No, its not SOOO much more accurate to blow the competion away.

Remember the barrel makes a large difference of accuracy as well glass. Granted a cocker does have that LITTLE bit more accuracy because of what I said in my 1st post, you still cannot really tell the difference if you got a pretty good barrel on the open bolt marker IMO.

So basicly there is a small amount of difference in a Closed, and Open bolt, but not so much where as you make it sound like I can hit a target with my cocker like butter, and the next gun cannot. It also depends on the players accuracy, how he holds the gun, and what paint and bore match he has.

lol.

....long story....

yo DJ can u make that sig any bigger?  lmfao

There are two guns that are infamous for short stroking, automag & autococker. Mags are a blow forward type marker.

GlassJaw, I thought you had a cocker.

Cockers do have ball detents.

http://www.webdogradio.us/video/tipclip/s2/2WDR02lo.wmv - Click here to download  the 2.9 Meg Lo-Res version

http://www.webdogradio.us/video/tipclip/s2/2WDR02.wmv - Click here to download the 8.9 Meg Hi-Res version

to backup cockernoob

2k4kev wrote: so does that mean you can only really short stroke with a closed bolt gun?

Slider frames, and sometime Hinge frames you can SS./

Beg to differ Stunna , the mass and inertia of the bolt on a closed bolt marker , at firing will be decidedly less Prone to small movement than would a "Blowback" type action where you have a metal slug accelerating and striking the valve when you fire .

Granted , when in high ROF there will be negligable differences , but that wasnt the question . Read,, THINK,,,, then post , oh Impertinent One .

Sir Stunna Lot wrote: ^^^ dont ever correct me with your ignorance because accuracy depends on many variables and bolt position isnt one of them

No offense man, but you don't know what your talking about. The reason a closed bolt marker is inherently more accurate than an open bolt has almost nothing to do with ball movement or strike force.

Closed bolt markers and firearms are accurately superior through operation because they can obtain a better seal when launching the projectile.
When an open bolt marker/firearm fires, extra gas is used to propel the bolt assembly back into its primed stage. This does two things to the projectile -
1. Unevenly placed force is applied to the back of the projectile, giving it a less stable trajectory as it leaves the barrel. This makes it less accurate than it could be due to it's lopsided takeoff.
2. When the bolt begins to return to it's prime postition, gas vents to the inner parts of the gun. This creates inconsistency becuase of the complexity of the inner frame and the added variables it presents.

Bottom line: Closed bolt markers are more accurate because it removes a considerable number of variables from the equation. The difference between a bolt action rifle and one of a semi-auto design, for instance, will be quite noticable. In paintball, this won't make a huge difference, but it will help.

He seems to completely ignore the points made ,disproving his theorys , just cuz he says so, dont make it so,,

For example , His lengthy, and obviously incorrect dissertation on blowback markers , he seems to think that blowback is caused at the front of the bolt, well, Got news for him , the reason blowback markers operate ,is they have blowback ports at the valve that direct blowback gasses to propell the rear bolt back to its cocked position .

there is a problem , called blowback , that is caused by a damaged front bolt Oring, but what the hell bearing does that have with what Glassjaws question is ?!?

Stupid Rises to the level of platinum in this case , obviously he is right , no matter what , LOL, maybe if we give him a cookie, and hold our tongues, he will go away,,

Edit : as far as RoF , I hold that it is useful if you have the Skill to use it . I play speedball with a pump , against some very skilled players , and some other extremely skilled pumpers , the pumps, as a general rule , are ,if not the last ones standing , are close to the last ones on the field , Why ?? accuracy , tactics , skill , the basics of any sucessful game ,,, Higer ROF will enhance a player with the above skills , and to a degree , Mask an inexperienced players lack of them,, to say that ROF is the end all - cure all is just ludicrous , and a statement typical of one lacking in at least one of the skills mentioned , not to mention common sense .

 Again Read,,, THINK,,,, Post.

Sir Stunna Lot wrote: first all, comparing a paintball marker mechanic's to a firearm is completely useless, we all know that by now, thats a very weak argument... the physics applied to the projectile alone is enough to exclude any possible similarities

Good post, but you're missing the point. When it comes to accuracy you obviously can't compare a paintball marker to a real firearm, but the physics still apply. Bolt seal has nothing to do with what kind of projectile you're launching. It's about the size, shape, and consistency of the forces that are being applied to that object.

Keep in mind that the level difference that bolt seal will make in paintball is, for the most part, negligible. Things like the quality of the marker, the design and construction, and the barrel will more than make up the difference.

That said, the reason CBM's are usually more accurate is because the bolt doesn't move until the ball has already left the barrel, hence bolt movement and the variables it presents do not effect the ball. I don't know if this holds up at higher bps, but for markers that run in the single digits, this equates to better performance.

The second part of my post was rather abreviated, (sorry, I was late for work), but what I was trying to point out is that when the bolt begins to return to the primed position in a OBM, the gases that are applying pressure to the ball are sudenly dispersed into the marker's internals, the feedneck, etc... Depending on how long your barrel is, this can cause a sort of pressure backlash effect on the ball, creating inconsistency. The bolt's seal doesn't matter at this point because the bolt is already open past the point of sealing.

Again, it's important to note that this will not make the biggest difference in the world. If you were to build two autocockers (one open bolt and one closed), out of the same materials, assembled the same way with the same paint and the same barrel, the CMB would only be slightly more accurate than the OBM. But especially with speedball players, the little bit suposedly makes a difference.

*Inhales*  So, all things considered, CMB's are better than OBM's more in terms of theory than in actual application because, as you said, paintball has simply too many variables and is too inconsistent for it to make much of a difference.

Ps. Sorry for the 12 page post.

Slimz.357 wrote: That said, the reason CBM's are usually more accurate is because the bolt doesn't move until the ball has already left the barrel, hence bolt movement and the variables it presents do not effect the ball. I don't know if this holds up at higher bps, but for markers that run in the single digits, this equates to better performance.

Okay, maybe I have this all wrong but I'm looking over the process here and have some questions/thought/random mussings.

First off, if a marker is capable of firing 15 BPS but is only being fired at 4 BPS, does is cycle slower or is the time it takes for the marker to complete it's cycle the same?  If so then wouldn't the amount of motion after the shot be the same regardless if it shot 1 BPS or 15 BPS?  And are we not talking about the motion of the bolt after the shot affecting the shot itself?

So I did some math...bad math but math all the same.  In order to acheive 15 BPS...heck, make it easy on my math retarded brain...say 10 BPS, you have to fire every 10th of a second.  0.1 second per shot.  That means from the ball being fired to the bolt beind fully rearward in order to load the next ball, is .05 second or 5/100ths of a second. A ball traveling at 280 FPS will go 28 feet in .1 second and 14 feet in .05 second.  At .01 second it will have traveled just shy of 3 feet.  This means that with a 1 foot barrel (12 inches) the ball will be out of the barrel in about .0036 second (or about 3.6 THOUSANDTHS of a second).  Now, this does not account for acceleration or deceleration because, of course, the ball doesn't start instantly at 280 FPS to begin it's travel down the barrel nor does it remain at a constant velocity in the barrel once it finishes accelerating because the friction of the remaining barrel length will slow it down.  (When I swtiched from a 14" barrel to a 20" barrel velocity went from about 280 to 260.) 

Since the argument is that the movment of the bolt will generate a movement of the marker (kick) and thus cause the shooter to move the barrel from it's initial aiming point THUS (a lot of thuses) causing the ball to deviate from it's aimed possition since it has not left the barrel the question becomes just how much does the barrel move in 3.6 thousandths of a second and is this enough to cause a major deviation in flight path?   

In single shots, and considering the ranges we are dealing with, this minor deviation while the shot is in the barrel is not going to affect the shots placement down range.  In addition, due to the effect of Vortex Shedding a round paintball's flightpath will be far more affected by Vortex Shedding than it will be by this minor kick during firing. 

Now, in multiple shots the amount of recoil a marker has will affect how well the shooter can put their marker back on target after each shot.  The less the recoil the quicker the shooter can fire without missing their target.  However, this has more to do with gun design in relation to striker motion than bolt motion.  Here, typical blowback markers would show a decrease in accuracy in high ROF situations because of the force required to move not only a heavy striker but also overcome the force of the Velocity Spring. 

However close or far I am away from the truth I cannot say...it is mearly an opinion based on observations and something, while discussed, hadn't really been quantified by anyone. 

Now as far as the bolt being closed when fired, in single shot situations again I do not see the difference between the two.  If the bolt is closed and at rest when the ball is fired, is not the ball then moving once the air hits it?  What change is there if the ball is moving before the air hits it?  What makes the ball in motion prior to it's main acceleration less consistant...I cannot say accurate since this motion has to do with the projectile's velocity consistancy as it relates to accuracy rather than the physical "aiming" of the projectile by the barrel and shooter. 

In a rapid fire situation, there is no difference between a closed bolt and an open bolt (this does not, in any way, take into account other workings within the marker that may contribute to the marker's accuracy such as how the air is delivered or motion of the striker...only the bolt process itself).  Both bolts are moving the ball forward before the ball is fired.  Both bolts are in forward motion just thousandth's of a second before the ball is fired.  Regardless of whether or not the closed bolt system stops the bolt just prior to firing the fact is that in order to fire at the same rates the markers must cycle their mechanisms at a certain minimum cycle rate in order to maintain that ROF. Since the time between firing is so short, the ball does not have enough time to come to a complete rest before being fired from the marker.

Again, just my thoughts and I may be totally off.  But it's just the way I see it.

Slimz.357 wrote: That said, the reason CBM's are usually more accurate is because the bolt doesn't move until the ball has already left the barrel, hence bolt movement and the variables it presents do not effect the ball. I don't know if this holds up at higher bps, but for markers that run in the single digits, this equates to better performance.

I presume you can point to some scientific evidence to support this claim, rather than mere conjecture?

Are you saying that the movment of the bolt forward is moving the marker and thus throwing off the aim and affecting accuracy?  That's the only way I see a OBM being less accurate than a CBM.

In a nutshell Robo, that summarizes it, but as Stunna said, at Very high rates of fire, the difference becomes less and less aparant .

We are splitting hairs here, but as a general rule , (with comparably priced markers ) the CBM will hold a Slight advantage over OBM markers in accuracy .

My money is on skill first , the other differences are indeed slight , but do exist .

Well, if it is marginally with a solid round and we are talking about a liquid filled round I would say the difference is so minimal to be non-existant.  This would thus lend credance to the theory that a CBM is no more or less accurate by its bolt design than a OBM.  On top of this, any marginal difference between the two would be completely negated by the fact that we are shooting 3 gram spherical projectiles that are easily succeptable to the forces of Vortex Shedding which causes random flight paths anyway. If the affects of Vortex Shedding are greater than the marginal difference that may exist with CBM and OBM than really is there any measureable performance difference at all even when bench tested under the conditions you state?  Doesn't sound like it. I mean, if you shot a SOLID paintball that was greater than 3 grams then perhaps the difference would be apparent, but not with traditional paintball rounds.

To take something that, in theory under the best conditions would post possibly marginal better results and turn that into a blanket statement of one is more accurate than the other is a pretty long stretch.

Okay, best we can come up with then,,, is to agree to disagree .

Disallowing any and all variables that may be introduced by anything other than the marker , I still hold CBM are slightly more prone to accuracy .

 By the way , I shoot exclusively OBM (cept for the pump ) , and have found enough modifications , techniques , and Tricks to make it more than an equal for most high end CBM's for accuracy , both at High ROF , and as a single shooter 1-2 BPS .

Beginning work today on my new project , "Widowmaker" , Pure mechanical 98C , patterned after my Desert camo 98 , with a few more improvements .

Shadowminion wrote: I shoot exclusively OBM (cept for the pump ) , and have found enough modifications , techniques , and Tricks to make it more than an equal for most high end CBM's for accuracy , both at High ROF , and as a single shooter 1-2 BPS .

Wouldn't this also prove that CBMs are not more accurate than OBM purely because of bolt design?  I mean, maybe with real firearms but that isn't the issue here.

Not being argumentitve nor choosing sides...just seeking the logical truth behind the matter. Thus I question EVERYTHING. 

Tis good to question all that you encounter , but ask yourself this, why is it, then , that pumps are considered more inherently accurate ?

The reason I chose to shoot a blowback marker , Tippmann specifically , was their reputation for simplicity , and reliability . Money was a great factor too, I set up two complete sets of gear (My wife chose the Spyder imagine , solely on the flashy looks Vs. Tippman ).

The only thing that it really proves,is that MY OBM is more accurate , but I questioned a lot of things , like paint to bore match , ballistics and aerodynamics , Mechanical and design considerations , propellant characteristics , my skills , and the physical limits of the equipment and the laws of physics as they apply to Paintball .

I have put many hours into my last set-up , tuning , modifying , testing , and playing , both with the Tippy, and the Wifes Kingman . I enjoy tinkering with things, and have done so ,for over 30 years professionally (electrical , mechanical Industrial production mechanic , currently working in the avionics industry again ) . So,, I am pretty good at what I do , I like taking the possible , and making it practical .

I  Found that the pump IS more accurate , anyway , I make a Much higher percentage of shots with it , than with the Semi . Maybe cuz I take that split second more time aiming, LOL ! the guys on the field I play at (most recently last nite , pump again) seem to think so too, even the "Team members" I play against .

I do not agree with you Stunna, but I will defend your right to state your beliefs  

Later all , Rarin' to start the new project !!

Who goes around reading year old threads anyways? Did you search for this?

 ill spell check my posts, or do you not like me doing chatroom language with the lower case i's and saying things like u instead of you????

p.s. still lovin your sig

I just think it looks better with correct punctuation and capitalization. The Aim talk just makes it harder for people to understand what you are trying to get across.

I like my sig to.