spray and pray vs. accuracy (long post..)
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Topic: spray and pray vs. accuracy (long post..)
Posted By: Frozen
Subject: spray and pray vs. accuracy (long post..)
Date Posted: 18 October 2004 at 8:01pm
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Ok, Sarge14 was the reason I decided to make this little shindig. For a
while now, I have seen various posts about how speedball players have
no accuracy, drop buckets of paint, and can hardly hit the broad side
of a barn. By the same token, woodsballers with their so called
accuracy, and claims of 3 shot bursts ruling the field, all sum up to
make me wonder...which technique really works better? Here is my take on it. Note the I have VERY limited speedball experience. Spray and pray: This is a bit of a misnomer. With the decent accuracy of most guns at short range these days, your average 10 round burst will go in a reasonably straight line. It is possible to shoot ropes and hit within inches of where you are aiming. Blind firing is a bit different, but most fields frown on that quite heavily. Sure, using this technique, you will need a large supply of cash. But in such a fast paced and enclosed environment, firepower does dictate movement. You don't move to predict angles so much as reacting to areas that are being plastered with paint. "Accuracy": Ok, woodsballers and old school crazy mofo pump speedballers play this card a lot. "Why do you need 20 bps, when I can get you out with one?" The answer for this in speedball is fairly obvious. Suppresive fire, posting angles, whatever it's called. Every shot has a purpose. Most are not even meant to take out the opposing team. The purpose is to deny the opposition the ability to move and work the angles to their advantage. The team who does this most effectively will win. On the other hand, there is the woodsball element. Playing woods requires patience. Flanking is king. No sense blazing off 30 shots just to hit the guy whos rump is sticking out behind that tree. Or is there? More than likely, no. If your first few shots go wide, you will be very surprised at how much skinnier the guy will get. The remaining balls will bounce harmlessly off. However, one of the key failings I notice when playing woods, is that when a player tries to move up, their rate of fire is slowed considerably. This generally alerts the other player of your intentions, and they will react accordingly. That then leads into working in pairs, aka ambush/flanking/cool stuff/whatever. One guy drills a hoel in the other team's trees, while the stealthier fellow bounces up the edges of the field and outlfanks them. The role of each is inherently different. Starting a firefight behidn enemy lines is a BAD thing. The flanker will want to use minimum firepower to maximum effect, hopefully a 2-3 shot burst for each target, since most will be distracted by your friend with the itchy finger. To sum up this absurdly long post, here's the deal from my side of the line. Speedball uses 'spray and pray' which isn't really all that random or innacurate, to secure angles and enable pushes up the field. Bunkering is generally a 2-5 shot thing, because you can get in trouble for overdoing things. That right there required at least a basic semblance of accuracy. Also, kinder players will generally aim for a pack or mask when they catch someone with their pants down. Woodsball uses firepower to distract the opposition. One or more players use any means necessary to keep the other team from knowing what's up. Trees offer surprisingly good cover, and unless you get sloppy, it is a rare player who gets shot out in an even firefight. Flanking is the name of the game here. Using stealth and light firepower, you can roll the other teams flanks very easily working in small numbers. This is the longest post I have ever done. Word. I may have drifted off the main topic a bit from tiem to time, but I hope you got the general idea of where I was going. Maybe. Ok so basically, discuss spray and pray vs accuracy, and their functions within speedball and woodsball. |
Replies:
Posted By: bravecoward
Date Posted: 18 October 2004 at 8:08pm
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quite posibly the most thought out frozen post next to ther fight with ganrkill over what time it is i user\ alot of firepower in woodsball too, but i guess i'm in-normal. ------------- 
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Posted By: Bango
Date Posted: 18 October 2004 at 8:13pm
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Good post. Pretty much covers it. ------------- http://imageshack.us"> 
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Posted By: Frozen
Date Posted: 18 October 2004 at 8:31pm
I do have the occasional well thought out anti-sniper post, but those are all on my †Sniper† account. Ironic eh? What do you generally do in woodsball though? Rush the other teams center? Hug the flanks? Hang back and clean up the remnants/watch for opposing flankers who sneak through? |
bravecoward wrote:Posted By: Detz
Date Posted: 18 October 2004 at 8:38pm
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i like to hug the flaks, maybe rush the center, i guess that depends on the situation. if i have good cover in the back i dont mind getting a team mate to rush the center while i cover. most ppl i play with will trust me to watch there backs and pin the other team down. i was just wondering where u were going with the 'accuracy' part in the original post? u didnt really mention anything about it other then u dont really have it in woodsball????? ------------- DETZ A-5 20oz Pure Energy on/off flatline to come: lapco bigshot HPA - still not sure |
Posted By: Frozen
Date Posted: 18 October 2004 at 8:41pm
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heh...no... I was pointing out that accuracy is not the woodsballers
crutch...people who are diehard woodsball fans always say how they can
hit anything with a small burst, and don't need a fast gun to do it. That is what i was saying is not correct. Although the part about flankign does touch upon the benefits of sneaking up and getting a few 3-4 shot burts in. 4 shots is less likely to attract attention than 25... edit: truth be told I'm not sure where I was going with this, it's just my idea layed out for all to see. That post is way to long for any hope of organization. |
Posted By: BearClaw
Date Posted: 18 October 2004 at 8:43pm
I play both speed and woods but no matter what i tend to conserve my paint (Cant afford not too  )
and i do all right. Just cause the name says SPEED dont mean you
got shoot 30bps most places i played my 4-5bps worked just fine and was
plenty fast as plain old supressor fire. I dont know speeds nice but i ont think it is as nessesary as your post seemed to make it seem. ------------- AGD 68 Automag Azodin KPII Sheridan PGP2K Tippmann Crossover XVR Tippmann ProCarbine Tippmann SL68-II Tippmann TiPX |
Posted By: Frozen
Date Posted: 18 October 2004 at 8:46pm
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No i didn't mean to come across as saying speed is more important. I
meant to say that people who say speed is useless are wrong. People who say accuracy is useless/not possible with speed, or whatever, are also wrong. edit: basically, speed is useful for controllign the other teams movements, and dictating what they can and can't do. Putting a solid wall of paint between two places essentially cuts that off from any movement. Accuracy is necessary for short range firefights, or for ambushing people. |
Posted By: Shadowminion
Date Posted: 18 October 2004 at 8:55pm
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It seems to me , that Frozen / Sniper has outlined the similarities in speedball and woodsball , both use supression fire , both play angles . Spray and pray ,may be best described (IMHO ) as sustained supression fire , not necessarily pointless , but can be a seroius drain on the pocketbook as well as the on-hand resources in a game . I , unfortunately , have not had the opportunity to play any woodsball for more than a decade , but when I did , the firefights rivalled anything in Speedball . My first experiences in PB were mixed , WB/SP , and it seemed the emphasis in Woods was for stealth , ambush , and accuracy . in speedball nowadays it seems like laying out a wall of paint , bunkering , and generally a lower emphasis on skill with a higher value placed on Firepower . Woodsball tactics seem to work in speedball , and Vice -versa . thats what I have seen . Accuracy is a Virtue in any game , and when you're shooting 30+ BPS , it's hard to aim decently ... ------------- SL68-II , micro honed and polished .688" bore . Tuff Enuf . Widowmaker , under construction |
Posted By: Frozen
Date Posted: 18 October 2004 at 9:00pm
I was waiting for you to reply. Summed it up quite nicely I believe... |
Posted By: Shadowminion
Date Posted: 18 October 2004 at 9:07pm
Heh , I've asked this question more than once , so, I'll ask it again , just throwing it out there for everybody to kick around , when considering speed , how much is enough ?, lol, I never heard anybody claim they could duck a rope of 10 BPS !! (much less 5 BPS  )------------- SL68-II , micro honed and polished .688" bore . Tuff Enuf . Widowmaker , under construction |
Posted By: Frozen
Date Posted: 18 October 2004 at 9:09pm
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It's easier to get some snap shooting out when their isn't a wall of
paint covering the entire vertical face of that side of the bunker, so
I'd say 10 bps is slightly easier to play with than 15+. Arbitrary numbers, and remember, I'm making this up as I go, I've only been speedballin' twice. |
Posted By: Shadowminion
Date Posted: 18 October 2004 at 9:20pm
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Point given there Frozen , lol, but next time you out goofing off , have somebody put 2BPS out at Yer bunker , THATS hard to get some snap shooting off from, unless a person is bling Edit: Blind ;firing ,it takes approximately 3/4 of a second for your brain to recognize a target and send a voluntary muscle signal out to your body to take any specific action (learned that in a ,Umm mandatory driver's Ed class I had the pleasure of being invited to some time back ) . Anyway,, target aquisition and execution , applicable to either speed,or woods , takes some time . lets say 1/2 sec.. snapshot one , get a look see , snap 2 , snap and shoot (hope he didnt move ) . The reaction times of your oponnent are the same , so , he cant react to your snapping out and firing , until you've gotten back to cover ,unless he anticipates your actions , I see a lot of anticipation shooting in speedball , and unless you are really close ,it seems to be a matter of luck , hence the term , Spray and Pray . Bling firing , heh <edited from above> ------------- SL68-II , micro honed and polished .688" bore . Tuff Enuf . Widowmaker , under construction |
Posted By: Shadowminion
Date Posted: 18 October 2004 at 9:40pm
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Ack !! I killed this thread ! ------------- SL68-II , micro honed and polished .688" bore . Tuff Enuf . Widowmaker , under construction |
Posted By: nickman98
Date Posted: 18 October 2004 at 10:14pm
| speedball isnt always abouting getting someone out on every shot. hitting bunkers and covering lanes sometimes does more for your team then popping someone. if you can keep a person in thier bunker while your front man/men move up its very helpful....course hitting them is always accepted, but just because a back player uses a lot of paint dosnt mean he is always missing. |
Posted By: Robotech
Date Posted: 18 October 2004 at 11:58pm
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Personally my philosophy is that there are times for each tactic and the situation dictates what you use. Being one of those crazy old pumper dudes I am more into the taking you out with one shot school. (Hence the sig) Hence the reason I'm a flanker. Yet, on the speedball field, I'm the guy that maintains suppression fire. The type of games my buddies and I play on the speedball field are probably quite different from how a professional tournament team would play (okay, not probably...definately) but I find that I can use 3-5 round bursts to keep someone behind their bunker fairly well while my guys are moving up. This also allows me to shoot one position then quickly switch to another position...and another...and then by the time I'm done laying down on the third the first guy is getting brazen enough to show his face again and we start all over. Like I said, we're not talking pros here. LOL But very good comparison and definition. Just for me, old habits die hard and I can't see myself just slinging paint. LOL ------------- New to the sport? http://www.b17queenofthesky.com/paintball/index.html"> 
Proud owner of a WS-66 A-5 ACP |
Posted By: Bobeo
Date Posted: 19 October 2004 at 8:35am
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I like to put it this way. People who play woods ball think that speedball takes no skill and anyone with a fast gun can obviously do well. I would bet that if any of these woodsballers who think like thatgot a DM4 and played a game of speedball aginst any experienced speeedball team with pump guns, the team with the pumps would win. They are two different games with totally different ways to play. ------------- Proto Matrix/Crossfire 92/45 Fund- $730/1150 |
Posted By: Robotech
Date Posted: 19 October 2004 at 9:00am
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I'd definitely agree with you Bobeo. The best paintballers in the world have come to understand a simple truth that most players miss. The differences between the games, woods and speed, are subtle and both styles require skill to be successful. Generalization of any form of paintball...that speedballers just shoot tons of paint and woodsballers all want to be snipers...is wrong. Frontmen in speedball shoot very little paint. They are mainly snap-shooting. And if you're covering your man moving to the opposing side's flank in woodsball, you better be throwing out a lot of paint. Someday I hope people realize that we as a community should be more concerned about the wellbeing of the sport as a whole and not bicker and argue over who plays the better form of the game. ------------- New to the sport? http://www.b17queenofthesky.com/paintball/index.html">
Proud owner of a WS-66 A-5 ACP |
Posted By: falcon
Date Posted: 19 October 2004 at 9:15am
I have to agree and disagree with you on this one. Exspecially the part that I highlighted in blue. The skill that is more emphasised in speedball is not so much of where you put the ball, its where YOU are, and how you got there, not where the BALL is going, and to a point how fast it got there. When you have 10 to 20 (5 man to 10 man teams) people trying to get to one itty-bitty flag, on an itty-bitty field, and get it past another 5-10 people (the other team) movment is key, and player position is key. You have your back players dumpin cases of paint, and your front players just trying to stay alive, its all about movement and knowing where the other team is, cutting the angle, controling the key bunkers. And to do so, you need volume of paint, or its going to be really easy to move into those spots. So its not really a fact of us speedballers using a case a paint to eleminate one player. Its all about movement and positions. And for that lucky time, accuracy for when a player messes up, sticks out a little to far, and you get to tag him. Other then those its all about the bunker. Thats my 2 cents on the subject. ------------- White Ion White Empire Reloader Blackheart Board CP Roller Trigger Hybrid Feedneck Unimount2 68/3000 CF Pure Energy Tank 
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Posted By: ScarFace22
Date Posted: 19 October 2004 at 10:39am
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Most speedballers don't spray and pray its the ignorant people who don't know the game of speedball that think that. ------------- 
Check my thread in the Great guns thread for Timmy tech help or PM me |
Posted By: The Man
Date Posted: 19 October 2004 at 11:30am
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Exactly Scareface it takes alot of
skill to play speedball. It's not just shooting fast there alot that
goes in ain speeball game each position has there part some
''sprayand pray'' the back player have to keep the players on the other
team down/shot lanes so the fronts can move up also there not spraying there laing
down streams of paint to keep the opponents down.
It's those ignorant woodsballers you say OMG you shoot fast you suck.
-Mike ------------- Cp critical Bob Long Lengens painball park Team Rendition |
Posted By: ScarFace22
Date Posted: 19 October 2004 at 12:53pm
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Well yea. It has to do with aiming straight, being able to see all angels and not getting blindsided. It takes just as much skill to play speedball as it does woodsball. To many woodsball people THINK they have almighty accuracy and can hit someone from 100ft away with one shot. They think just because the speedballers shoot fast they stink at paintball. Thats just stupid and ignorant to think that. -------------
Check my thread in the Great guns thread for Timmy tech help or PM me |
Posted By: DrunkDriver
Date Posted: 19 October 2004 at 3:12pm
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A shindig is a party not an informitive post like the one you made, nice job. Great job not bringing up snipers. ------------- http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=260991706090alb8rs.jpg"> 
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Posted By: paintballpunkGD
Date Posted: 19 October 2004 at 3:37pm
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hmmm...to me, you can't compare speedball and woodsball. They are two completely different games. It's like comparing Football and Soccer. Tactics from both styles of play can be used, but in the end, you can't compare WB and SB ------------- "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." -Voltaire |
Posted By: mobius_1
Date Posted: 19 October 2004 at 4:46pm
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The styles of play used to play in both wb & sb are both derived from small group and light infantry tactics. It is that some key points are emphasized more than others in both wb & sb. ------------- "Here are beauties which pierce like swords or burn like cold iron." -C.S. Lewis |
Posted By: Frozen
Date Posted: 19 October 2004 at 6:29pm
They are not two completely different games. The tactics and objectives are generally the same, but they use a different means to justify the end. Flanking and suppressive fire play just as big a role in speedball as they do in woodsball. Just as stealth. If the other team doesn't know you are at the 50, or they don't know you are behind that tree, you are set. The games are different environments, but they still play the same in the larger scale. |
Posted By: @5 M@$T@
Date Posted: 19 October 2004 at 7:27pm
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I didnt read the long post but accuracy always wins against spray and pray. Unless your against me when Im sprayin and prayin with accuracy. (+) ------------- I'm going to the darkside... |
Posted By: S\/\/4T-L()G4N
Date Posted: 19 October 2004 at 7:30pm
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I didn't read the whole thread. Enough said on that.
I think this is the best way to sum it up. In speedball, if I am not being shot at, I am doing one of three things.
NONE of those things are good for the other team. So if they are shooting at me, I can't do bad things to them. Waste of paint? I think not. ------------- 
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Posted By: Frozen
Date Posted: 19 October 2004 at 7:33pm
The post wasn't really even about spray and pray vs. accuracy... It was more about how those terms are misused, and are more given to tactics rather than hard and fast styles of play. For example, close range ambushes benefit from accuracy, and a swift, decisive strike rather than bucketloads of paint. Spray and pray is more like suppressive fire, and in decent players, always has a purpose, whther it be blocking lanes, cuttign off sides of bunkers, or keeping someoen tucked nice and tight into that tree of theirs. Thanks for trying to add to a discussion with something that is more or less unrelated...
Exactly! |
Posted By: ump107
Date Posted: 19 October 2004 at 10:28pm
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Spray and pray and accuracy are used in both games as situations dictate. I prefer to try to almost take aim and use the least amount of paint to take out an opponent. However sometimes you need to lay down suppressive fire to allow your teammates to move up on a position. With that both games are really supriseing similar and different at the same time. Depending on your position on a WB team you may use similar tactics to SB. A small forward team moving through a trail in the woods once they make contact with the OPFOR they use tactics similar to speedball. They may use rapid suppressive fire and movement behind objects that act as bunkers to shield themselves from opposing fire. They use flanking movements to get shots on the opposing players. If you look at some SB games you see similar actions except it starts out with contact with the OPFOR. Players use bunkers to provide cover and some players attempt to flank the opponents using covering fire to nock out other players. The biggest difference in WB and SB is that in WB players on sometimes-larger teams can set up an ambush or attempt to use their marksmanship to eliminate other players from a covered position, generally using cover to pick of selected targets has mixed results, sometimes good sometimes bad. Some scenario games are also very similar to SB use a scenario in a building or a area set up with obstacles that you have to find other players is basically Close Quarter Combat. The people I play with are trying to get into a Fire Dept Training building to play a few games, it is set up like a house with 2 floors multiple rooms and a basement to make it better it is usually pretty dark inside to add difficulty. All in all there is lot to be said about the different types of games. Granted you most likely won’t see a large WB scenario game on TV. The type of tactics, battle conditions and duration of game would require more of a combat journalist approach to videoing the game where in SB cameras can be set up on the field and view all of the action. This is just my 2 cents and thoughts on the 2 different types of games. ------------- Tippman 98 Custom 14" J&J Ceramic Barrel BT-16 Barrel kit BT-Folding stock JT USA Spectra ProShield "If you must runaway do so quietly; Screaming looks bad on the news.” (unknown) |
Posted By: Liquid3
Date Posted: 21 December 2004 at 2:11pm
| Hey! This is one post I have to add my two cent in. I am one of the rare players who plays woods and speed equally. Both games use the same skills. The emphasis of which skills are mostly used are different though. I have been attacked from the rear in woodsball and I have pinned down multiple players while the rest of the team slid out the side door unhit. I hit 2 of 6 guys by using a combination of snapshooting and pure bps suppesion. I have also made moves into the snake and other bunkers in speedball that nobody saw and taken out people w/ one shot each so as not to alert them to my presence for as long as possible. I think people make too much of a big deal about which is better woods or speed. ITS ALL PAINTBALL! Ballers unite! Ballers Rule! I'm not mad just tired of everyone picking on the supposed "other" side. |
Posted By: Liquid3
Date Posted: 21 December 2004 at 2:17pm
| P.S. Those picts of Lisa Harvey and the tricked out blue 98C are great. can't decide which one I like better. Yes I can LOL |
Posted By: indrul2.3
Date Posted: 22 December 2004 at 8:10am
| think about it, if the other team is spraying at you, do you really think you are going to have time to aim? |
Posted By: Blue Hopper
Date Posted: 22 December 2004 at 6:20pm
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Yall all need to understand one thing about the conception that woodsballers tend to think that if you use tons of paint then you suck. Well I'm a woodsballer and mainly were all short on cash. If you don't go to a field and shoot only what you think will get someone out then you get to play more. So alot of woodsballers see you speedballers and think what a bunch of rich people shooting so much and getting just as much outs as we do. Thats one reason alot of woodsballers think that they have no accuracy. The other group of woodsballers are the sniper group who think you should only use one paintball per out. Oh and by the way about the flanking you should use small amounts of paint. Not always true if you get around you want to make noise from behind them. It can create a scare and have them truning heads at that point the rest of the team can more easily move up while they're taking care of you. ------------- Notice: The views exspressed in this post do not represent that of the Tippmann Company or the Paintball community but solely the individual who type it. |