Having a scope or any aiming devices on a marker is jus fer looks.

funny enough, I just posted on the topic over at PBreview. Here's what I posted there- note, the discussion there was more aggressive and less polite than it is here, hence the beginning of the post.

90% of the people here have either never been introduced to formal debate, or have had their sense of reason surgically extracted from their brain. I didn't know that was an available procedure, but I can't think of an easier explanation. I'm going to try to kill this debate right here and now. My apologies for resurrecting a slightly dead thread, but I hate to see a good debate go to waste.

I'll present my arguement as logically as I can.

We'll start with a simple premise. That is;
1: There are a number of different kinds of paintball.

-This is clearly true. Among such are speedball, recball/woodsball, and scenario games.

Another premise:
2: Recball/woodsball and scenario share many carachteristics, including generally slower and more tactical play than speedball.

-Speedball is a very tacical game, but the tactical situation differs from woodsball. the fields are generally quite small, and seldom exceed the maximum range of a paintball- though not necessarily with any kind of effective shooting. I beleive 100 fet in length is close to standard. Woods/recball/scenarios, conversely, can take plce over many acres, with potentially hundreds of players.

I will agree, right now, that in speedball a scope or a red dot sight is impractical to the degree taht it can be considered useless.

I will discuss woods/rec/scenario games only, having granted the speedballers their little victory.

Another premise
3: In these games, play is often slower as a whole, because of the alrge play area, the ability to camouflage oneself by moving slowly, and because natural obstacles will often get in the way of shots that could be made easily in a clear field.

-I think that this can be accepted as true by everyone. There can be pitched firefights in woodsball, but it is generally the minority, rather than the majority of the elapsed time of the game. Much time will be spent quietly moving, or in small engagements between only a few players, where either a few shots result in an elimination, or one or the other aprty withdraws.

4: In a woodsball game, because of the dimensions of the playing field, you can often see 'in game' territory that is beyond your effective range of engagement. It may be so far away as to make it difficult or impossible to spot a eprson with the naked eye if they have used any measures of camouflage, or simply are fortuitous enough to blend in with the background.

-This is clearly true, if you've ever played in a big game.

5: Because of premise #4, an optical device which assists in spotting a eprson where it would be difficult to do so with the naked eye is beneficial.

6: If you can spot an opponent without them seeing you, or before they see you, you have an advantage over them.

#5 is obviously true, and logically means #6 has to be true. If you can see your opponent from a distance without him seeing you, you may be able to discern his numbers, formation, speed and direction of movement, and other information that will allow you to confront him in a time and palce of your choosing, rather than his, or rather than blundering into each other.

7: Given that; an optical device can enhace your ability to spot the enemy, and ; spotting the enemy without his knowing provides you witha  beneficial tactical situation, it then must be true that Having a magnifying optical device in a woodsball game may help you to place yourself in a tactically superior position

- A scope is a simple magnifying optical device, that can be mounted quickly and conveniently on your marker. Thus, a scope is clearly not useless in this context, and can be beneficial to a player adept at scouting or reconaissance.

Now, for aiming.

8: There exist markers and barrels that are capable of firing paintballs in flat, or accurately predictable trajectories

- Anyone who's ever shot a grouping of paintballs where they all hit clsoe to each other knows this. Given the right barrel and paint, a marker can fire its shots in an almost identical arc every time. Also, barrels such as the flatline will fire a ball in a flat trajectory for a considerable distance.

9: Given that the trajectory of a paintball can be predicted in a sufficiently accurate marker, aiming devices such as scopes or red dots can be calibrated such that their aiming point will rest over the point of impact of a paintball at any given distance (within range), with sufficient adjustment.

- This is true. You can sight in a scope so that at 100 feet, or whatever distance, your paint will always hit what you aim at.

10: Many people have sufficenet visual-spatial skills to see when a paintball falls short or flies high, and can extrapolate the necessary aiming adjustments needed to place a shot on target with an aiming device at a greater or lesser distance

- With experience, you will know that you have to aim your scope up, say, 6 inches to get an accurate shot with another 10 feet of disance, or aim down a foot when a target is 25 feet closer.

11: Given the right equipment and experience, a player with a properly calibrated aiming device can rpedictably place a paintball at any known distance accurately and quickly, as long as good sight picture and shooting habits are maintained

- This is simple marksmanship.

12: Because of the availability of cover, concealment, and camouflage, a player may often be able to wait until they have an optimal shot, in which case the potential exists to use the skills outlined in premises 10 and 11 to eliminate an opponent with just one or two shots, thus saving paint, and reducing the noise of multiple shots, and avoiding giving away his own position

- I know this sounds dangerously close to the evil S word, but nonetheless, a properly positioned player with the right equipment can make an elimination at a significant distance, say a hundred feet, where a player without any aiming devices may have to 'walk' their shots onto target, using up paint, potentially giving away their position, and possibly with the initial shots warning the target to get cover if his reflexes and position are sufficient.

THUS: A player with a scope or red dot sight, well calibrate, who are familiar with their marker can accurately place single or limited fire where others may have to 'walk' their shots, or aim down their barrel- which is inherently less precise, due to differences in eye relief, and both vertical and lateral positioning of the eyes relative to the barrel of the marker.

THUS: Combined with the previous optical benefits of, say, a scope, a player equipped with this may be able to fire shots more accurately through small gaps, or at greater distances, whereas players without this equipment may have to 'walk' their shots, trust to blind luck, or apply other 'trial and error' methods.

Scopes and sights are not the be all and end all by any means, but they have their purpose. If you want to conserve ammunition or concealment, or spot an enemy from a greater distance, they can be a big benefit, as long as they're properly sighted in.  For the record, I am a serving member in a military unit, and my service rifle uses a 3.4x optical sight, so I am somewhat biased towards their use- However, I also recognize that in close quarters battles or urban situations, they can be a hindrance- I've had to grit my teethand put up with the scope through exercises before where I would far rather have taken them off and used iron sights, so it goes both ways. Most importantly, though, I always try to pick my shots and conserve ammunition, which heavily influence my thinking.

Also, please don't try to use 'machinegunning' as a counter arguement- having been training on light and medium machine guns, I can tell you that we fire them in short (3-5) round bursts most of the time, and pick our shots.

If anyone cares to debate me on this, please refer to specifc ppremises, and be as logical in your arguements as I have. Thanks.

like he^^^said,it can be an advantage or a disadvantage.under the right conditions and with the right skills a scope can help somewhat,but they can get in the way.i think a scope would be best used as a spotting tool,not an aiming device.

man that has to be the longest post ive ever seen!!! but scopes and red dot scopes do have a very important place on the field of sceinerio and woods/rec ball.

Salute our military

LOL, you obviously never read my woodsball tactics post.

When I write a post like taht, It ry to be utterly definitive, so that if it's possible for anyone to shoot me down, it's ebcause they're actualyl right and I'm actually wrong, and not because I left something out and worded it badly. My ego can't take that kind f abuse.

borrow a scope, try it out, and if you think its useful for your style of play go out and buy one

I tried a scope for scouting after watching how effective my son and his friends were with it.  I didn't like it.  However, I did prefer it to carrying binoculars, which I also tried years before.  IMO the scope had three advantages over binoculars. 

1.  It was readily available, not in a pouch or dangling around my neck.

2.  I could use it while keeping my marker readily available.

3.  I preferred having the additional weight on my marker as to carrying it somewhere else.

Additionally, everyone of my markers has some type of sight mounted on it.  (Two red dots and two fiber optics.)  I can aim to maximum trajectory without using them, but I prefer to use them if the situation allows.  I have lots of fun playing, do fairly well, and so far the Paintball Police have not come and revoked my playing privileges.

(Although, as many times as I've had to go back and change spelling in my posts, the Spelling Police may be coming after me to revoke my writing privileges.)

Well not to be mean but i think a scope is useless. the olny thing it would be good for is seeing long distance. most times that is not even necessary but try it and if u are comfortable then go for it.

sneakysniper7:  You're not being mean, you're just giving your opinion (without being rude or inflammatory), which was the entire point of this thread. 

i have a red dot for my 98 and it does pretty well but in order to really use it u need the raised sight rail.

i was thinking about buying a scope but what kind r u sapost to get?

That notwithstanding, drexel, if you know that it will drop twelve inches, the red dot still gives you a reference point. Simply aim up twelve inches. 'Aiming off' is a very common sighting technique when it comes to firing weapons at moving targets, or with wind conditions, or alternatively when using a weapon where it isn't expedient to adjust the sights in action. A red dot is still a good investment if you're willing to put a few shots through it to get it sighted in.

Keep in mind that a sight generally gives youa ccuracy to within several inches. If you're firing at a person's torso, you've already got a lot of built in allowance for distance or inherent inaccuracy, as the target itself is a lot larger than that which a sight is capable of being accurate to within. Particularly since a person is a tall target, even at 75 feet where the ball will drop several feet over what you might be sighted in at, if you aim at head or shoulder height you'll still hit them somewhere in the torso or gut.

Alternatively, if you use a barrel such as the flatline, a sight suddenly becomes far more effective- since the trajectory will not change significantly within the range you can reasonably expect the paintball to break at, the sight can be set at a single setting, and be pretty accurate anywhere from zero to a hundred and fifty feet...

TEAM  Diablo    name:sry team policy...cant say

I have a bsa optic hunting scope when i play woodsball with my crew.  It is very accurate and i never miss a shot.  So all u haters go get a life.  Scopes are like a cheat....use thme to ur advantage..

                                                                             Sincerly,

                                                                                TEAM Diablo

I prefer red-dot sights myself, though a scope can definitely be useful. Eventually I'd like to get a better red-dot. Maybe one with a dot in the center, and a ring around, to assist with aiming off estimation.

I've noticed that a lot of people go about shooting a moving target the wrong way. They'll fire right at it or right before it, constantly adjusting after each and every shot. Better way that I find is to start jsut behind the target, and swing across them faster than they're moving. Open fire as soon as your sight is over the target, adn keep shooting as it gets farther and farther ahead of them. Any misses will be behind them, and they won't see, but because they're getting closer and closer behind, one will eventually hit. Assume that a shot is going to miss, and keep correcting a bit farther ahead on each shot, shooting rapidly, until one hits. Having a good visual aiming point is nice for this; the red dots are easily acquired.

There's definitely a knack to using sights in woodsball. I'll admit they're pretty much useless in speedball though- if you've got time to use them, you probably arne't playing aggressively enough...

Actually, bibeau, with a good barrel, you can get pretty good groupings. they should only veer off if your barrel is dirty or there's a problemw ith your marker.

Scopes are also useful because you can sue them as a monocular, aprticularly in the woods. That suspicious shadow? Take a closer look to see if it might be an enemy. I've talked to enough hardcore woodsballers to believe that scopes are useful. Hop over to the Ariakon forums and check out some of their discussions on scopes and sights... There are some players there with icnredible marker setups incorporating both.

If you play on large fields, they would be good for spotting. I personally don't like them and feel they are too slow. I can get close enough sighting down the barrel or with snapshots to quickly walk onto what I am aiming at with usually 3-4 balls in a woodsball game. In speedball, as previously mentioned, they are useless. I do not play in scenarios or big games, where they would be most usefull, so I see no point in owning one for paintball.

i was thinking about buying a scope but what kind r u sapost to get?

I think Wal-Mart carries a ~ $20 BSA that should be good for what you need.

DBibeau855 wrote: A scope will serve no purpose. If you are playing the way you should be. You wont be looking through it at all. If you are using it to magnify the image. Chances are you are too far away for a paintball to break. If you feel you really really really need one. Get a red dot scope. Besides, a scope is really pointless. Paintballs are not acurate. They veer off and are not areodynamicly sound. Its just silly to do get a scope...

It's called the comma man. Would really help make that sentence read better. So who are you to tell me that I am playing the wrong way if I am playing a different way than you? I apologize for my views not corresponding to your close minded ideas.

I use a scope on my 98, but then again I use my 98 almost exclusively in scenario games. If your paint is not nearly acurate enoguh to get a close grouping at a reasonable range, then I believe the problem is not with me and my scope, but with either your aim or that 25 dollar case of BE seconds/rejects paintballs you bought. Look at this logically. Can you consistantly hit a point aiming down the barrel? If yes, then can you put a crosshair on that spot? If yes, can you put a crosshair in the same place every time? If yes, then you can shoot with a scope just fine. If no, then you can't shoot well without one either. See what logic can solve?

On the topic of moving targets: I've found that if you know what bunker they are running to, then start off shooting at that bunker then sweep backwards towards the player. That way he runs through your line of fire and doesn't have the possibility of outrunning it. This works well if your rate of fire is high. If it isn't, just practice leading moving targets more I guess :/.