Hello comrads.

Every time i see a paintball sniper argument there are always people saying their are no such thing as snipers in paintball. Why. This is the question that is never answered. What characteristics of paintball make it impossible to become "a sniper"?

And if their is no such thing as sniping, then why are accesories such as longer range barrels, scopes, and ghillie suits used in paintball?

It all depends on what definition of the "sniper" you take, if you mean actually real life sniping traits, shooting from far far far far away wit site/scope n all, being able to shoot dead on accurate usually gettting the guy wit one shot, then there are no such thing as a paintball sniper. However, there can be a "paintball sniper", one who can hide himself very well so no one will kno where he is when he shoots and that he shoots smart, not revealing himself unessersarly, being accurate, quiet, maybe having good range barrel/gun *flatline* but mostly just being very smart on when and where he shoots.

not necesarily^

Wel i think the average paintball idiot could understand that your not going to be able to hit a target hundreds of meters away with a paintball gun, and thats not why people use or should use scopes on their markers. I think scopes should be used more for spoting enemies rather than using it to magnify a target to shoot at.

I agree that real "sniping" is a combonation on good woods ball tactics, but i do see a difference between a reguler player and a "sniper" In woods ball, their are sqads of people who move together and atempt to ambush the enemy or meet together in a head-to-head battle. A "sniper" moves and works alone, and doesn't move around as much as the other players, and more so uses concealment than anything else.

Oh and also thank you all for mature answers.

Try to move away from woodsball and into scenario and big game types.

I don't know about you guys, but around here at fields like Picasso Lake, On Target, etc. woodsball games are basically a 100 yard by 75 yard field or so, with two teams of about 10-20 people. At the whistle, everybody runs to grab more land and the good bunkers. After 15 minutes of throwing paint and moving around, a team wins after they get the flag or eliminate the other team. It's hard to be a sniper in this envirnoment, you can usually see where the other team starts, and the side boundaries.

But scenarios and big games are a whole different story. You're playing with hundreds of people on several hundred acres, with objectives, missions, etc, and it will last for hours. This is where the sniper plays best. Before a team makes a push towards the enemy base or to capture objectives or rescue teammates behind the lines, it is smart to send out scouts and diversionary attacks. They also work well to disrupt and piss off the opposing team during general movement. Since the playing field is so huge, one single guy can sneak around the bulk of an opponent, and with a radio, can call teammates up and tell them what's going on where they can't see. And the whole one shot one kill doesn't come into play. Move around and lay a lot of paint to distract them and make it seem like more than one guy. This will draw many opponents (maybe up to 20) from the front lines, and their just chasing one guy.

Don't take the word sniper so literally, it's military and real-world meaning need not apply, just like saying pointman and interdictory rifleman. A sniper is a scenario or big game position which is effective at roles including, but not limited to: harassing, scouting, diversion, and ambush set-up.

DrexelSkaPB wrote: Try to move away from woodsball and into scenario and big game types. I don't know about you guys, but around here at fields like Picasso Lake, On Target, etc. woodsball games are basically a 100 yard by 75 yard field or so, with two teams of about 10-20 people. At the whistle, everybody runs to grab more land and the good bunkers. After 15 minutes of throwing paint and moving around, a team wins after they get the flag or eliminate the other team. It's hard to be a sniper in this envirnoment, you can usually see where the other team starts, and the side boundaries. But scenarios and big games are a whole different story. You're playing with hundreds of people on several hundred acres, with objectives, missions, etc, and it will last for hours. This is where the sniper plays best. Before a team makes a push towards the enemy base or to capture objectives or rescue teammates behind the lines, it is smart to send out scouts and diversionary attacks. They also work well to disrupt and piss off the opposing team during general movement. Since the playing field is so huge, one single guy can sneak around the bulk of an opponent, and with a radio, can call teammates up and tell them what's going on where they can't see. And the whole one shot one kill doesn't come into play. Move around and lay a lot of paint to distract them and make it seem like more than one guy. This will draw many opponents (maybe up to 20) from the front lines, and their just chasing one guy. Don't take the word sniper so literally, it's military and real-world meaning need not apply, just like saying pointman and interdictory rifleman. A sniper is a scenario or big game position which is effective at roles including, but not limited to: harassing, scouting, diversion, and ambush set-up.

this is exactly what i mean, thank you. And yes i realize that in certain enviornments it is impossible to be a sniper.

what would you sabastian, call someone who is in an elevated position over looking the main firefight in a woods ball game and is picking off enemy players that are below him? dont take this as a nasty thing twords you i am just asking for your opinion cause u seem to no what your talking about.

and why in gods name do u have a swasticka as your icon?

What if it is a very large scenario game or some crap and the player is sent on a special mission with one other player? Would you call them assasins or spys? Or im guesing u would call them a pointman?

oh and also would you say recon scouts exist in paintball?

and also dude sniper rifles dont have to be bolt action, first semi auto sniper rifle was invented in ww2.  

Sebastian, you, along with everyone else who argues the paintball sniper, are way to literal when interprating the word sniper. You have to move away from the meaning that you are accustomed to hearing in military and police terms. A paintball sniper is a general term which describes a certain tactic.

Just remember, you have to throw away the dictionary meaning or military meaning of sniper and remember it's a broad term used loosely to describe players who scout, harass, disrupt, etc. in their opponents territory, during SCENARIO GAMES, not backyard woodsball. If you've ever played a scenario or big game, than you've seen this tactic, and it's is very effective.

I was at EMR in October for Castle Conquest, and what the defenders did occasionally was send a guy out of the castle and just look around, hide, start ripping some paint at us, and then run. We would either run after him and get stuck in an ambush or chase him down and find ourselves farther from the objective - either way, the sniper won. You can't just ignore him either, because he was taking guys out a lot faster than we could take him out.

And that comment about 12 year olds - grow up. I've played with kids young enough to practically be my son and they've got balls; running up to the front, being that wedge in the middle of the field, they can use a sappling for a bunker. They were keeping up with the experienced and seasoned players like me and my buddies, because we teach them how to play. By shunning and whining about the younger generation YOUR doing a diservice to the growth of our sport.

DrexelSkaPB wrote: You have to move away from the meaning that you are accustomed to hearing in military and police terms. A paintball sniper is a general term which describes a certain tactic.

Says who exactly? You can't just make up definitions to suit your needs.
That's the crux of the whole arguement. I don't think anyone is questioning the tactics...just that, as you yourself concede, its tough to justify any traditional use of the term sniper in paintball.

I agree w/CougarBattalion & A5 Command, The term is very loosely used in marketing sales & newbie terminology.Hey if you want to lay or sit and wait for that one (maybe) perfect shot go ahead..Personally I would rather run and gun and be active in the game.For those afraid of getting shot,give golf a try....

MM

Sniper Knowledge

Understanding the tasks of a Sniper, Understanding the weapon system, understanding wind & range calculations, etc.. (Too often instructors concentrate on History instead of knowledge of the job.)

Map reading and Air photography

A Sniper must be able to navigate, pin-point features from a Map, and read, grid and scale Air photographs. This allows him to plan his task and navigate to and from his area of operations.

Concealment

Snipers are taught to conceal themselves in a short period of time with the ability to engage an enemy without detection. This is in case they encounter an enemy on route to their area of operations.

Observation

Snipers are taught how to scan, observe, and log what they see. This is so that they can detect minor details that may aid them in spotting their quarry, and develops their ability to collate information for their Bn.

Stalking

Snipers are instructed in the art of stalking, route selection, movement, and construction of a fire position. This allows a Sniper to plan his route to a fire position, move to it undetected, eliminate his quarry, and then extract unseen.

Judging Distance

Snipers are instructed in various methods and aids to judging distance. This allows them to correctly judge distance to their target prior to taking the shot.

Shooting

Snipers are taught and then practice various conventional and unconventional fire positions. This yields a strong probability of a first round kill.

"Field skills are just as important as being able to shoot well," he said. "The field skills of each platoon member must be far and above the abilities and knowledge of the average infantryman. Each must to be able to call in supporting arms and close air support. Because we use a variety of communications equipment, we have to be as good as any radio operator in the Marine Corps.

"Once we gather the intelligence, we have to get it back to the unit we are supporting," Douglas said. "It could be the security of a landing zone, whether the ground composition or obstacles will prohibit a landing, enemy aircraft in an area, or a surf or beach report to assist amphibious landings.

"Regardless of the situation, if we can't get that information back, then we're no good out there. All we'll do is give away the battalion's intent."

While performing in that role, the Scout/Sniper must also possess a level of discipline and judgment that allows him to endure the incredibly patient and calculated movements required to probe, unseen and unheard, deep into hostile area."

If you show me a bolt action marker that will take someone out at a thousand meters consistently, and are dead nuts accurate every time, then I'll admit there can be snipers.

A sniper rifle doesnt have to be bolt action, ever heard of the Barrett M82A1 "Light Fifty",semi auto sniper rifle,make a marker like that,same length barrel(like 30-ish inches i believe),and you could shoot dead-on at 150 feet

Excellently put SebastianBlack. I have learned alot from reading your posts on the board,thanks for the knowledge!

cheers,mm

You got that right,so would I.. It must be a Flatliner..Not bashing Flatlines mind you ,  just think there are many better alternatives for me personally. Hey long shots are nice, but up close and personal  is  a rush. Seeing somebody's eyes grow white w/ suprize when you pop and let'em fly..Oh yeah that's nice.

mm

SebastianBlack wrote: People really need to plan this sniper debate a bit better. Its more interesting when you cant tear apart the arguement this quickly.

I enjoy a good debate, so.....

There are no snipers in paintball.  Additionally, there are no scouts, soldiers, rangers (yes, I've seen woodsball players refer to themselves that way), or PFCs in paintball.  Paintball is a recreational game and all of the aforementioned terms refer to vocations which are deadly serious.

That said, if someone wants to refer to themselves as a paintball sniper they can do so if they want, it's a free country.  Whether or not I or anyone else will take them seriously is a different matter.  Based on my experience, I have to agree with the anti-sniper crowd that the majority of the folks who refer to themselves as snipers are trying to be special by referring to themselves with a "cool" name.  But, that does not preclude the existance of paintball snipers.  I believe that they are just really rare.  I also think that anyone skilled enough to meet all of the criteria I will list below, probably doesn't run around bragging about being a "sniper" on the paintball field.

Both Old Soldier and Sr-Crewchief have offered up the criteria for snipers in paintball and I generally agree with their arguments.  It has become the litmus test I use to determine if someone is actually a paintball sniper or not.  I just keep in mind that paintball is a game and is played with equipment that has certain technological limitations when compared to firearms. 

Paintball Sniper Criteria:

1.  Superior marksmenship:  Everyone always agrees that as unfair as it is, some people are just much better shots than others.

2.  Experise in camoflage/concealment:  Again, this is a point that is normally not argued by those who don't believe in paintball snipers; some folks are just more effective with these skills (especially ex-military).

3.  Ability to approach a target undetected:  It is generally conceded by the anti-sniper crowd that there are folks who meet this criteria.  In my experience, seasoned hunters have an edge over most other people.  I have also noted that a lot of wannabe "snipers" who brag about their stalking skills tend to earn their impressive elimination rates against newer/younger players.

4.  Ability to engage targets from beyond the effective range of return fire:  This is one of the major points of contention between the pro and con crowds.  I have seen this effect obtained four different ways, although only the first one meets the strictest application of this rule.

-- Using the trajectory provided by a flatline barrel to fire through/under obstacles that make return fire impossible.  (Note:  I do not consider the flatline a sniper barrel for the longer ranges because of the inherent inaccuracy of paintballs.  It is, hovever, very handy for long range suppressive fire.)

-- Lobbing at extreme ranges through a small opening in overhead cover that interferes with return fire. 

-- Using an excessively long barrel that can be pushed through foliage allowing fire to be placed without exposure to return fire.

-- Utilizing a natural firing lane to take a single quick elimination, then step back away from return fire along the same lane.

5.  Engaging targets without compromising location:

-- There are very quiet barrels available (such as the Whisper and the End Game) that make it difficult to locate an individual firing until after a few shots. 

-- If the would be paintball sniper is smart and careful he/she could also utilize a louder barrel if his target was distracted or there were others firing nearby or background noise that could be used for masking shots.

6.  Ability to depart without being identified/engaged:  This is the hardest criteria to meet due to the range limitations of paintball markers.  The paintball sniper is going to be fairly close to any surviving opponents.  Their reaction could be anything from not even realizing they lost a team member (or members) to establishing a base of fire and dispatching a sweep element to clear the area.  A true paintball sniper should not just set up an ambush anywhere.  (If they are merely hiding and waiting for a group to wander by so they can either jump out and spray them, or fire a few quick shots and run away, they are not paintball snipers.)  There are several ways to avoid indentification/engagement, all of which are highly terrain dependent.

-- The use of firing lanes in thick growth allows for complete concealment, then a quick strike for a single elimination, followed by a hasty departure covered by the intervening foliage.

-- Setting up near terrain features that allow for a concealed departure such as ditches or creekbeds.

-- Utilizing the terrain to prevent/delay the possibility of engagement.  (i.e. setting up across a creek or fence from the target area to delay sweeping teams searching for the paintball sniper.)

I have never seen any single individual (myself included) utilize all of the skills necessary to meet the criteria above.  I have, however, seen all of the above used by various different people.  With this in mind, I have to acknowledge the possibility of the existence of paintball snipers with the caveat that they are just really, really rare.  I also have to admit that a skillful player could meet all of the above criteria to be a paintball sniper and still be a detriment to his/her team.  If the paintball sniper is going to go sniping they should be concentrating on activities that help their team.  (Controlling key terrain to hinder the oppositions movement, eliminating experienced members of the other team, set up as a last ditch flag defense, etc.)  The paintball sniper who hunts and eliminates 4 noobs for his personal aggrandizement while his team's flag station is over run is not going to be welcome back at the break area no matter how "cool" his stalking technique was.

SebastianBlack wrote: ^^^I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are people that compare to the real thing quite well, however, those people are never ones to call themselves snipers. I think if old soldier saw his name up there he'd have a round or two of things to say

Actually, I think you phrased the point I was trying to make better than I did.  It means nothing if someone considers themselves to be a paintball sniper, what matters is what the people who play with/against them think of their playing style.  As for Old Soldier having a "round or two of things to say", I'm not sure why he would since I agree with pretty much everthing he says on this topic.  The only real difference is in strictness of application.  (Doesn't exist compared to could exist but extremely rare.)

I just prefer to keep an open mind and apply the definition in the context of the equipment limitations the same way the historical definition of the military sniper has changed as technology advances.  Consider this, modern snipers make shots at amazing ranges such as approximately 1.5 miles in the link below.

  http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/KillingShot_2430Metres.asp - http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/KillingShot_2430Metres .asp

This is over 4 times the effective range of the M4.  But during the revolutionary war the British were appalled that the colonial snipers could pick off selected officers in excess of 200 yards with a single aimed shot from their Kentucky long rifles.  (The British were not only appalled by the range, they also considered it unsporting that the colonials would "murder innocent officers who were only trying to manuever their troops" according to the History Channel.)  In comparison the average musket of the day was considered to have an effective range of approximately 100 yards.  When used in volley the effective range was considered to be extended out to 200-250 yards, but that was with 100 rounds fired simultaneously.  (Accuracy through volume; very similar to some paintball players I know.)

Edited Note:  Someone mentioned that the .50 cal. couldn't be used as a sniper weapon because of the Geneva convention.  As noted in the linked article above, it is currently in use in that manner in Afghanistan.  Furthermore, use of it as a sniper round is also referred to in "Marine Sniper" the autobiography of Carlos Hathcock.

A-5 Command wrote: Hello comrads. Every time i see a paintball sniper argument there are always people saying their are no such thing as snipers in paintball. Why. This is the question that is never answered. What characteristics of paintball make it impossible to become "a sniper"? And if their is no such thing as sniping, then why are accesories such as longer range barrels, scopes, and ghillie suits used in paintball?

Because I know and knew real snipers.  I know some when I was active duty infantry, I know a couple now that I'm a National Guard combat engineer, and I knew a former Marine that was a sniper instructor at Quantico.  Even with the flatline, no marker gives capabilities that anyone else doesn't have.  People get sniping mixed up with camping, or with basic stealth that every recruit private gets drilled in.  Most of these so called snipers (an insult to the men, and now women if you include law enforcement, who have sweated and worked hard, and suffered to EARN that title) are just wannabes with the cool looking stuff, or at least cool in their minds, and would be outclassed by a stinking cook when it came to real tactics.  Those long barrels do absolutely nothing to increase range or accuracy.  Only the Flatlines increase the range at all. 

LastShot0330 wrote: Well, the only "sniper" i've ever came in contact with is one of my best friends the reason he's a "sniper" is because he weighs 275 and he's 16 (big ole boy) and basically what he does is find a tree thats big enough to support him then he begins the ardous task of climbing it about half way up and just waits there for someone to walk by...then he shoots at them. Pretty simple huh?

Ambushing, not sniping.  Violates criteria 6; the ability to egress the area after eliminating the target without being detected/engaged.  Also, I've learned from watching others that it is very bad to be the guy in the tree once you're spotted.

Kevin Z wrote: Curlyman666 wrote: If you show me a bolt action marker that will take someone out at a thousand meters consistently, and are dead nuts accurate every time, then I'll admit there can be snipers. A sniper rifle doesnt have to be bolt action, ever heard of the Barrett M82A1 "Light Fifty",semi auto sniper rifle,make a marker like that,same length barrel(like 30-ish inches i believe),and you could shoot dead-on at 150 feet First, Snipers don't routinely make 1000 yard shots. They train to sneak in, make a 300 yard shot and sneak out. Second the Marines use a Remington 720, in Winchester 308 for a sniper rifle. Not a 50 cal. It is against the Geneva convention to shot a person with a 50 cal. The Barrett is not a sniper rifle. It is a crew served weapon used to detonate explosives cashes, kill aircraft and vehicles.

You just hit a few pet peeves buddy.  First the range tha a sniper attempts to reach is dictated by terrain, not some arbitrary number.  Second, the USMC and the Army both use the Remington 700 as a base for their sniper rifles, but they are cinfigured differently. There is also the SPR or special purpose rifle.  A Stoner SR-25 with the Rail Interface System in the same caliber used by some units.

Have you watched CNN at all?  The Barret is being used by a lot of people.  Snipers and non for it's long range and stopping power.  It's also an engineer tool for attempting to detonate non-stable explosives from a distance. 

The round used is the 7.62 which is essentially the same as the Win. .308, but the chamber is slightly different.  The same as the 5.56 and .223Rem are just a little different, and the HK SOCOM pistol is chambered with SAAMI specs, and the MK23 Mod pistol made for the military is made to a military spec.

It is certainly NOT against the Geneva Conventions to shoot a person with a .50.  The Geneva Conventions didn't deal with ammunition.  They mostly dealt with the treatment of prisoners of war.  Mostly it was the Hague Conventions that dealt with munitions, and they were mostly to prohibit weapons that caused unnessary suffereing, or wounding only.  The ONLY reason that the use of the M2 .50 cal BMG, was that during the war in Vietnam there was a shortage of .50 ammunition.  It didn't make much sense to waste a hundred rounds that were over a buck each when we had 5.56 or even 7.62 that were less than a quarter each, and were in plentiful supply.  This was something that I was very glad that the brigade JAG officer explained to everyone when we were getting our briefings before deploying to the Middle East.  I'd been having this argument for years with people.  It's just a military urban legend.

Wow, good thread guys keep it going...

mm

there are snipers in paintball.  the guys that keep denying that there are snipers have probably been sniped before and got pissed... lol

snipers rule get over it

peace out brothers

ok i am ver very happy just to let all u no that this hasent become a flam argument or drift off topic. so thank all of you for that.

but anyway just a little rephrase to the question, would you think it would be possible to snipe in paintball not become a sniper, snipe.

an example would be if your main group of (lets say 30 or so) kept advancing on a small number of conceled stationed enemy, wen just you and one or 2 more people move to a more elevated position a little more off to the left or something from the main battle and start to pick off the enemy players from up high

would any of you consider this sniping? or as a matter of fact would you say that in some situations it would be possible to snipe enemies from a possible elevated position agains an advancement or something? (bell tower) (ending of saving private ryan)

Again guys thanks a lot

Mehs wrote: A-5 Command wrote: Hello comrads. Every time i see a paintball sniper argument there are always people saying their are no such thing as snipers in paintball. Why. This is the question that is never answered. What characteristics of paintball make it impossible to become "a sniper"? And if their is no such thing as sniping, then why are accesories such as longer range barrels, scopes, and ghillie suits used in paintball? There are because people are dumb enough to buy them.  Also, using a flatline doesn't make you a sniper, just like using a rifle when shooting things don't make you a sniper.  Painball guns aren't accurate enough to even be as accurate as snipers

you still didn't give a good reason why there aren't snipers.

why are you so mad about there being snipers, have you got shot by one before?

choopie911 wrote: HITMAN 4 HIRE wrote: there are snipers in paintball. the guys that keep denying that there are snipers have probably been sniped before and got pissed... lol snipers rule get over it peace out brothers Hahahahaha, awesome. I must say I've never been shot by a "sniper." I almost always know where everyone is, it's just common sense, keep track of the other team. It's not denial, it's belief because of facts. Did you see the video on web dog radio?

no can you find it and give me the adress?

thanks choopie, pimpin fo life is yo specialtie.

peace out brother

HITMAN 4 HIRE wrote: those are military guidelines on perfecting the art and tactics of sniping, but it still doesn't prove there aren't snipers in paintball.  the dictionary give the bottom line of what a sniper is.  every time you guys "try" to find evidence you end up taking guidelines from a military handbook.  you guys have like total tunnel vision. lol

Excuse me, but didn't we cover " just making up definitions" back on page 2?

Betterdays wrote: DrexelSkaPB wrote: You have to move away from the meaning that you are accustomed to hearing in military and police terms. A paintball sniper is a general term which describes a certain tactic. Says who exactly? You can't just make up definitions to suit your needs. That's the crux of the whole arguement. I don't think anyone is questioning the tactics...just that, as you yourself concede, its tough to justify any traditional use of the term sniper in paintball.

you guys give me gas

peace out brothers

still bo proof of there being no snipers.