.  For the most part, all long range shooting for me is done from concealment / camouflaged / extreme range position, so it's no different than being on the target range and picking my shots.  So, I plink.

-Tyger

SR_Crewchief wrote: Amy's Angel wrote: One word. Sniping IS possible. Now you ladies have a nice day. First, cut the denegating statements like your last line. There counter to the spirit and intent of this forum. Second, why revive a 4 day old topic? Third, and I've told you this one before, instead of an unsupported useless one line statement, back it with what you think is sound tactical advice. And be prepared to defend it in a civil manor. If you can't at least do the first and third, then please don't post. Inflamatory posts that appear to be nothing than trolling for a fight are neither wanted or appreciated on this forum.

someone got their @$$ handed to them...lol

WDR-Tyger wrote: ...Well, first of all you give paintball players too much on the intelligence front.    I've met a lot of people that...  well...  are not "Frontal Lobe" people, if oyu get my meaning? Lol, understood. Real world expirence tells me that people don't like to look around if they don't have to.  I also know what my range effectively is with a paintball, so why not use all the tools in my arsenal?  If I don't need to get closer, why risk it?  When you're playing you need to balance risk/reward constantly.  This goes for everything from moving up to the next bunker to long range shooting. Good point. I guess we're both right, it just depends on the situation. You are correct about moving targets, but I hate to say this by most paintball players don't MOVE anymore.  They find a nice place to stay, put out the white picket fence, and homestead.  The advantage goes to the mobile player, or at least the flexable one, who can move and maneuver to meet the needs of the moment. Very true sadly, that's why I said the player had to be somewhat intelligent. Newbies tend to lack concentration when being shot at so they don't think clearly enough to make the decision to move to better cover. An experienced player on the other hand will instinctively try to cover themself better when they see paint coming from an angle where they are vulnerable. Long range shooting is a tool in your "bag of tricks".  It shouldn't be your only tool, but it should be there.  The well rounded player can pull tricks out of his bag ad infinitum as needed to meet the situation.  Having more skills at my disposal gives me a lot of options for risk/reward.  To bring it to the main point, if crawling up on the other guys is "high risk", and long range shooting is "low risk" but yields the same eventual "reward", why go the hard route? Again, you have a good point. Most of the time it's better to move in closer but if you can't always do that without getting shot. The key is to know your limits. You need to know how close you can get before being noticed and how far away you can land a shot from. Based on those two things you have to decide whether to take a shot or move in closer. Either one can get the job done but it never hurts to take a shot from a shorter distance if you can manage it, that's why I recommend moving in as close as you can and not taking the shot from farther away than you have to. It basically comes down to knowing your capabilities when it comes to stealth and marksmanship. If you know your boundaries well then chances are you can manage to pick people off without them having a clue but if not you'll probably end up learning all the shortcuts to the dead zone.

Also, please, stop posting the definition of sniper/sniping. It's been posted a thousand times before and it's too vague to prove anything. By the military definition of sniping, paintball snipers only fulfull half of the requirements if they're good. I think the reason why there is so much conflict over this is because there are just as many reasons for paintball snipers to exist as there are for them not to. Because of that, people make their decision and they stick to it which leads to what we're reading here. If you ask me, there are sniper-like players but you can't be exactly like a military sniper in paintball, it just isn't possible yet. What do exist are players that use sniper tactics in their game but that in itself isn't enough to classify them as snipers.

Since these players tend to mimic snipers, people call them that since it's a familiar term. The problem is that you get ex-military players and others who like to analyze everything who are bothered by the fact that they don't meet all the criteria and they argue that the name doesn't work. I don't see what the big deal is really. I may call a player a sniper because nobody knows where they are and they're shooting people out in one or two shots but I'm well aware that I'm not up against Carlos Hathcock. It's just a quick way of describing a threat to people since the word gives the idea of a person shooting others from an unknown location. If you want to get technical, the player is not a sniper but, at the time, it gets the point across quickly and that's what matters.

Well ok then, Mod98 makes a good point here.  He said "If you ask me, there are sniper-like players but you can't be exactly like a military sniper in paintball, it just isn't possible yet. What do exist are players that use sniper tactics in their game but that in itself isn't enough to classify them as snipers."  Ok then, let's ask THIS question.

What would it take to make a true "sniper" in paintball?

We all agree that range is a component, but at 300 FPS how do you get more range?  Simple, heavier ball.  Simple physics.  Momentum = mass * velocity.  Simply put, if velocity is a constant, and the mass gets larger, you gain momentum.  Meaning you gain range.

I know that Inferno was a "heavy" ball for a while.  Anyone know of a "heavy" ball today?

Ok, so what else would be needed to "fill" the requrements?  Just a thought expirement.

-Tyger

Either works brilliantly. The A5 flatline is easier to install; the 98 is a cheaper marker to begin with. Either system will perform about the same unless you need to get into really high rates of fire. Couple a flatline with a stock and remote line, and you're all set.

http://www.pbreview.com - www.pbreview.com has great reviews on both.

Blue Hopper wrote: By the way ever since your back your on the forums a lot more aren't you Tyger.

Well surgery will give you a LOT more free time than you think, ya know.

-Tyger

WDR-Tyger wrote: ...Ok, so what else would be needed to "fill" the requrements?  Just a thought expirement. -Tyger

I think Crewchief would be the best person to ask on this one since he has the military knowledge. My guess is that it's not possible to have a true paintball sniper because for the ranges to be the same as the military snipers, the paint would have to fly really far which means super high velocity (we're talking thousands of fps) and that is incredibly dangerous. With real guns that's acceptable because the goal is to kill the target but I think most paintball players would like to see their enemy live through the game, especially their friends. I guess it's possible to extend the range of some guns a little so snipers could at least fire from outside the range of return fire from the target. It's not an easy thing to do when safety is important.

SHH!!! Everybody, keep your pants on! Every time I see a Sniper debate, i will kill it with this... Enjoy, childish Snipers

http://www.webdogradio.us/video/tipclip/s2/p7.html - http://www.webdogradio.us/video/tipclip/s2/p7.html

Click on Mythbusting: Paintball snipers

Crewchief, a .223 and a .308 will have similar maximum range. It's the accuracy that is lost with trave time. A .223 will destabilize a lot sooner than a .308 because it's lighter, and mroe prone to atmospheric iregularities.

I've fired both .223s and.308s (OK, technically 5.56 and 7.62 NATO respectively) in competition target shooting. In one comp, where Iw as shooting a .308, there was a girl shooting beside me with a .223 bolt action- and she was able to shoot decent scores out to one thousand yards! It was pretty impressive. The bullets themselves will easily make the distance, but as you decrease the caliber you decrease inherent accuracy in the round.

There will me muzzle velocity differences, yes, but the distance will generally be fairly similar- remember that although a .308 can travel faster, it has a wider frontal area, meaning greater wind resistance. Conversely, a smaller profile .223 will be affected a bit more for each unit of wind resistance, since it has less mass and inertia. That's why the .308 is better out to the distance; it's not so much the differing velocitis, but the mass.

Hi all, I refuse to let this thread die a proper death!

The be-all-end-all argument against PB snipering can be found in the writings and posts of oldsoldier, who puts things much better than I could ever hope to. In fact I see it as a manual for playing Rec/scenario ball. It can be found here:

http://beta.a5ownersgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4511 - http://beta.a5ownersgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4511

I posted this story on a sniper thread on PB nation,. I'm just going ot paste it here as an example as to why not.

We did a "sniper reeducation game" with my buddies once. On of my friends swore that he could take all of us out if given the chance due to his superior PB Sniper skills. So we let him, we gave him a 10 min head start to get nice and camouflaged When it was time for us to go we formed a "skirmish line" leaving about 10 feet between men, walking shoulder to shoulder. we made no attempt to disguise ourselves and communicated down the line. When he took his shot and gogged one of us,. the forest echoed with the sound of half a dozen markers rapid firing into a 20 foot square. Sure we couldn't see him, but we knew where the shot came from. so we shredded the forest. And guess what. Holy overshoot batman!!

Tyger, What would allow PB snipers to exist? In addition to larger fields with more "open" space I would say the main factor is being able to shoot your opponent from such a great distance that he has no hope of returning fire. Doubling or tripiling the range. Now this wouldn't be possible unless we upped the FPS, got heavier and more solid ammunition. (Ones that wouldn't just burst under the pressure.) And possibly shaped ammunition for better accuracy.  But then if you did all of those things you would run the risk of "cracking open" masks in close combat.

I understand the though of it all but can't see the solution.

I hope your doing O.K. I really enjoy your show/site/videos!  Get well soon!

NJ Shootr wrote: ...We did a "sniper reeducation game" with my buddies once. On of my friends swore that he could take all of us out if given the chance due to his superior PB Sniper skills. So we let him, we gave him a 10 min head start to get nice and camouflaged When it was time for us to go we formed a "skirmish line" leaving about 10 feet between men, walking shoulder to shoulder. we made no attempt to disguise ourselves and communicated down the line. When he took his shot and gogged one of us,. the forest echoed with the sound of half a dozen markers rapid firing into a 20 foot square. Sure we couldn't see him, but we knew where the shot came from. so we shredded the forest. And guess what. Holy overshoot batman!! ...

Well, whether he was sniping or not, in that situation he should've allowed you all to pass and then taken a shot from a very well covered location where he could easily escape a barrage of paint should he need to. If he let you all pass and took a shot at your backs then the chances of you finding his general location would have been lessened greatly. You may still have found him but at least it would have been harder and he would've had a chance. In this case, I think the outcome just proved that this kid doesn't know what he's doing more than it disproved the existence of snipers. Also, in a scenario, I would definitely not engage a group like that in his situation. 1 vs 10 is never a good thing even if you're a ninja unless you want them to chase you as a diversion. In that case you're pretty much sacrificing yourself so your suicide has meaning. Otherwise you're just a moron without a purpose.

I guess I didn't make it clear,

Yes, if he had managed to get behind us and shoot someone in the back I am certain that the outcome would have been the same,. Maybe he would have survived a few seconds longer. Perhaps even a minute. We would have done what we did to him when he was in front of us. Fired and swarmed him. We would have known that the shot came from behind us and in which general section of the woods it came from,. so we would have done what we did when he shot us from the front. Everyone rushed toward the spot where the shot came from guns blazing. Yes 10 on 1 is sucky odds, but that's possibly what you are signing up for when you want to "lone wolf" and sniper. And I’m not saying that you can't call yourself a sniper, Hell call yourself a master ninja for all I care. Just realize that if you want to go and "snipe"

#1 you are not helping your team win. You are not contributing to your teams victory. While you are lying in the brush being all-cool, other players are out there earning points.

#2 there is a strong possibility that you will get "gorilla #$%@" by numerous enemies who are pissed that you shot at one of their guys. And since ghillies cause balls to bounce Allot of the guys I know make “extra sure” that the ghillie suited enemy is sure he is eliminated.

#3 since you don’t have the range advantage of a “real” military sniper all you are doing is being an ‘ambusher” which is cool if you are ambushing a squad with another squad. But you are ambushing a squad with yourself, be prepared to be known as “welt-man” (And do allot of walking back to the insert point)

SR_Crewchief wrote: Since most of the people in this forum don't understand basic ballistics I was trying to keep it simple. When you start talking about 1000yd or meter compitition matches your in a whole different world. Your talking about custom loads and non standard bullets to get a .223 to hit consistantly at those kinds of ranges. I doubt very much that she was using a 55 or even 62 grain military fmj, much less a factory load. You also have to take into account the rifling twist and the charge. All of which is irrelevant to the base discussion. I was trying to provide an example that most would readily understand about how the weight of the round and the muzzle velosity impact both range and accuracy. Neither of which can be manipulated enough in present day paintball to be segnificant. While not if match comp, I've fired the old NATO 5.56 in M16A1's, NATO 5.56 SS109 in M16A2's, 40mm from M203's and MK19's, .50cal from M2's, NATO 7.62 from M60's M60D's and miniguns. Most for over 20 years. Needless to say, I have a practical working knowledge of where the effectiveness of each breaks off. Just as you have practical working knowledge over and above mine of the effectiveness of your match loads. The point that I was making is that in the world of real firearms the differences in effective ranges is primarily controlled by what ammunition is being used. A better example probably would have been to show the difference between the old NATO 5.56 55gr fired from a M16A1 with a 1 in 12(originally 1 in 14) and the newer SS109 62gr fired from a M16A2 with a 1 in 7. That would take more research than I willing to do for a paintball topic.

Hah, fair enough. Nice to see a good solid firearms reply. I refuse to dignify this thread with anything relevant. ;)

Sounds like you'e definitely got a lot of experience with the heavier stuff. Personally I've spent most of my time on C7s (Canadian variant on the M16), C9 (the M249 SAW), C6 (M240), and some familiarization on the 203, 60mm mortar, and M67 grenades... Of all the weapons, I think the 203 is probably the most fun, followed by the C9 and C7... Good weapons.

As for my ammunition loads in the match shooting, we were actaully using standard NATO 5.56 x 45mm. SS109 I think. I only ever shot that out to 600yds though. The girl in the 1000yd competition with the .223 was only 14- I think she was using standard .223 remington; finding high quality ammo in Canada can be hard unless you're willing to lay down quite a bit of cash. Then again, how she shot that well with that ammoa t that distance is beyond me. I was personall using match grade 7.62 in that shoot- the military supplied our ammo for that competition. I got into target shooting with the Army Cadets, a military youth program. I was in the running for the national rifle tream, but didn't make it. My match experience is just two summers, one each on 5.56mm and 7.62mm. I won't claim to be an expert, so I'll definitely defer to you in terms of ammunition expertise on this one.

You mentioned the old 55gr 5.56 out of the M16 1/14. I heard a while back that one of the reasons they went to 1/12 was because the roudns were tumbling and hitting people sideways with really devastating wounds as a result- is that, in fact, what happened? I'm just kinda curious.

Pariel wrote: I seriously can't believe that people are STILL debating this. Please guys, grow up. This is debated way too much. Tiger proved they don't exist, no speedballer and very few experienced woodsballers will agree that they exist, and it's time to give up...

Heh, if only it were that easy to end these debates...