Iraq new terrorist breeding ground
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Topic: Iraq new terrorist breeding ground
Posted By: goodsmitty
Subject: Iraq new terrorist breeding ground
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 2:46am
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1802&ncid=716&e=16&u=/washpost/20050114/ts_washpost/a7460_2005jan13 - http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1802& ;ncid=716&e=16&u=/washpost/20050114/ts_washpost/a746 0_2005jan13 Another vicious blow to the "we were right to invade Iraq mindset".... Some of the highlights: President Bush ( http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/washpost/ts_washpost/a7460_2005jan13/13983365/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22President%20Bush%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw - news - http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/washpost/ts_washpost/a7460_2005jan13/13983365/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=President%20Bush - web sites ) has frequently described the Iraq war as an integral part of U.S. efforts to combat terrorism. But the council's report suggests the conflict has also helped terrorists by creating a haven for them in the chaos of war. Before the U.S. invasion, the CIA said Saddam Hussein ( http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/washpost/ts_washpost/a7460_2005jan13/13983365/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Saddam%20Hussein%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw - news - http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/washpost/ts_washpost/a7460_2005jan13/13983365/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Saddam%20Hussein - web sites ) had only circumstantial ties with several al Qaeda members. Osama bin Laden ( http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/washpost/ts_washpost/a7460_2005jan13/13983365/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Osama%20bin%20Laden%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw - news - http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/washpost/ts_washpost/a7460_2005jan13/13983365/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Osama%20bin%20Laden - web sites ) rejected the idea of forming an alliance with Hussein and viewed him as an enemy of the jihadist movement because the Iraqi leader rejected radical Islamic ideals and ran a secular government.
------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Replies:
Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 6:26am
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Sigs too big dude. But anyway, about the Iraq being a terrorist
breeding ground....well yeah, thank you capitan obvious. I don't really
think we should have went there at all like you but there are some
major benefits if we can pull this off. A strong hold for democracy in
the middle of all that maddness would be a real blow to our enemies in
the fundamentalist muslim community. There are already dissident
movements growing in Iran and Syria and really all of the major muslim
countries and I think if we can show that it will work in Iraq it may
just be the push that they need to actually do something and make some
changes. Right now though, my major beef with Iraq and the Bosh
administration is the handling of the war so far. From underfunding to
under-equiping to being to hasty(IMHO) with putting the Iraqis in
charge and some other stuff I think we really have stuck ourselves in a
jam just because we've been stupid with the way we've executed our
"plan" so far. Oh and about your sig dude......they died for each other. Ask your bro. Edit: as a side note, if you notice, the islamic terrorist that hate us don't really need much of an excuse so I don't know how many more terrorists we are creating in being there. I mean, Ossama decided he hated us when we went in for the first Gulf War and that one was completely justified. -------------  |
Posted By: goodsmitty
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 8:08am
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You're right, my signature was a little too much. I like this better anyhow. Now back to the discussion. What does it take for you guys to admit that this war is an absolute disaster? We have given up on finding WMD. Now the CIA is saying that we have turned the country we planned to free into a terrorist breeding ground. The whitehouse says that the elections will certainly not be fair due to people being afraid to vote, but we'll have them anyway. What has gone right thus far? We've failed in everything we've attempted to accomplish there. If the Iraqi people want freedom, let them fight for it themselves. It is time to pull out. March 20th is the second anniversary of the war. I will be in Washington D.C. protesting in hopes there won't be a third anniversary. Hope to see you all there also. ------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 8:13am
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There are no terrorist breeding grounds, because according to one British Journalist the Al-quada network and terrorism is just a figment of George Bush's imagination, all made up to replace the Soviet empire as the Republican parties boogyman.
The holocaust never happened, it was a Isreali conspiricy to legitimize their creation of Isreal. George Bush and the Isreali's set off a nuclear device to create the earthquake and then the tsuami. The American servicemen delievering the aid to the tsunami victims are the advance party of an invasion of those peacefull islamic nations. Dan Rather was right in his reporting, the investigation is only part of the vast right wing conspiricy to degrade the truth in media of the major networks. There is no left bias in major media, only the rightwing bias of Fox and talk radio jeopardizes americas view of the truth. ------------- 
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 8:20am
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Only when a Democratic administration intervenes in world affairs (Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia) is it considered correct and we should never question a Democratic Presidents decesions in world affairs.
And my question still looms, why was our intervention in the unjust war history called World War 2 never questioned. We destroyed two great civilizations and cultures and installed our values on these peacefull people who meant us no harm and were only forced into war with America by our war mongering Presidents foriegn poloicies of the time. The Japanese were tricked into attacking us, and FDR knew, for he wanted us in the war for the economic reasons he and his big bussiness freinds would profit on. -------------
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 8:21am
| ^^^^ partisan hogwash. |
Posted By: Barretm82
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 9:32am
And your thoughts on Afganistan? |
goodsmitty wrote:Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 9:56am
| ^^^^^^^ Interesting question... |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 11:44am
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And why is a historical referance to a simular event in out history, where only the names of the leader and enemies have changed considered ....partisan hogwash.....
Then as today there is a enemy, who today has in his way declared war on America and our way of life, yet there are many who care to ignore, and pretend that these people were provoked and we can through negotiation come to a world of peace. The previous administration voiced the same concerns and used the same intelligence to make their statements against Iraq and many terrorist organizations, and only now that a Republican administration actually decided to act on the issue is it considered wrong. And just remmember, maybe when offered President Clinton took custody of BinLaden, 9/11 would never happened. But we will never know, but the same threat to America that President Clinton, along with many on that side of the aisle voiced concern on well into 2002 on many a well documented statements now consider the war only a "Bush" lie. -------------
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Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 11:58am
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A democracy in the west as a stronghold? Kind of sounds like the Dominoe Effect on the spread of Communism. So our idea of spreading Democracy is better than the Soviet Union's idea of spreading communism. That's pretty biased. |
Posted By: B_Wet A-5
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 12:00pm
didint fell like reading the article but nice sig. ------------- I need smallers sigs. AVIATOR GANG 
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Posted By: evil_fingers
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 12:38pm
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Wow....this is better than watchin CNN, MSNBC and FOX combined! ------------- Do not steal....the government hates competition! 
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Posted By: Slimz.357
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 1:41pm
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whoa dude... like, does anyone know where I can get "Bush sucks" t-shirts? 'cause like I was watchin' this news station on the TV, and they said that like, Bush is bad cause he's killin' terorisists 'n stuff, so its gotta be true dude. like, Ive been watchin' them since they told me about how Bush, like, stole the election and is really Hilter's great-great-grandson an' stuff. But, like, it's totaly got to be true 'cause it was made by news people, right? ------------- "If you make it idiot proof, they'll make a better idiot." http://www.tippmann.com/players/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=125287&PN=1&TPN=1 - REQUIRED READING |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 1:49pm
| I don't think the NIC counts as "news people"... |
Posted By: Slimz.357
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 2:09pm
Apparently somone thinks it does.  ------------- "If you make it idiot proof, they'll make a better idiot." http://www.tippmann.com/players/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=125287&PN=1&TPN=1 - REQUIRED READING |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 2:12pm
| Maybe I'm missing your point... |
Posted By: Slimz.357
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 2:17pm
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I'm just tired of ignorant posts. There seems to be an epidemic of them recently. I will never cease to be amazed that people still beleive this crap. (gtg) ------------- "If you make it idiot proof, they'll make a better idiot." http://www.tippmann.com/players/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=125287&PN=1&TPN=1 - REQUIRED READING |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 2:19pm
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What's to believe, or not to believe? The NIC really did come out with a report describing Iraq as a training ground for terrorists. I don't think the existence of the report is in dispute, is it? Now, you can disagree with the NIC, but the NIC are not just journalists... They effectively work for the CIA. |
Posted By: Badsmitty
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 4:14pm
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It always has been. It's the best kept secret in the internet. |
Posted By: Badsmitty
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 4:16pm
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The Iraqi's bombed Pearl Harbor? |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 4:20pm
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No, but i bet saddam wouldnt have complained if he could. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors"> 
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Posted By: DrunkDriver
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 4:21pm
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Don't pay any attenchen to it. Untill the nukes start droping no information about that war is going to accurate. ------------- http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=260991706090alb8rs.jpg"> 
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Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 4:30pm
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As horrible as it sounds. Im waiting for bush to get everyone out of the terrorist places then saying SURPRISE and bombing the stuffing out of them. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: Barretm82
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 4:41pm
Well Smithy, since I see your online. bump. |
Posted By: goodsmitty
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 4:51pm
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WRONGO! How did Hitler get to power? AN ELECTION! It was already a democracy, and there were about 15 political parties running for control of Germany at the time. Fundamental difference here-Iraqis and all of those Arab countries do not grasp democracy, hence they are not going to fight for it. The Japanese were robots to the empire, so when the emporer said to give up, THEY DID! You are comparing apples and potatoes. The move to pull out of Iraq is building steam daily with even Republican lawmakers getting on board, because they are starting to figure out that what we are trying to do will never work. Bush is waiting for the day when Iraqis will pick up weapons and fight for themselves, or the boobs in the Iraqi Security forces (who are being slaughtered by all accounts) will be able to effectively fight the terrorists. It isn't going to happen. ------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Posted By: goodsmitty
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 4:57pm
Afghanistan was the right place to attack, and we should have done it right. Instead we held back sending troops where our enemy WAS to send them to where our enemy WASN'T. We sent only about 10,000 troops to Afgan'n and saved 135,000 for Iraq. We let Ossama loose when we could have caught him, and instead entrusted his capture to the northern alliance. This has always been madness to me. We should have done the job right in Afghanistan, just like we did in WWII. In WWII we didn't stop after taking Normandy and invade Mexico! We stayed focused on the enemy. Bush had too much baggage from his father concerning Iraq, and it clouded his judgement. ------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Posted By: Barretm82
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 5:10pm
Are you saying that applies to Afghanistan too? |
Posted By: Barretm82
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 5:12pm
Again, have to agree to disagree. Saddam certainly was your (U.S) enemy. I fail to see how you can overlook this. |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 6:11pm
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Smitty - I think the question on Afghanistan is whether it is not also now a big training camp for terrorists. Perhaps not on quite the scale as Iraq (perhaps in part because Iraq is drawing people away), but a training ground nevertheless? Presuming a yes answer for the moment, does that mean that we should not have gone into Afghanistan for fear of creating more terrorists? |
Posted By: fractus.scud
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 6:20pm
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There is no "move" to leave Iraq. Only between stupid left winged liberals who are still mad Kerry lost. Notice the new only gives bad news? That's because thats what people want to hear, they are more interested in hearing "10 US SOLDIERS KILLED BY MORTAR" Than "Iraqi water supply fixed" That's why more than 50% of news on TV is greatly exaggerated to the worse end of the spectrum. ------------- 
Benny go home! |
Posted By: Bango
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 7:07pm
Get your facts straight. We didn't leave it up to the Northern Alliance. Our Special Operations Forces went in to the Tora Bora Mountains and were aided by the the Northern Alliance. They did that because the Northern Alliance knew the mountainous terrain better then they seeing as they had been fighting the Taliban in those mountains for years. It wasn't left up to the N. Alliance, we were helped by them. I want to here more about your views of the Afghanistan War. ------------- http://imageshack.us"> 
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Posted By: Bango
Date Posted: 14 January 2005 at 10:18pm
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Bump I want a reply. ------------- http://imageshack.us">
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Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 15 January 2005 at 12:35am
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Well, I guess you're like the rest of the conservatives who act like everyone believes in the war. Bad news about soldiers dying should be the most reported, there is no reason to be there; therefore, soldiers dying is useless. |
Posted By: goodsmitty
Date Posted: 15 January 2005 at 2:41am
Okay I'll use your facts: A handful of SF troopers with linguists leading 15,000 Northern Alliance Soldiers do not equal 135,000 professional American soldiers in the task of guarding the routes out of Afgan'n into Pakistan. We left the task to 15,000 yo-yos so that we conserve our forces for Iraq. Now we don't have bin-Laden, and are in a war that has nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks. P.S. I am at work all this weekend so its hard for me to respond quickly. Bump ------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Posted By: Banshee11B
Date Posted: 23 January 2005 at 10:26am
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I have a question... Why is it bad that there are terrorists flocking to Iraq to fight us? We have a large group of Combat arms troops in a foreign country with people who want to see us dead traveling incredible distances so they can fight the big bad americans. Sweet. Welcome to the meat grinder boys! Do I think that the war is justified? yes and no. I'm really sorry that the intelligence that we had was wrong. I don't think we need to go into harms way because of an implied threat. But Saddam paraded that threat for the world to see. He specifically implied the use of WMD's would occur because he worked hard to make the world believe it would be to costly to mess with him. Well in the international game of political poker his bluff was called and had a straight flush rammed up his robe.
Anyway, we're in it now. This isn't a fight we need to win, this is a fight we HAVE to win. But democracy isn't easy. It took us 11 years to ratify the constitution of the United States with threats of marching the army to Washington to prevent the Federalists from setting up a noble-lead government. And that was the US, without century old hates and a tribal-like sense of political will. I think the biggest issue is why are we being reactive instead of proactive. We're using equipment for uses that they were not intended for. A Humvee was not meant to be an Infantry support vehicle. It's a Jeep replacement. What we need is getting the right tools for the right job (and the striker is not it IMHO). Having Armor officers in charge of an urban/guerrilla fight is about as bad of an idea as having Artillery officers in charge of the forces in Vietnam. The problem is we don't learn from our mistakes. Sure Iraq wasn't responsible for 9/11 but how long are we going to wait for someone else? At least right now they are coming to us, and it's not in our country. Or, should we back off and wait to react? I know North Korea would love that... ------------- -Chairborne Ranger- A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other human invention in history... ...with the possible exception of handguns and tequila. |
Posted By: E-98
Date Posted: 23 January 2005 at 10:57am
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^^you got an excellent point there... By the way goodsmitty... By the way... I love it how some 12 year old kid on an internet forum critiscizes the decisions of some ranking military officer/the president. To tell you the truth, you have no idea about how to command an army on a large scale, neither do I. So what right do you or I have to critiscize? -------------  http://www.angryflower.com/softwa.gif - http://www.angryflower.com/softwa.gif
Darur = sexxy |
Posted By: goodsmitty
Date Posted: 23 January 2005 at 11:10am
Actually, I was an army captain, and walking combat patrols in the former Yugoslavia when the 12 year old kid you are speaking of was two years old. That doesn't make me an expert, but I do know something about army structure and force strength. I can see the obvious when it is in front of my face, and interpret the signs of the times. It isn't rocket science. We have bitten off more than we can chew without a draft, and these forumers are the ones who are going to pay the price for Texas testosterone. ------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Posted By: goodsmitty
Date Posted: 23 January 2005 at 11:18am
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Good news, like: 60% unemployment in Iraq after two years. Concrete being imported from other countries for $1000 per slab under Halliburton contracts, when they could be made in Iraq for $100 and employ somebody. Most of Iraq still without the basic infrastructure such as water and electricity.
------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 23 January 2005 at 5:40pm
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My question is how and under who did you end up wandering the ex Yugoslavian landscape, and was it portrayed in the media here at home as it actually was over there, I suspect not. A bit of Arkansas legacy building I do believe.
And how can we make such statements with all respect, Captian, based on media representation of events in a war zone, when we both know that nothing we see or hear from the media can be totally representitive of the situation. It appears many of your Bush, Halliburtun comments are media representations of issues that we both must see as suspect based on our expierience with media in war zones. My boy was an Infantry Captian (Company Commander)with the 101st, was in the zone, and many of his letters, and photos and accounts, do not "jive" with what our media "experts" sell us each night on the nightly news. Only history will sort this out years after all the information and potential revalations are finally in the open. -------------
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Posted By: WGP guy
Date Posted: 23 January 2005 at 5:45pm
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Posted By: Banshee11B
Date Posted: 23 January 2005 at 5:52pm
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Ok, and part of me can't believe I'm being drawn into this, I have a few questions, especially since you seem unwilling to comment upon my last post...
1st: You stated "Most of Iraq still without the basic infrastructure such as water and electricity." That is a little vague... what does most mean? Or is this rhetoric? I am interested in how many people, population-wise, have no water or electricity that had it before. Because these problems could easily been there before. If you look at The United Nations Joint Logistics center report on electricity that the problem might be outdated facilities not us. When addressing this concern I would like to quote their report... "Baghdad South Power Station illustrates this problem well. This 1950's plant, with its obsolescent technology, continues to function, but often with only one or two of its six units. Elsewhere, it would have been closed down years ago. However, because of the dire need for electricity and the difficulty in building new power stations, the Iraqi authorities have no option but to keep the plant going. Units are started, work for a few days, and then break down again with boiler leaks caused by corroded pipes. The pipes are patched up with poor quality welding, and then the units restarted – until they break down again. Even when working, the units operate at well below their rated output and pollute the surrounding area as indicated. The Coalition Provisional Authority and Ministry had undertaken a massive programme to procure replacement parts for power stations, including new boiler tubes for Baghdad South. In most cases, it falls to Ministry engineers to fit these parts. They do not always have the requisite skills to do so. Moreover, the state of the power stations is such that practically everything needs fixing. The long-term solution to this problem is to build new, modern power stations. In the meantime, the existing plants need to be rehabilitated and maintained so that they continue to function as well as they can. It should be understood, however, that, unless the old units are fully rehabilitated, their reliability and output will always be low." Did we bring with us these power plants? How long does it take to build a power plant capable of handling a city the size of Baghdad? Let alone help an entire country? 2nd: "Concrete being imported from other countries for $1000 per slab under Halliburton contracts, when they could be made in Iraq for $100 and employ somebody." I would like to see where you got this from. Since when does a country import slabs of concrete? And I would like to emphasize the word slab for a moment... Who imports slabs? besides concrete, basically, is a mix of sand, stone, and cement with water. Cement is grinding limestone and clay. If you would take a look at the geology of Iraq you'll notice that this is one area that they are not lacking in. They have plants over there that make this. If you want the email of a contractor, who's been there, PM me and I will get you in touch. Lastly you said you led combat patrols in the former yugoslavia as an Army Captain. I would love to know your unit. Infantry? When was a patrol a "Company-level" operation? Isn't that a squad to platoon level operation? And if you are doing a Company size patrol I thought that was specifically to setup a Battalion size operation? I guess I am interested in what you mean by the word "combat" and why there would be a company commander leading a patrol. Were you part of a Coalition Support Team(CST)? because while they were doing patrols up to 2002 a CST usually consists of six people. Now you said that you were there 10 years ago. The SFOR's (Stabilisation Force)Project Harvest started in 1998 when SFOR began to collect and destroy unregistered weapons and ordnance in private hands. but that was 6 years ago... Now there was a report from Second Brigade of the Third Infantry Division of the U.S. Army, which contributes most of the American forces involved in Bosnia, Which reports a deterioration of soldiering skills. "Soldiers from this Brigade have difficulty maintaining even their basic skills with tank guns, because the soldiers’ ordinary peacekeeping duties do not provide outlets to practice traditional military skills" According to William Langewiesche, "when the American military maintains a peacekeeping force (and he sites the Kosovo and Bosnia missions). The missions of these peacekeepers differ from traditional military campaigns of the past in that the peacekeepers have no predetermined enemy to fight. Instead, the peacekeepers’ orders are to prevent fighting from occurring. Beyond that, the peacekeepers have no set goals; they have no objectives to take, cities to seize, or lines to breach". Is that the type of combat patrol you are referring? I know what patch, and I will let you know which of the 2 I am authorized I have sewn on, I wear on my right shoulder... I am interested in which one you do. ------------- -Chairborne Ranger- A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other human invention in history... ...with the possible exception of handguns and tequila. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 23 January 2005 at 6:11pm
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Just a warning, prepare for the personal attack tact from the usual suspects, since facts again interfered with the approved retoric.
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Posted By: goodsmitty
Date Posted: 23 January 2005 at 6:13pm
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Okay, this is the ONLY time I will defend the validity of my statements about my career, and will NOT be drawn off the course of this thread. I deployed with the 2nd Armor Division. I was company XO of HHC, 11th AVN REGT (V Corps) as a 2LT, CM. The original mission was IFOR, which began in 1996. There was no bridge over the sava river when I went, just a floating version. I led patrols through the area outside of Tuzla (google it, and tell me how lame it was). Did I get shot at, no. Were people shooting each other daily? yes. I have been personally in riots, minefields, and mobs. I drew my weapon with the intent to put holes in someone, but didn't. Do I wear a combat patch? no. Did I receive combat zone pay and combat zone tax exclusion? yes. Now if you want to keep pissing on my military record, have at it. The concrete slabs are the pre-fab walls around the "green zone" I will get the link for you in a little bit. ------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 23 January 2005 at 6:28pm
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I never questioned your service, only your objectivity as you were a serving officer in a combat zone while dealing with civilain news media, and hopefully questioning the medias representations of events and differing reports based on your actual expierience, and the medias representation of the same events. We both know that facts and events as reported are usually suspect in the media, and I do not see this event in Iraq/Afganistan to be any differant. My major concern is the effect of this media bias on the morale and the safety of the soldiers in harms way at the present time.
Today we see the Gulf of Tonkin Incident for what it was, most of the reporting on Desert Storm differs greatly from what I expierienced on review when I returned, so when history judges this event, and comes to its conclussion years from now, my hope is that there is a truth, not a biased media perception taught to those who once again will serve. -------------
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Posted By: Banshee11B
Date Posted: 23 January 2005 at 6:37pm
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I am not trying to "piss" on anyone's record. You said you were a Captain... I just wanted some clarification. If you took offense by having to validate your position, so be it. You might want to rethink your purpose of this thread. You were looking to either get validation for your beliefs or were interested in the view of others on this subject. You got my opinion and now believe that I am a part of "pissing" on your career. I am leaning toward the idea of validation since you have never once acknowledge a valid point that isn't partisan with your perceptions. I just want you to address a simple question. Is it better to be in a centralized location where you can deal with enemy forces, unless you don't think that there are any terrorists coming to fight, or is it better to play a reactive role and wait until they attack us again?
------------- -Chairborne Ranger- A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other human invention in history... ...with the possible exception of handguns and tequila. |
Posted By: goodsmitty
Date Posted: 23 January 2005 at 6:37pm
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My HEAT round was for banshee11-bullet stopper. He needed a history lesson. As far as the media, there wasn't a whole lot of coverage, except for when the three soldiers who were kidnapped in Kosovo (after I was back in Germany), and they reported it as "all's well", when they actually got the crap kicked out of them for 30 days before Rev. Jesse got them free. I absolutely agree with you that the media is biased one way or another, but I feel that you have to look at the mountain of bad news and see that things are not going so well in Iraq. There was no bad news on TV about Bosnia because it was basically successful. I do not know why the media did not cover what was bad, such as the riots in Gajevi and Brcko, but they didn't. I think Clinton was diddling Monica at the time. ------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Posted By: goodsmitty
Date Posted: 23 January 2005 at 6:41pm
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Why did we need to create another point in Iraq, if the intent was to draw terrorists to us, when we could have concentrated our forces in Afghanistan and do the job right? I will check back in a couple hours. "house 6" is not happy watching me pay more attention to you than her on my night off. She goes to bed soon..... ------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 23 January 2005 at 6:48pm
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If we could balance the "bad" news and "good" news reporting of events, then we could be objective. But the current bias and "if it bleeds it leads" media approach raises way too many questions, from those who have served, since we are familiar with the demon of media.
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Posted By: Banshee11B
Date Posted: 23 January 2005 at 7:28pm
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I am not saying that we needed to invade Iraq for any purpose. What I am saying is that we are there now. Instead of bemoaning the situation lets use it to our advantage for once, instead of bailing as soon as things get tough. There is a dedicated enemy out to get us wherever we roam. They found a GPS tracker from a SF soldier that was killed in Somalia in a hill in Afghanistan. Coincidence? They came to Somalia to kill americans. They came to Afghanistan for the same purpose. Now they are coming to Iraq. So what should we do? Leave Iraq? Validating their existence further by making them believe that if they attack we retreat, and will continue to do so? This is a precedence that WE have set. So how do we handle it? Cutting our losses? Deposing a leader and suddenly turning the reigns to them and saying "Well isn't this a suprise? You figure it out". You see how that went when the USSR was ousted out of Afghanistan... So instead if backing down why don't we use what we have. Put in place an effective, properly outfitted, and lethal fighting force. Take the fight to them. Show a powerful resolve to establish a mature and capable democratic Iraqi government that doesn't have to worry about the massive infrastructure problems. When we have actually have achieved stability and a set of definable objectives, that is the time to leave. I am not happy about being in Iraq. I was not happy about the invasion. I certainly did not vote for Bush this past election. I think that we need to deal with our problems at hand and not try to sweep them under the table like we usually do... Anytime you think that I need a history lesson, feel free. I love history, the study of it should prevent us from repeating the same mistakes. I wish it was more of a requirement for those who like to put us bullet-stopper's into nasty situation's and then make our sacrifices for naught when they pull us out before the mission is complete. ------------- -Chairborne Ranger- A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other human invention in history... ...with the possible exception of handguns and tequila. |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 23 January 2005 at 7:58pm
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Could I see some proof for that GPS thing please? ------------- 
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Posted By: Badsmitty
Date Posted: 23 January 2005 at 8:10pm
| Would you guys please make smaller posts so it's easier to attack you? Geez. These manifestos are bad for business. |
Posted By: Banshee11B
Date Posted: 23 January 2005 at 8:24pm
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This is the News story:
Somalia firefight clue found in Afghan cave Oliver Burkeman in New York and Rory McCarthy in Kabul Thursday March 21, 2002 American soldiers searching a cave in the Afghan mountains have discovered a satellite positioning device that apparently belonged to a US commando killed in the disastrous raid in Somalia in 1993. Defence officials said that the global positioning receiver, found in an ice-covered cave near Gardez in the east of the country, might confirm what they have suspected for years - that it was Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida terrorist network that masterminded the deaths of 18 American special forces troops in a firefight in the Somali capital of Mogadishu. "We've said all along that we suspected al-Qaida of being a worldwide network," Brigadier-General John Rosa, of the US Air Force, told reporters at a briefing yesterday. "This piece we currently think originated from Somalia will obviously tie - could obviously tie - al-Qaida to Somalia." The discovery came as US military and intelligence chiefs warned of an upsurge in guerrilla-style attacks from al-Qaida and Taliban forces in Afghanistan when the snows melt in a few weeks' time. As concern continued to grow among British backbench MPs of a possible "mission creep" in Afghanistan, the CIA director, George Tenet, warned that al-Qaida terrorists were poised to step up their activities following the spring thaw. He told the Senate armed services committee that the conflict was "entering into another phase here that actually is more difficult because you're probably looking at smaller units who intend to really operate against you in a classic insurgency format". The GPS device, which allows its user to determine their precise location anywhere on the earth's surface, came complete with its original carrying pouch and a label reading "G Gordon" - linking it to Master Sergeant Gary Gordon, who was 33 when he was killed in a firefight with militants. He was one of two soldiers to receive the prestigious Medal of Honour for his role in the bloody Somalia debacle, currently being retold on the cinema screen in the movie Black Hawk Down. ------------- -Chairborne Ranger- A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other human invention in history... ...with the possible exception of handguns and tequila. |
Posted By: goodsmitty
Date Posted: 23 January 2005 at 10:59pm
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The most intelligent pro-war point of view I have read in two years at Tippmann, seriously. However, I think that making this happen is going to involve about 500,000 troops which means draft, and then the bemoaning will really begin. I agree that it isn't time to pull out yet. However, when is the right time? Do we let the body count slowly creep up to 10,000, then 20,000, and before you know it, we are in a full-blown Vietnam? Someone (me), needs to keep a tight rein on the government with constant badgering over their shady deals and constant goatscrews. Finally, 11-bullet stopper is a term of endearment. I spent 150 of the best days of my life in Hohenfels with the 1ID. You know how it is, you can trash someone's politics or their momma all day, but questioning their military service is getting personal. P.S. you sound like "Joe Snuffy" ------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Posted By: goodsmitty
Date Posted: 23 January 2005 at 11:13pm
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O.S. I know I needle the crap out of you, but I really need to know: Why do you keep writing off everything that goes against your beliefs about Bush or the war? The coalition is falling apart. It has gotten so bad that the white house doesn't keep a list any longer. Everything that we went to fight for has proven baseless. There are no WMDs, links to al-qaeda, etc. Bush ignored all of the people who were the experts and told him not to go, and they were right. Whether the media is biased or not, it is a freaking meat grinder in Iraq. At what point do we cut our losses and pull out? Do you think that the elections next weekend are going to change anything? They will come and go, and the whitehouse will put another carrot in front of your nose. While you are chasing that carrot for 2-3 months, the soldiers continue to die, and the oil continues to flow. Surely you see these things for yourself. At what point do you change your politics? There is more to this than "the guy I voted won." Give these some thought before you respond. ------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 10:38am
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Fair question....
As we all know all opinions are usually based on personal expierience, or information we read, view or otherwise shape our personalities. First off lets look back, a long time ago in places far far away I personally took part in events where we as Americans promised to support peoples in their "fight" against oppression. Once as a young man I wandered the hills and vallies, taught a people how to defend themselves from guerillas that they did not support, shared their lives, thier meals and guarded them at night as they slept in peace. I saw the faces the trust, the small glimpse these people were allowed to see of America. I also saw how those at home saw what we were doing as wrong, how the Heroric Peoples Army were fighting the imperialists, listened to Hanoi radio and how all was lost at home, and we should give up. I also saw how the Heroric Peoples Army treated those who did not conform to their views of the world. At the same time I saw how the media destroyed our morale, brought a lowered standard of alertness, and how in my opinion many were lost by the medias support of those who wanted to oppress a people, and do me and those like me harm. And in April 1975, when we abandoned these people to those we knew were not as forgiving as we were, and the pleads and scenes of the Vietnamese people, we as a generation doubted those who questioned what we knew happened, as compared to what the media told them. Again later as a Special Forces Sergeant later in my career the nightmare returned, we supported a people shared thier lives, showed them a glimpse of America, and we again abandoned them as a political expiediant, and there are still nightmares of what happened to a little doe eyed girl who in the pouring rain sat with this big SF Sergeant and shared crackers and peanut butter. Her taste of America. And weeks later when we returned to the ville it was burned to the ground, by the peoples guerillas?, who knows but we buried the bodies, 6 rather large SF types tears in our eyes, and once again we packed up and eventually left, abandoning people who for a moment shared what we have here. My opinions and bias is seeing the nightmare again, we promised a people that we would let them see freedom, be it just or right in the larger political sense, who gives a rats arse, the people we have helped have in all truth have almost signed their death warrent in the hands of religious radicals. That is my morale cause. As many here know, I was, am and will allways be a soldier. No matter what cause or what President sends my brothers and sisters into harms way, I will support them and the powers that be, for I have seen what happens first hand to our soldiers, and those who put their trust in us for that moment in history. I am reliving a nightmare I personally expierienced, and the morale of those deployed and their families at home having their sacrifice and duty belittled daily on the 6 o'clock news, rarely a positive story, only doom and gloom death and destruction, how we are destined to fail, and once history again judges us on our support of freinds and those we promise "freedom", and to abandon a people who were oppressed, under the fear of death by thier leaders for doing what we here in america see as a right, again in the eyes of the world give question to the trust they can have in America. If we were allowed to persue this war without the anal exam of every decesion made, support what we are doing for the average Iraqi, and not have the media tell us that we are destined to fail as they do everything they can to destroy any chance of success, that is why I do what I do. History will judge this war, as Vietnam was judged, as Honduras/Nicaragua was someday historians will say this is what should have been done, and the only losers in these wars are not the Polititians, Americans who protested, nor the soldiers that fought there, it is the face of a mother in fear as we Americans tell the world we are abandoning her to something she fears more, and as she pleads for us to take her child to keep her from dieing in the oncoming genocide brought on by those who will for no other reason than pure glee, inflict hell on earth to those who made in their eyes a decesion to trust America, and will forever regret it. All this "bravo sierra" of war for oil, wmd's, and all the political crap to me means nothing, to me it is our soldiers who need support, and I will do all I can to support those who will support them, not try to make their sacrifice seem trivial and useless and for thier political aganda. And the day we see the panic of the average Iraqi if we decide to abandon them for a political expiediancy, and the pleads and the total fear in thier eyes, only then if those who care to actually try will they question what they di today. I along with many others cried in April 1975, for what ever we did for those the media saw as expendable was then seen as a failure. And the nightmare I live every so often of that ville we were forced to walk away from and leave to their own devices, and that little doe eyed girl that for a moment trusted me who I buried have formed my opinions on this war. War is never something that solves all the worlds problems, but for some unknown reasons those who see fit put soldiers and civilians into a situation where to go foward means uncertanty, to go back leads to events worse than moving foward. Ask any Vietnamese who ran, flew, pleaded and cried for us not to leave, go to Louisianna or Texas, go to the Vietnamese communities and ask them why they trusted us then, and why they are here now. Long ranting by a passion fueled by expierience and nightmares never to leave, and my faith will allways be to my brothers and sisters in uniform, as well as those who are putting thier trust in America, hoping to have what we have, and to live for once without fear and oppression. -------------
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Posted By: Banshee11B
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 10:45am
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OS,
You through both eloquence of word and action stated what I never could have. Amen Top ------------- -Chairborne Ranger- A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other human invention in history... ...with the possible exception of handguns and tequila. |
Posted By: Bango
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 5:56pm
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I'll go ahead and bump this so more people can read this. Hopefully it should end most of the arguments. Nicely put OS. ------------- http://imageshack.us">
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Posted By: goodsmitty
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 7:06pm
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How are the South Vietnamese enjoying thier freedom now, O.S? Was it worth 55,000 service members lives so that nothing was changed? What if we had pulled out years before, and saved 40,000 lives? The overwhelming majority of conservatives call sticking yellow ribbons on your trunk lid supporting troops while they are slaughtered in a meat grinder. I am taking the more direct approach, and calling for them to be brought home. If the Iraqis want freedom bad enough, they will win it. You cannot force democracy on someone. 5-10 years and 50,000 body bags from now, we will be pulling out of Iraq with our tail between our legs. And it will have been for a few million barrels of oil and nothing else. March 19th I will be in Washington D.C. protesting this debacle to get my brothers out of that mess. They were sent there on a fools errand that has nothing to do with protecting our country and have no obligation to die there. ------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Posted By: goodsmitty
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 7:38pm
Doubtful. I and 60% of America believe that leaving soldiers to die in Iraq for nothing is fundamentally wrong. Only facts will end my arguments, not ideology. ------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 8:05pm
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Each to our own, and fly the flag of choice, and seeing how you never truely expierienced any of this up close and personal, it is safe to have the views you do for you will never have the nightmares, see the faces, hear the screams, images of horror and pain of your brothers and those we choose to protect, then abandon. To stand by and watch as others suffer has never been the choice of America in my view, and opinion. As for the South Vietnamese, being better off, please go down to the Gulf Coast and ask them yourself, those who fled the communists, and those who survived the re-education camps, and the vengence of the Heroic Peoples Armies, and came here for the promise, that we as a nation reniged on in 1972 and again in 1975. And then go to Washington, stand and look upon the wall, and then ask the old man to your left or right, with the illfitting fatigue jacket covered in patches, tears in his eyes, memories flooding heart and mind, if it was worth it, you will be surprised at the answer, believe me.
It is easy as I said to judge history based on the media representation and historical revision. But those of us who gave a damn, who tried, who died, who still have the pain in our hearts and minds, will tell you a differant story. I am of the opinion that if we leave the Iraqis to their fate, we are guilty of an attrocity greater than many here care to invision. The wrathe of those willing and wanting to exact vengence on the innocent, whose only crime was to have a faith in America and a promise, while we here forget and pretend we do not see is too high a price for those of us who have seen it and feel the guilt all these years later. And if we were allowed to fight this war, without the media anal exam, to go on the offensive, take the war to the terrorist, not to sit by political correctness and media bias as targets, to complete the mission, maybe there will be no more body bags. The American fighting man can and has proven he can overcome if he is lead by leaders who understand, not political leaders with an agenda, and backsides to protect, or a media again with an agenda. Or do we wait till some other religious zealot backed by some other tyrant gives us reason to fill another 3000 or 10,000, or 100,000 body bags here in America. Isolationism in todays global inviorement and with todays weapons technology is suicidal. We will be seen as weak, unwilling and corrupt, for again we abandon what we started and left another group of people to suffer. I volunteered to go again, as an advisor, civilian contractor, whatever, to maybe complete a mission, forfilling a promise, that I was sent on in 1969. And if you as an ex military man can not understand that simple basic human trait, then I can not nor will I ever change your views till another inevitable act against America here in America proves me right. Quote..."I bet you'd feel differently about Iraq if you were there, holding your spleen" By the way Combat wounded in Vietnam, 3 times, and still limp more now with age, wounded in Honduras, Grenada, Desert Storm and I do not feel any differant about Iraq.....To give those oppressed even a moments peace, and maybe even a small glimpse and hope of what we here take for granted, to me and others like me will allways be worth it, and I will allways be proud and look back....."It twas the best of times, twas the worst of times" and if you do not understand as I said, I truely feel sorry for you. PS...Since when is fighting and defending those oppressed, and unable to fight for themselves, to let them share and have what we here in America take for granted..considered..."nothing", again many here in America can afford to be brave, up to 80% of Iraqis under fear of potential death are willing for the first time in thier lives do something only 60% of us here in America choose to do with no fear.....a basic human right to voice their true opinion and vote.................but to many here that is seen as "wrong" and for "nothing".....incredable......... -------------
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Posted By: Bango
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 8:33pm
60% believe the war was unjustified is what you're saying? Says who, the polls on CNN? You realize that anyone could have voted in those polls right? I can't think of how else you could have got an accurate percentage like that other than if the whole nation voted. Wait that happened already and I think it proved otherwise. ------------- http://imageshack.us">
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Posted By: Badsmitty
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 8:34pm
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Well I'm glad you don't have it your way O.S. You were on the losing team once and the idea of 58,000 more dead soldiers grinding away in Iraq may serve to vindicate your feelings about 1972, but it should serve as a lesson learned, not a reason to do it again. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 8:44pm
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WE DID NOT LOSE...OUR POLITITIANS DID NOT LET US WIN...THE ONLY LOSERS WERE THE SOUTH VIETNAMESE PEOPLE AND THOSE IN THE WORLD WHO HAD FAITH IN AMERICA....
Lets see you go to the wall and say to that vet he was on the "losing team", you have not got the guts YOU ARE PATHETIC...........Because you actually believe that this effort to help another people less fortuanate than yourself is "nothing", and you call me arrogant.... And you were in the United States Army....and you still do not understand who we are, and what we fight for......unbelievable 60% against the war and Bush won......must be the new math................ -------------
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Posted By: Badsmitty
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 8:52pm
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So, America won the Vietnam war? I don't think you're arrogant, I think you're dangerous. |
Posted By: goodsmitty
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 8:55pm
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Sorry, I posted something else before I read your post. I think you have combined the smittys into one left-wing pinko entity. We have like view, but different methods of pushing your buttons. The popularity of the war is <40% Seeing atrocities does not validate your hard-headed stubbornness that follows party lines in light of the mountain of facts and common sense that is crushing you into the soil of enlightenment. ------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 9:01pm
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OK, what do we as a nation say and do when the next cry for help from an oppressed people comes our way. Put it on the political scale for politcal agenda worth and cost, or the human scale of generosity and compassion for those less fortuanate.
Lets pull our military, since it is so evil out of the Tsunami Aid mission let the UN handle it, and why should we spend our money on the aid, it is not worth it since we need it more here for social programs.....it is all for "nothing" for they are not worth it and will hate us eventually anyway.....why should we help they can do it themsleves...... Too bad people like yourselves can not have it both ways. Again you asked for why I feel as I do, and it did not meet your standards, or confussed you, either one, so lets attack, ridicule, and slander the person for his views. Yes I saw things, yes I expierienced things, yes I have compassion for others, yes I see evil for what it is and can do, and I do not need Micheal Moore, or Oliver Stone to revise what I have seen. I feel for the Iraqi people, just as much as I feel for the soldiers there and families here, and you are too blind to see what is going to happen to the average Iraqi people if we leave, and that scares me..... And point of fact and opinion to clearify....WE DID NOT LOSE....WE WERE NOT ALLOWED TO WIN....I never said we won the war, another slant used to slander those of us who served, and in beyond your understanding PROUD of it. Maybe compassion for those who were not fortuanate enough to be born American is worth "nothing" to you, and that is your moral choice. -------------
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Posted By: Homer J
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 9:03pm
| This is getting a bit old. I think it's time to start killing some kittens. |
Posted By: Badsmitty
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 9:12pm
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Oh stop the martyrdom. I never set any standards for you, so stop the victim stance. By the way, we are pulling the military out of the tsunami relief effort. Bush is doing it, not me. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 9:16pm
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You did not answer the question...hypothetically..what do we do when the next genocide is identified, a tyrant oppresses his people, death camps, mass graves, and a cry for help is heard......the UN stands by and debates, thousands die daily, what would you have America do, and how would you justify it.....and what would you personally do about it.
Again hypothetically a dirty bomb goes off in Baltimore, 3000 dead, 15,000 contaminated by radiation, thousands dance in the streets in the Arab world, and intelligence points to Syrian parts in the bomb, and there is the potential of three more cells waiting to attack , what would you want America to do. Not easy making these decesions for whichever way you go one side or the other will not like the decesion, the protests start, but what do we do....... -------------
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 9:24pm
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Was asked a question, on why I feel the way I do, for what reasons and all I get is that I am a "martyr", so basing opinions on news and views of the media, both sides by the way, is far better than personal expierience and referance. I should get with the times and forget who I am and why I feel as I do, and go with the flow, take the easier road of compliance and blind obediance to an agenda for the times.
Sorry not my style, You two are who you are basing your opinions on your set of values, I base my opinions on my set of values formed as they were. No "martyrdom" just voicing who I am and why. -------------
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Posted By: Badsmitty
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 9:27pm
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Hypothetically, I'd not be fooled into believing in mushfaked evidence in the first place. Not go to Iraq. Have no need for covert operators that we now have who have no congressional oversight, just like Iran-Contra, the Yellow Fruit Company scandal, Project Phoenix, etc. etc. I'd also, hypothetically, learn what happens when nations alienate their allies. I suppose I'd also take a hypothetical closer look at this Coalition of the Willing that is basically a mercenary army that has dwindled from 40 some nations to 20. Hypothetically. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 9:33pm
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You two are a blast, Left wing pinkos....na you do not rate that high in the evolutionary scale LoL.......misguided, yes, youthfull idealists, yes....we all were at one time, only age, expierience and time will eventually bring you unfortuanatly to where I am today, as history as you remmember it, is altered, revised for the political agendas of the times.
Enjoy your youth and idealism, it fades fast as the next generations question your ideas, norms and who you are and why. -------------
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Posted By: Badsmitty
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 9:37pm
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I guess I'll stick with blind obedience and compliance. Want to go to the Anti-war rally with me and g'smitty in March in D.C.? |
Posted By: Badsmitty
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 9:40pm
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Nah, I'll stick with idealism. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 9:52pm
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By the way been to a few rallies, pro and anti war, seen Micheal Moore's movie, information is a glorious thing.
Speaking of history revised altered or taught consider the following.... Just as a test, seriously...now...What do you know of the Gulf of Tonkin Incident and LBJ's reaction to it? Were we wrong as Americans to believe what he told us on National TV? Should we have trusted and totally believed our media at that time, in that era, 1964-1966? And how does it relate to the current situation on intelliegence and world affairs? Everything is only what you are told and care to believe untill history makes its final determination decades after. By the way I go to DC every April, sit and talk to my best freind, whose name is etched in black granite, memories are hard................we were soldiers once, and young -------------
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Posted By: Bango
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 10:21pm
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It's pretty obvious that no matter what is said, no one is going to change anyone's mind. So be it. ------------- http://imageshack.us">
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Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 10:35pm
| Once again OS is taking the "been there, done that" attitude that holds no water. There is no sense in saying you're "older and wiser" when it's obvious you aren't. I also talk with my grandfather at that wall OS, but I guess I took a different view of the war. One of a useless act against the great communist army we thought was terrorizing the world. We are looking at another Vietnam, where many more grandsons will be talking to their grandfathers on a wall if we do not get out of this misguided war. |
Posted By: Bango
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 10:55pm
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But you realize that if we get out of this "misguided war" all the Iraqis that had faith in us would probably end up being murdered by the next tyrant to rule Iraq. Once you invade a country, whether it be for the wrong or right reasons, you cannot just walk away from it once you find out it was not justified. OS illustrated this perfectly when he explained what was to happen to the South Vietnamese after the U.S. left. It's too late to be complaining about whether or not the war was justified. We need to be worrying about other things and just accept that we can't change what happened in the beggining. So whether you supported the war or not, I think we can find a common goal in wanting to make sure the Iraqis do not have to be put through the things Saddam put them through, seeing as we are already in it. Might as well make something good out of something bad.
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 11:03pm
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No point, history will be the only judge, and only then will we maybe know who was right and what was the truth.
It is strange though, My generation brought up on our fathers stories of glory in WW2, John Wayne, and America allways right. Todays generations brought up on thier fathers anti-war activities, Micheal Moore, and allways doubt American intent. A lot changed in 40 years, and 40 years from now, will you recognize the America from your youth? We all see things from differant perspectives, and ideals formed by our expieriences, someday when the last two men crawl out of the rubble of our civilization, will they take up the stone and attack their neighbor for what he feels he needs and what is right, or will he put down the stone and hold out his hand in friendship and share what is left, knowing mans past, I am betting on the stone. -------------
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Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 11:09pm
| Your pro-war history would choose the stone. Mine; however, might choose peace. That is our difference. |
Posted By: goodsmitty
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 11:27pm
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I am seeing a trend here. Freeing Iraqis is good, and endorsed by your republican handlers. What about the 5 million people who died in Rwanda, O.S. and automaton clones? OH THAT'S RIGHT, THERE'S NO OIL THERE! And it wasn't endorsed by Limbaugh and Fox news. I am sure that your huminatarian heart breaks every day for all of the Africans slaughtered that we do nothing about. Maybe YOU have forgotten the oath a soldier takes, O.S. "To support and defend the constitution of the U.S. against all enemies, foreign and domestic." I guess that a nation with a bazillion tons of sand is a threat, because that's ALL THERE IS IN IRAQ. Every advisor who Bush ignored told him as much, Kurd-gassing in 1980 or not. In 2002 he had nothing and Bush ignored this. Soldiers swore to defend our turf, not liberate countries at a president's discretion, and oh, BTW, have the second largest oil reserve that he handed to his daddy's partners. You blame the politicians for losing Vietnam, and now Iraq. Did they get in the way of Bosnia or Desert Storm? Did the media de-rail those wars which were successful? NO, Because they made sense! Keep that "youth, youth" crap. The two smitty's you're condescending took the same oath you did and never skirked our duties either. Spin up the highschoolers with stories about buddies dying, looking into refugee faces, etc., but they have absolutely no relevance to the subject. The youth will have to pay for your nationalistic, patriotic speeches before they know it. Then they'll be saying "the geriatric, the geriatric, what the heck were you talking about?" ------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Posted By: goodsmitty
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 11:32pm
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Flame war is in progress ------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Posted By: Bango
Date Posted: 24 January 2005 at 11:43pm
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lol As for the 5 Million in Rowanda, well wouldn't that have been up to Clinton to intervene? Maybe not, I can't remember the year it happened. But the difference between Rowanda and Iraq would be that we went to Iraq for the wrong reasons but now we are making it right. If we suspected that Rowanda had WMDs only to find out later that they didn't, we still may have been able to prevent the genocide. What I'm trying to say is that the primary reason for going to Iraq was to find WMDs. If it were instead to eliminate the mass murders, than yes you would be right about overlooking Rowanda.
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Posted By: goodsmitty
Date Posted: 25 January 2005 at 7:07am
Please listen, and try to get these simple concepts down. We did not go into Rawanda because it is not our foreign policy to "go it alone" to stop genocides, or any war, for that matter. We intervened in Bosnia because it was on the European doorstep, and we were part of a vast coalition. That is why it worked. We intervened in Desert Storm, because it was outright aggression on the part of the Iraqis against Kuwait. It probably would have been a better time to go ahead and do what we are doing now, and may have worked then. It will not work now, because we are the agressors and have given the terrorists all of the fuel they need to build an army. We need an absolute exit plan for Iraq, and leave on that date. Right now we are led date to date with carrots like the election. In five years, we will still be there, getting slaughtered, mark my words, and some other illiterate president will be promising change right around the corner. Here's a thought, do you think we would still be so vehemently setting up a democracy in Iraq if they had run out of oil a year ago? ------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Posted By: Banshee11B
Date Posted: 25 January 2005 at 7:31am
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This is making me ill. It's quite obvious that there is plenty of passion for this topic on both sides. But to say that you are going to either save our honor the lives of our soldiers by pulling out of Iraq before the country is stabilized... What does that accomplish? It's like saying " I know! lets destabilize an area, sacrifice the lives of our soldiers, pull out, and see what happens!" This is not an experiment in political restabilization. This is real life.
Currently, if we pull out, the only people that will end up ruling are the ones with the guns. It is totally unreasonable to think that suddenly people who have been living generations in a brutally suppressed country are suddenly just going to stand up and fight a group of insurgents, that in their eyes, just defeated the US military. That is what the focus is going to be in the entire Mideast. This is now a war about future suppression. I believe we need to save lives. We will not do that in the long run if we cut and run. We will embolden an entire generation to keep bringing the war to us. This is something we have to do. It doesn't matter what ideals that brought us into this we need to deal with the issue at hand. The current leader of the insurgents is a Sunni muslim from Syria. Syria. The reason he's there is he knows what the ramifications are going to be for us and the advantages for his cause. If he loses, well it was to the last superpower in the world. He was brave, he gets honored. But if he wins and we retreat... They are so afraid of a democratic Iraq they are bombing Shiite Mosques now and stating that "if anyone particpates by voting or running for office they will be considered any enemy of God". 7400 men and women are running for the 250 parliamentary seats. This is terrifying for them. Iraq was run, under Saddam, primarily by the Sunni's. They are not looking forward to the Shiite's taking control. The lead cleric for the Shiite's just came out and stated that he is not going to endorse any canidate because "It is time for the PEOPLE of Iraq to have a choice". Do you know why they have that choice? The soldiers that go out every day and put themselves in harms way. I don't believe in the reason's we went to war. But I do believe in freedom. I wholeheartedly believe in protecting that right. Not just for us. You would be more than willing to take away the sacrifices of those trying to provide something that you are so accustomed to and deny that right to others because the way is hard. That is your right. I understand cherishing life and wanting to perserve it. I also believe that there are times when we need to make a hard line. This, I believe is one off those times. The ramifications of losing this fight will be far more disastrous than the sacrifices we're currently making. I have something I would be interested in resolving, if the concern for the deployed soldiers is so great. Don't clamor for withdrawl, clamor for a poll. Have every commander over there poll his troops and ask them if they would withdraw the entire mission, scrap everything and go home, or stay until the job is done. I wonder what the reply would be? I mean the soldiers are volunteers, there is no draft, what would they say? If every one would say "stay". Would you still go and protest? Why? De Oppresso Liber ------------- -Chairborne Ranger- A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other human invention in history... ...with the possible exception of handguns and tequila. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 25 January 2005 at 7:52am
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Let em go, let them live their dream of Peace, Love and Understanding. I have heard it all before, again and again, till the US for some misguided by ,honorable by others reason puts our troops in harms way.
The human animal is a predator and will allways desire that of his neighbor, be it physical and or phylosopical(sp) and will use whatever means required to ensure he gets what he wants at that moment. Not being a War Monger, just a student and sometimes participant of History, there will allways be war, misery, suffering, as long as the frailities of mans mind can see that his neighbor has what he wants and will not give it to hime freely. Same resaon there will allways be criminals. Notice those two never answered the moral question of, What happens to the Iraqi people after our pullout. It allmost appears as with many like them they do not care, only the American lives are valueable, and worth saving, in and the words of one of them it appears they mean "nothing" in the overall anti-war, anti-Bush theme and retoric. Nor did they ever address the initial comments of WMD's, and other Iraqi situation statements made by President Clinton, along with several major Democratic Polititians, way before Bush took office, what intelligence did they base their statements on and what reason to throw a few cruise missles their way. And why was their no media anal exam then, or by the anti-war crowd, if by the current accounts there were never any WMD's, then or now. I seroiusly doubt they will ever understand what trust the average person overseas puts in America in these situations, and the look of initially fear and then pure hatred as we leave them to their fate at the hands of those intent on vengence, tell them "Sorry, new course, or political agenda on our part, we may have been here for false pretenses we will let you know later how this is judged, disrupted your lives, put you in danger for your lives, but your on your own, Good Luck." The new American Way of building Trust and Understanding from those who may in the future need our help. So we accomplished the terrorist mission for them, they already hate us, now those we choose to help, then abandon, and finally forgot can turn thier hatred our way also. Matter of time, matter of time.........all I ask is when it does happen these two will see who and what brought it to America, as well as why. -------------
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Posted By: goodsmitty
Date Posted: 25 January 2005 at 11:11am
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I will answer both of your thoughts in the same post. Americans brought freedom to Americans. I am not heartless, and I hate what happens all around this world to people like the Iraqis, Rwandans, Congoese, etc., but a simple fact is that we cannot fix the world. We have a small military designed to protect our interests and defend our citizens. It is not designed to fight an extended campaign like Iraq, and mark my words, there will be a draft. Are there any arab democracies? I cannot think of any, but there may be. Islam is their government, and democracy is fundamentally against their beliefs. Their only hope is to install a moderate form of Islam as their government, and then we get out. I agree we cannot just pull out. But our leadership does not seem to be in any hurry to get out of there. I keep hearing about training the Iraqi security forces, but see little evidence of the plan working. If we are still having this "wait and see, we can't pull out and leave the Iraqis" conversation in one year or five years, are you still going to support this mess? O.S. I have not dodged any of your questions. Look back through the forum, they are all there. I don't know how to make it any easier to read for you. dulce et decorum est, pro patria mori ------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Posted By: Banshee11B
Date Posted: 25 January 2005 at 12:28pm
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Actually Turkey has... (Bernard Lewis) "Turkey's road to democracy has not been easy. On the contrary, progress has been difficult, along a road beset with obstacles and interrupted by many setbacks. Since the epoch-making general election of 1950, when a party that had enjoyed a monopoly of political power for decades allowed itself to lose a free election and submitted itself to the will of the people, there have been no less than three military "interventions," as the Turks call them. What is remarkable is not that these interventions took place--that is, after all, the norm in that region and political culture--but that after all three, the military withdrew to its barracks, and allowed, even facilitated, the resumption of the democratic process. Since then, Turkey has passed the test of democratic change not just once, but several times."
I wonder if this changes your thoughts? As for us winning democracy for ourselves your comparing apples to oranges. We had a large contigent of previous Military officer's leading us. What about France? I quote... "Few present-day Americans may realize that France played as great a role in the American Revolution as the did the Americans themselves--a fact of which many eighteenth-century contemporaries, such as King Louis XVI and Benjamin Franklin, were acutely aware. King Louis XVI later remarked upon it, as his government groaned under the cost of aiding the Americans during the American Revolution, when France supplied not only moral support to the Americans, but also the men, ships, and materiel that enabled the Comte de Grasse's French fleet to bottle up British commander Cornwallis in Yorktown, Virginia while Rochambeau's French forces, led by George Washington, circled in for the victory" We would have most likely lost the American revolution without France's help. We had French military officer's in almost every unit of decent size. And while you might think it is glorious to die for one's country. There has been many a foreign expatriot that died for ours in trying to establish the freedom that we enjoy. I am really hoping that you'll answer the last question in my previous post. To your question... yes. I will support it and do at a very personal level. I believe that if a job is worth doing it is worth doing right. ------------- -Chairborne Ranger- A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other human invention in history... ...with the possible exception of handguns and tequila. |
Posted By: Banshee11B
Date Posted: 25 January 2005 at 12:44pm
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I recommend to all who are reading this discussion to check out Natan Sharansky's interview about "Peace Will Only Come after Freedom and Democracy" in the Middle East Quarterly. It might provide introspection for someone who knows a little bit more about this subject than almost anyone else. ------------- -Chairborne Ranger- A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other human invention in history... ...with the possible exception of handguns and tequila. |
Posted By: duckncover21
Date Posted: 25 January 2005 at 1:57pm
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Well I think it is true that there will never be peace anywhere so all these d#$n politicians can cut the crap. But I mean if Saddam really was killing all of those people off over there then we should have done something. No we didnt find any weapon of mass destruction in Iraq but that dosent mean they're not there. Have ya'll forgotten that last year they found several planes buried under the sand?? Those missles could be anywhere. And like someone said earlier, if there arent any weapons over there then Saddam shouldnt have been running his mouth and expecting nobody to call his bluff!! He talked to much and it has gotten him thrown in prison for who knows what... but the point is he was a terrorist... yes he lead a country but he was a terrorist none the less... and we need to try and rid potintial powers of leaders like him. I feel sorry for the families that have lost people in the war but having THREE brothers in the Navy I know that even though they are in danger and might die that you still feel proud that they are over there protecting freedom for EVERYONE!!! How can we say that we are the greatest country ever and that we are the only remaining super power when we wont even lend a hand to people who are dying in opression?? Maybe a lot of people are dying but I know that I will follow all THREE of my brothers into the Navy in two years when I graduate to help protect the freedom of other people other than ourselves. And dont say something dumb like "If they wanted to be free then they wouldnt be fighting us" cuz its not the people who were being slaughtered that are fighting us. It's the Saddam loyalists. ------------- Sectional football games have the glory and despair of war, and when a Texas team takes the field against a foreign state, it's an army with banners!! Hook'em Horns!!! |
Posted By: LastShot0330
Date Posted: 25 January 2005 at 1:59pm
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Posted By: Slimz.357
Date Posted: 25 January 2005 at 2:49pm
Therein lies the difference. We at least want to try. You have said what you came to say, and so have we. Now it is time to go away quietly until the next oportunity to display your ignorance laden passion known as youth. Like OS said, enjoy it while it lasts. ------------- "If you make it idiot proof, they'll make a better idiot." http://www.tippmann.com/players/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=125287&PN=1&TPN=1 - REQUIRED READING |
Posted By: goodsmitty
Date Posted: 25 January 2005 at 2:55pm
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I concede, because you have the FACTS! I will, indeed give the war some time to see if it is possible that we can set up a democracy there. I believe with every fiber of my being that setting up democracy was not the Bush's agenda, but if Iraqi people can benefit from his mis-leadership, than that is certainly a worthy outcome. I will continue to keep the pressure on the whitehouse through political activism, however, to ensure that my brothers don't die in vain or are forgotten in the Halliburton money factory. I hope you see that I can be convinced to re-think my position with the proper information. Conservative, patriotic rhetoric does nothing for me, facts and sound arguments do. Are you sure you aren't Joe Snuffy? ------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 25 January 2005 at 4:36pm
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Another few hours sittin at the truck stop....
Ok we agree that an immediate pullout is not advisable, nor does it make sense. Now please explain to me the retoric of non-support for the effort. Do we not agree that it is a moral problem for the troops and thier families to see this constant anti-war, anti-Bush retoric on the nightly news. And I heard that Peter Jennings actually gave a positive light to a sswer/fresh water project, and how a lot of these are not covered by the news of late. So what is the answer, I believe it is what I have stated, we complete the mission, as we have it now, putting the past problems and differances aside. Once we have these Iraq , elections, and the inertia of the movement takes hold, there is a chance it will catch on and grow on its own, and the Iraqi people will begin to believe that they are able to take charge of their future, and as a united front confront the ex- Saddamilsts and terrorist element. On the formation of an Iraqi Self Defense Force, it appears there is the same problem here as we faced in Post War Germany/Japan. The ex-military of Iraq as well as Germany and Japan had the training and ability to maintain control, but we could not chance putting ex Nazi's in charge of or as the main policing force of post war Germany. My comparisons were historical lessons from my perspective,and since I am limited in referance material out here on the road, they may seem elementary, but I do beleive you understand the concept of Anti-Insurgent Warfare and how it applies here as well as what I expierienced. For whatever reason we are engaged, and we must finish what we started or the world will hold us to account if we abandon these people. And just as a rebuttal, Listening to the current DNC emailed talking points and retoric, agrivates just as much. Maybe you two can help, where can I find John Kerry's proposed plan for the Iraq situation. He stated he had one in the campaign, yet I can find no informative referance to the actual plan. And in the same vain, where can I find the current opposition parties Iraq plan. Maybe if we were able to see what the plan was we could make a informative decesion on which cause to support. -------------
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Posted By: goodsmitty
Date Posted: 25 January 2005 at 8:07pm
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What the right way to win the war is, I do not know. I only know that I will continue to pour the heat on the administration to ensure that they do not get too comfy with the daily body counts. It is too easy for them to become hardened to the figures, all the while they are getting rich. I have no idea about John Kerry. I was never really "for Kerry", just "against Bush". I am signing off of this thread. I need to spend time with my kids and get ready to start my work week tomorrow. House 5 if off the net ------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Posted By: Ejp414
Date Posted: 25 January 2005 at 9:03pm
I would bet that he's older than you. Apparently you haven't read any of his posts. And, no, we don't want to try. We are trying in Iraq, but is that really why? And why are we not "trying" in many other countries that need our aid? ------------- __________________ __________________ |
Posted By: Badsmitty
Date Posted: 26 January 2005 at 6:11am
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Posted By: Slimz.357
Date Posted: 26 January 2005 at 8:57am
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Smitty's Service record is one of the reasons I hold him in highest respect. But I do find his philosophy to be extrememly idealistic at times. My point was simply that because a job looks hard or even impossible, you can't write it off and not try. Pulling out of Iraq now would simply be quiting. I was criticizing his perspective, not his age or record; But you're right, I could have worded that a bit better. Irreguardless, I think this debate ended a few posts ago. ------------- "If you make it idiot proof, they'll make a better idiot." http://www.tippmann.com/players/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=125287&PN=1&TPN=1 - REQUIRED READING |
Posted By: Slimz.357
Date Posted: 26 January 2005 at 9:03am
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??? ------------- "If you make it idiot proof, they'll make a better idiot." http://www.tippmann.com/players/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=125287&PN=1&TPN=1 - REQUIRED READING |
Posted By: Slimz.357
Date Posted: 26 January 2005 at 9:04am
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I have no Idea why, but this thing re-posted each time I edited the post. WTF? ------------- "If you make it idiot proof, they'll make a better idiot." http://www.tippmann.com/players/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=125287&PN=1&TPN=1 - REQUIRED READING |