oldsoldier wrote: I am disappointed in the Smitty's attacks on the soldiers and again the "baby killer" brand again placed by agenda on those who like myself are only doing what they as volunteers under the laws of our country are sent to do.

Explain this comment before I earn my first strike for flaming you very, very thoroughly.

You're in a dream world. I AM PROTESTING Saturday, but it isn't the soldiers, it is the war in Iraq itself. I am also one of the guest speakers. I am supporting my brothers by making sure the government doesn't get too comfy with the daily body count as long as the Halliburtons and Carlisles get rich. You evidently value following your political party's agenda more than the troops.

I wrote this letter, it should explain my position pretty thoroughly:

Editor, the Gazette:

March 19 marks the second anniversary of the war in Iraq. The country is as divided about the war as it is about many political issues. Some people have agreed with the war from the start. Others of us have protested.

The war is not a political debate. Let us be united in one wish, to get it over with and bring our soldiers home. Top level government officials from the CIA to the Army have said we are no closer to ending this quagmire than when it started two years ago. We need to send a message to the president we will not tolerate another Vietnam.

On March 19, Circleville Friends (Quaker) Worship Group and People for Peace will read the names and hometowns of the 1,500 Americans killed in Iraq from 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. at the Pickaway County Courthouse in Circleville. I am a former Army captain who served in a combat zone, and there will be numerous veterans at this peaceful protest, right along with true pacifists. If you are afraid of some stigma of protesting, you could not ask to be in finer company whatever your political leanings. I ask you to support the troops and honor the fallen in this peaceful demonstration.

goodsmitty

OS, you truly are the master of revisionist history and selective memory.

Well done.

Old soldier, I would just like to be the first to thank you for serving your country. My generation needs to be more thankful for what  men like you ( and in many cases women) do so that we can enjoy freedom. My father is over in Iraq fighting right now and every time I see protesters saying bad things about our troops it makes me sick, they are all ungrateful and undeserving of the blood that has been shed in order to protect their freedom.

OS, I agree with u 100%

People claim that D.C. is full of nothing but hipocrites but infact We are all hipocrites because certain wars are celebrated and revered as heroic while others are looked upon as unjust and immoral.

I am not Anti-War nor Pro-War...I am Pro America.

-I'm Out

You know, that story is obviously intended to show how stupid pacifism is, but it actually does a pretty good job of doing the opposite. 

The problem is that the people who need to understand the place of pacifism will never be able to extract that lesson from this story because they are too locked in their mindset, which is too bad.

Thor wrote: Why Military Force Is Sometimes Needed. Here's what you can do when you happen upon one of those stupid, naive, idiots that just can't seem to understand why force is sometimes needed: 1) Find the person involved in "no retaliation" type discussion. 2) Engage him in brief conversation, then ask if military force is appropriate. 3) When he says "No," ask, "Why not?" 4) Wait until he says something to the effect of, "Because that would just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful and we should not cause more violence." 5) When he's in mid-sentence, punch him in the face as hard as you can. 6) When he gets back up to up to punch you, point out that it would be a mistake and contrary to his values to strike you, because that would, "be awful and he should not cause more violence." 7) Wait until he agrees that he has pledged not to commit additional violence. 8) Punch him in the face again, harder this time

Excellent idea my friend. Let their "non-agressiveness" protect them from getting knocked on their asses!

And OS, as I've said before, I have nothing but respect for you and any soldier (past, present, and future) that serves our country. I've got best friends in the Marines and the Air Force who are overseas in Afghanistan and Germany, respectively, and I pray for their safe return every day. But if they do not return, they will have died with honor.

So to OS, and any other vets/soldiers: Thank You.

/Yawn/

I just woke up getting ready for another night shift to find an nice, heated debate ensuing. Better get my shots in before work.

1. The typical closed mind of Cletus and Lulubelle Sixpack cannot see the difference in protesting the government's policies, but still supporting the soldiers. sad, but typical.

2. Right wingers (OS for example) use this fact to effectively label any protester as "un-American, hippie, pinko", etc.

3. The movement of disgruntled soldiers returning from the war is growing, are they "hippies?"

At some point in time when we have lost enough lives and spent enough $billions on this war that will accomplish nothing more than it has to date, the American people will start to call for its end. Maybe it's 10,000 lives, or $500 billion dollars, but I've always been on the left side of the bell curve, so I'll be protesting this Saturday.

How ironic it is that I (a veteran army officer who served in Bosnia) will be insulted on Saturday by non-veteran couch commandos who believe that the yellow ribbon on their trunk is an adequate display of their patriotism and valor.

The Guy wrote: wow, i didn't realize words were flexible enough to be bent into a 180*. Your also rather closed minded to think that we are only in this war to make other people rich.

You are naive to think that we aren't. Look up Halliburton's wonderful history.

I'm in our high school's JROTC program and plan on joining the armed services.  I have gotten to the point where I have no respect for hippies who criticize soldiers for doing their job and following their orders... it just down right pisses me off.  The Iraq War is a very important war too me.  I salute the veterans.  Thank you.

Wow, offended by those protesting and trying to keep you from dying for someone else's freedom. I personally don't feel anymore free because of this war.

I appreciate that Goodsmitty understands my view and holds no offense to me not supporting this war, nor supporting troops more than any other civil service worker in the states.

HITMAN 4 HIRE wrote: I'm in our high school's JROTC program and I have gotten to the point where I have no respect for hippies who criticize soldiers for doing their job and following their orders...

Thank you Eric Cartman.

Now, please - who are these people who are criticizing the soldiers?

HITMAN 4 HIRE wrote: I'm in our high school's JROTC program and plan on joining the armed services.  I have gotten to the point where I have no respect for hippies who criticize soldiers for doing their job and following their orders... it just down right pisses me off.  The Iraq War is a very important war too me.  I salute the veterans.  Thank you.

I am a veteran protesting the war (spelled w-a-r, not s-o-l-d-i-e-r-s). Where do I fall into your cut and dry logic?

Oooh oooh oooh, I go fishing for one afternoon and find myself being accused of calling soldiers babykillers.  I think maybe I should change my mind and demand more war so you young outspoken patriots can have your turn in the meat grinder.  Before I do this please consider:

1.  From your posts I see that few of you could pass the vocabulary portion of the ASVAB.  This will limit your ability to be an ARMY Ninja Warrior.

2.  When you get used like a two dollar prostitute by your government who will trump up a war like the current one, you can find solace in the fact that veterans from lost causes will be outspoken in keeping you in the meat grinder and that Lula Bell and Cletus will buy a Chinese made yellow magnet sticker to put on their car because they support you in your war in a place that they couldn't find on a map if the Iraqi Walmart's were highlighted on a map for them. <--- WOW!

3.  I'll let the rest of the veterans at the protest know that they are hippies and that they should be ashamed for calling themselves baby killers and not supporting the troops which they are or were.   

rypaintball3 wrote: badsmitty join the army and see if ur views are the same

Yep, they're the same.

Badsmitty wrote: 1.  From your posts I see that few of you could pass the vocabulary portion of the ASVAB.  This will limit your ability to be an ARMY Ninja Warrior.

[random thought]

I got a 62 on Word Knowledge and a 65 on Paragraph Comprehension on my ASVAB. I refused to put any contact info on the forms for it other than my name though. I still manage to get crap mail from the armed services, all of which I just dump back in the outgoing mail box and see how many times I can make it go-round (I have one of those community mailbox things)

[/]

Tae Kwon Do wrote: Badsmitty wrote: 1.  From your posts I see that few of you could pass the vocabulary portion of the ASVAB.  This will limit your ability to be an ARMY Ninja Warrior. [random thought] I got a 62 on Word Knowledge and a 65 on Paragraph Comprehension on my ASVAB. I refused to put any contact info on the forms for it other than my name though. I still manage to get crap mail from the armed services, all of which I just dump back in the outgoing mail box and see how many times I can make it go-round (I have one of those community mailbox things) [/]

They want you for the ARMY Ninja Warrior program.

Dune wrote: I wonder if these pro-war people hate the Gestapo and the Elite Japanese soldiers for the atrocities they committed during WWII. I wonder if they hate the VC soldiers for their torture techniques. My answer is yes....however, they were just following orders.

And....It was unpatriotic to question...

Haha, you're telling me I'm more free? Nope. Maybe the Iraqi's are, but not myself. I would have had the same freedoms before and after the war.

Get off the "every troop deserves respect" wagon and realize that it all depends on the person, the actions, and the war.

rypaintball2 wrote: i think good smitty has nothing to do in his life so he finds some way to make something contraversial in his life by protesting the war, oldsoldier well done in this post im with you 100% and to those opposing the war in iraq we told sadam that we would wage war if he didnt cooperate and he didnt and none of the other UN were willing to back that up, however bush did and becasue of that we are taken more seriously by countries and we are ridding the world of a terroroist nation or trying to.

I spoke to one of my best friends still in the army last month. Out of his group of seven buddies from VMI class of 95, he is the only one left alive. I am not at the point that I need to make up reasons to despise this war.

rypaintball3 wrote: badsmitty join the army and see if ur views are the same

He was an army combat medic when you were crawling around in Pampers Cruisers and regurgitating breastmilk.

Enos Shenk wrote: What kind of idiot hates the soldier for a war they disagree with? Soldiers follow orders. I blame the politicians. I disagreed with the war in iraq, but once we were in it, of course i was all for the soldiers. The sooner done, the sooner they can come home and avoid being blown up by some religious fool. Whats the point of protesting anyway? Nobody listens, or you get locked up for some nonsense charge (Republican National Convention)

nice post.  i'd have to say i agree.

Now about OS.  I'm sorry people have called you that.  You, as well as many other people who answered the call of duty shouldn't have to be subjected to negative remarks like that.  That isn't anti-american or anti-war, its a hate crime.  You don't deserve to be insulted for protecting innocent lifes whom you've never met, or will meet.  You put your life on the line for unknow people, who will never truly understand the sacrafice many soldiers have and will continue to make to save innocent lifes. 

Baby killer, I should say not.  Anyone who wants to complain about what happens in a war should go to war, then try to speak for their origonal prospective.  Untill then, they can shut the **edited** up.

Thanks OS.  Everyone here, and everyone else in the entire country owes you, and every single serviceman a thank you every day for the freedom you've given us every day.  Thanks.

Tommy

Dune wrote: Haha, you're telling me I'm more free? Nope. Maybe the Iraqi's are, but not myself. I would have had the same freedoms before and after the war.

We didn't go into this war to free ourselves nimwit, we went into it to a.) Free the oppressed and downtrodden iraqi people. b.)Remove of Terrorist groups, so that they do not have the ability to commit terrorist acts in our nation.

Unlike other nations like Japan, China, Iran, ect... and obviously yourself, the president and those around him are greatly interested in other thing than themselves.

TheUnknown. wrote: Dune wrote: Haha, you're telling me I'm more free? Nope. Maybe the Iraqi's are, but not myself. I would have had the same freedoms before and after the war.   We didn't go into this war to free ourselves nimwit, we went into it to a.) Free the oppressed and downtrodden iraqi people. b.)Remove of Terrorist groups, so that they do not have the ability to commit terrorist acts in our nation. Unlike other nations like Japan, China, Iran, ect... and obviously yourself, the president and those around him are greatly interested in other thing than themselves.

Cletus and Lulabelle history 101....

No, we went to disarm them of WMD, destroy the al-Qaeda training camps on every block, and stop the imminent attack on our soil from Iraqi nuclear weapons. As those things were all fiction, we have chosen to liberate much Iraqi oil.

goodsmitty wrote: TheUnknown. wrote: Dune wrote: Haha, you're telling me I'm more free? Nope. Maybe the Iraqi's are, but not myself. I would have had the same freedoms before and after the war.   We didn't go into this war to free ourselves nimwit, we went into it to a.) Free the oppressed and downtrodden iraqi people. b.)Remove of Terrorist groups, so that they do not have the ability to commit terrorist acts in our nation. Unlike other nations like Japan, China, Iran, ect... and obviously yourself, the president and those around him are greatly interested in other thing than themselves. Cletus and Lulabelle history 101.... No, we went to disarm them of WMD, destroy the al-Qaeda training camps on every block, and stop the imminent attack on our soil from Iraqi nuclear weapons. As those things were all fiction, we have chosen to liberate much Iraqi oil.

Exactly. Freedom of Iraqi's was 4th on the long list of lies. Anyways, what do you tell the people that claim these soldiers are fighting for our freedom? Yeah right. I don't feel the need to thank every soldier I come across because I know there are hundreds and thousands of civil service workers that deserve the same thanks.

Dune wrote: goodsmitty wrote: TheUnknown. wrote: Dune wrote: Haha, you're telling me I'm more free? Nope. Maybe the Iraqi's are, but not myself. I would have had the same freedoms before and after the war.   We didn't go into this war to free ourselves nimwit, we went into it to a.) Free the oppressed and downtrodden iraqi people. b.)Remove of Terrorist groups, so that they do not have the ability to commit terrorist acts in our nation. Unlike other nations like Japan, China, Iran, ect... and obviously yourself, the president and those around him are greatly interested in other thing than themselves. Cletus and Lulabelle history 101.... No, we went to disarm them of WMD, destroy the al-Qaeda training camps on every block, and stop the imminent attack on our soil from Iraqi nuclear weapons. As those things were all fiction, we have chosen to liberate much Iraqi oil. Exactly. Freedom of Iraqi's was 4th on the long list of lies. Anyways, what do you tell the people that claim these soldiers are fighting for our freedom? Yeah right. I don't feel the need to thank every soldier I come across because I know there are hundreds and thousands of civil service workers that deserve the same thanks.

Why not thank them all? Any public servant who risks their lives (police, fire fighters, EMS, and soldiers) deserve our respect. In peace time, soldiers suffer far fewer casualties than police officers, and vice versa in war.

I don't agree with your show of disdain for soldiers just because they are getting their due (insert smiley of choice here, you know I'm your pal). Firefighters and police officers got their due after hundreds lost their lives in the world trade center collapse. But I absolutely agree that not all soldiers are boy scouts, and some are downright criminals.

goodsmitty wrote: Dune wrote: goodsmitty wrote: TheUnknown. wrote: Dune wrote: Haha, you're telling me I'm more free? Nope. Maybe the Iraqi's are, but not myself. I would have had the same freedoms before and after the war.   We didn't go into this war to free ourselves nimwit, we went into it to a.) Free the oppressed and downtrodden iraqi people. b.)Remove of Terrorist groups, so that they do not have the ability to commit terrorist acts in our nation. Unlike other nations like Japan, China, Iran, ect... and obviously yourself, the president and those around him are greatly interested in other thing than themselves. Cletus and Lulabelle history 101.... No, we went to disarm them of WMD, destroy the al-Qaeda training camps on every block, and stop the imminent attack on our soil from Iraqi nuclear weapons. As those things were all fiction, we have chosen to liberate much Iraqi oil. Exactly. Freedom of Iraqi's was 4th on the long list of lies. Anyways, what do you tell the people that claim these soldiers are fighting for our freedom? Yeah right. I don't feel the need to thank every soldier I come across because I know there are hundreds and thousands of civil service workers that deserve the same thanks. Why not thank them all? Any public servant who risks their lives (police, fire fighters, EMS, and soldiers) deserve our respect. In peace time, soldiers suffer far fewer casualties than police officers, and vice versa in war. I don't agree with your show of disdain for soldiers just because they are getting their due (insert smiley of choice here, you know I'm your pal). Firefighters and police officers got their due after hundreds lost their lives in the world trade center collapse. But I absolutely agree that not all soldiers are boy scouts, and some are downright criminals.

Haha, I know and if I was as articulate as you then you'd see that I am saying exactly the same you are. I never agree that anyone should get "their due" when it comes to death, only acknowledgment. You and I both are on the same page, I just don't say it as well.

You are truly an inspiration to those who have been through it and want to express their feelings against the politicians.

^^^Haha. Sometimes I choose eloquence, sometimes confrontation. Neither changes anybody's mind on this forum, and confrontation is more fun, so confrontation usually wins.

I will choose eloquence this Saturday when I take the podium, I assure you.

Dune wrote: I applaud and hope you see where I'm coming from.

Absolutely. The height of the hypocrisy was the Jessica Lynch fiasco. She was a "hero" because she cowered in the back of a Humvee and lived to tell about it. What was particularly sad was that another soldier in her unit killed 9 Iraqis in that battle before being killed himself and received zero recognition.

I am fed up with this ultra-patriotism that considers any oversight of soldiers on the battlefield as being distrusting and insulting. The same ultra-patriots consider any who question the motives of the government as unpatriotic or downright treason. We are living in 1928 Nazi Germany right now, my friend-cart all arabs off to prison and deny them a trial (Guantanamo Bay), allow the government to spy on the people (the Patriot act), and scare the people to death (the terror warning system, which evidently overheated around Nov 2004 and hasn't worked since the election).

"Revisionist history" is a popular term these days. Try history, I say.

Wow Dune and goodsmitty.  This is just the most heartwarming thing watching you two bond.  It reminds me of George Bush and Jeff Gannon embracing.  I think that from now on I'll have Barbara Steisand's song Memories playing in the background when I read your posts. 

Badsmitty wrote: Wow Dune and goodsmitty.  This is just the most heartwarming thing watching you two bond.  It reminds me of George Bush and Jeff Gannon embracing.  I think that from now on I'll have Barbara Steisand's song Memories playing in the background when I read your posts.

Let's see, you and I have like, one ally on this forum, so don't insult him please.

goodsmitty wrote: Why not thank them all? Any public servant who risks their lives (police, fire fighters, EMS, and soldiers) deserve our respect. In peace time, soldiers suffer far fewer casualties than police officers, and vice versa in war. I don't agree with your show of disdain for soldiers just because they are getting their due (insert smiley of choice here, you know I'm your pal). Firefighters and police officers got their due after hundreds lost their lives in the world trade center collapse. But I absolutely agree that not all soldiers are boy scouts, and some are downright criminals.

I'm not going to enter into this debate, because neither side will ever agree, nor will either side convince the others to embrace their beliefs (yes, I am including myself in this group.) However, one thing you said jumped out at me and I just need to clarify something. You're not advocating that all police officers are cops, are you? The majority of cops have broken at least one law (no matter how major or minor) that they are charged to enforce, simply because there was nobody to stop them. Just wanted to clarify that with you.

MattyJ wrote: goodsmitty wrote: Why not thank them all? Any public servant who risks their lives (police, fire fighters, EMS, and soldiers) deserve our respect. In peace time, soldiers suffer far fewer casualties than police officers, and vice versa in war. I don't agree with your show of disdain for soldiers just because they are getting their due (insert smiley of choice here, you know I'm your pal). Firefighters and police officers got their due after hundreds lost their lives in the world trade center collapse. But I absolutely agree that not all soldiers are boy scouts, and some are downright criminals. I'm not going to enter into this debate, because neither side will ever agree, nor will either side convince the others to embrace their beliefs (yes, I am including myself in this group.) However, one thing you said jumped out at me and I just need to clarify something. You're not advocating that all police officers are cops, are you? The majority of cops have broken at least one law (no matter how major or minor) that they are charged to enforce, simply because there was nobody to stop them. Just wanted to clarify that with you.

I don’t know where you are from but where I live it is common knowledge that “Cop” is just another word for Police Officer. And what in the world does the fact that everybody commits some kind of small crime ( example: speeding) including cops, have to do with cops and firemen during 9/11 giving their lives just doing their jobs! I don't care what they did in the past, all of them are heros.

MT. Vigilante wrote: MattyJ wrote: goodsmitty wrote: Why not thank them all? Any public servant who risks their lives (police, fire fighters, EMS, and soldiers) deserve our respect. In peace time, soldiers suffer far fewer casualties than police officers, and vice versa in war. I don't agree with your show of disdain for soldiers just because they are getting their due (insert smiley of choice here, you know I'm your pal). Firefighters and police officers got their due after hundreds lost their lives in the world trade center collapse. But I absolutely agree that not all soldiers are boy scouts, and some are downright criminals. I'm not going to enter into this debate, because neither side will ever agree, nor will either side convince the others to embrace their beliefs (yes, I am including myself in this group.) However, one thing you said jumped out at me and I just need to clarify something. You're not advocating that all police officers are cops, are you? The majority of cops have broken at least one law (no matter how major or minor) that they are charged to enforce, simply because there was nobody to stop them. Just wanted to clarify that with you. I don’t know where you are from but where I live it is common knowledge that “Cop” is just another word for Police Officer. And what in the world does the fact that everybody commits some kind of small crime ( example: speeding) including cops, have to do with cops and firemen during 9/11 giving their lives just doing their jobs! I don't care what they did in the past, all of them are heros.

Wow, you missed the entire point of my post. Perhaps you failed reading comprehension in grade school? First off, I was in no way implying that "cop" and "police officer" were at all different. Second, I'm from NJ, and a lot of NJ police and firefighters lost their lives in the 9/11 attacks. But that doesn't mean that all cops are saints. Goodsmitty said that some soldiers are downright criminals. I agree with this, because there are some soldiers that cross the line. But I was just wanted to make sure that it was understood that all of the groups that are considered heros have some bad apples in them. It doesn't mean we should look down on the group as a whole, but we need to know the difference between a few bad apples and a corrupt system. I think that goodsmitty feels as I do in this matter, but I just wanted to clarify it.

Badsmitty wrote: Wow Dune and goodsmitty.  This is just the most heartwarming thing watching you two bond.  It reminds me of George Bush and Jeff Gannon embracing.  I think that from now on I'll have Barbara Steisand's song Memories playing in the background when I read your posts.

Hahaha it's true. However, I don't think you can compare me to Gannon. I really doubt I am limber and flexible as he is.

MattyJ wrote: MT. Vigilante wrote: MattyJ wrote: goodsmitty wrote: Why not thank them all? Any public servant who risks their lives (police, fire fighters, EMS, and soldiers) deserve our respect. In peace time, soldiers suffer far fewer casualties than police officers, and vice versa in war. I don't agree with your show of disdain for soldiers just because they are getting their due (insert smiley of choice here, you know I'm your pal). Firefighters and police officers got their due after hundreds lost their lives in the world trade center collapse. But I absolutely agree that not all soldiers are boy scouts, and some are downright criminals. I'm not going to enter into this debate, because neither side will ever agree, nor will either side convince the others to embrace their beliefs (yes, I am including myself in this group.) However, one thing you said jumped out at me and I just need to clarify something. You're not advocating that all police officers are cops, are you? The majority of cops have broken at least one law (no matter how major or minor) that they are charged to enforce, simply because there was nobody to stop them. Just wanted to clarify that with you. I don’t know where you are from but where I live it is common knowledge that “Cop” is just another word for Police Officer. And what in the world does the fact that everybody commits some kind of small crime ( example: speeding) including cops, have to do with cops and firemen during 9/11 giving their lives just doing their jobs! I don't care what they did in the past, all of them are heros. Wow, you missed the entire point of my post. Perhaps you failed reading comprehension in grade school? First off, I was in no way implying that "cop" and "police officer" were at all different. Second, I'm from NJ, and a lot of NJ police and firefighters lost their lives in the 9/11 attacks. But that doesn't mean that all cops are saints. Goodsmitty said that some soldiers are downright criminals. I agree with this, because there are some soldiers that cross the line. But I was just wanted to make sure that it was understood that all of the groups that are considered heros have some bad apples in them. It doesn't mean we should look down on the group as a whole, but we need to know the difference between a few bad apples and a corrupt system. I think that goodsmitty feels as I do in this matter, but I just wanted to clarify it.

Roger. We are saying the same thing. They all deserve our respect, but they are not above the law. Everyone, and I mean everyone needs oversight from somone.

Thor wrote: Why Military Force Is Sometimes Needed. Here's what you can do when you happen upon one of those stupid, naive, idiots that just can't seem to understand why force is sometimes needed: 1) Find the person involved in "no retaliation" type discussion. 2) Engage him in brief conversation, then ask if military force is appropriate. 3) When he says "No," ask, "Why not?" 4) Wait until he says something to the effect of, "Because that would just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful and we should not cause more violence." 5) When he's in mid-sentence, punch him in the face as hard as you can. 6) When he gets back up to up to punch you, point out that it would be a mistake and contrary to his values to strike you, because that would, "be awful and he should not cause more violence." 7) Wait until he agrees that he has pledged not to commit additional violence. 8) Punch him in the face again, harder this time

If you see me at a peace rally, by all means see if that works. 

MattyJ wrote: goodsmitty wrote: Why not thank them all? Any public servant who risks their lives (police, fire fighters, EMS, and soldiers) deserve our respect. In peace time, soldiers suffer far fewer casualties than police officers, and vice versa in war. I don't agree with your show of disdain for soldiers just because they are getting their due (insert smiley of choice here, you know I'm your pal). Firefighters and police officers got their due after hundreds lost their lives in the world trade center collapse. But I absolutely agree that not all soldiers are boy scouts, and some are downright criminals. I'm not going to enter into this debate, because neither side will ever agree, nor will either side convince the others to embrace their beliefs (yes, I am including myself in this group.) However, one thing you said jumped out at me and I just need to clarify something. You're not advocating that all police officers are cops, are you? The majority of cops have broken at least one law (no matter how major or minor) that they are charged to enforce, simply because there was nobody to stop them. Just wanted to clarify that with you.

I thought that COP meant Consumer Of Pastries.  Are there any who do not?

goodsmitty wrote: goodsmitty wrote: Badsmitty wrote: Wow Dune and goodsmitty.  This is just the most heartwarming thing watching you two bond.  It reminds me of George Bush and Jeff Gannon embracing.  I think that from now on I'll have Barbara Steisand's song Memories playing in the background when I read your posts.  Let's see, you and I have like, one ally on this forum, so don't insult him please. And I will shoulder your insult because it includes a negative reference to our president. The crosses I bear.

You know, you guys are right and I'm way wrong.  The song is actually "The way we were."  Sorry about that.

MattyJ wrote: MT. Vigilante wrote: MattyJ wrote: goodsmitty wrote: Why not thank them all? Any public servant who risks their lives (police, fire fighters, EMS, and soldiers) deserve our respect. In peace time, soldiers suffer far fewer casualties than police officers, and vice versa in war. I don't agree with your show of disdain for soldiers just because they are getting their due (insert smiley of choice here, you know I'm your pal). Firefighters and police officers got their due after hundreds lost their lives in the world trade center collapse. But I absolutely agree that not all soldiers are boy scouts, and some are downright criminals. I'm not going to enter into this debate, because neither side will ever agree, nor will either side convince the others to embrace their beliefs (yes, I am including myself in this group.) However, one thing you said jumped out at me and I just need to clarify something. You're not advocating that all police officers are cops, are you? The majority of cops have broken at least one law (no matter how major or minor) that they are charged to enforce, simply because there was nobody to stop them. Just wanted to clarify that with you. I don’t know where you are from but where I live it is common knowledge that “Cop” is just another word for Police Officer. And what in the world does the fact that everybody commits some kind of small crime ( example: speeding) including cops, have to do with cops and firemen during 9/11 giving their lives just doing their jobs! I don't care what they did in the past, all of them are heros. Wow, you missed the entire point of my post. Perhaps you failed reading comprehension in grade school? First off, I was in no way implying that "cop" and "police officer" were at all different. Second, I'm from NJ, and a lot of NJ police and firefighters lost their lives in the 9/11 attacks. But that doesn't mean that all cops are saints. Goodsmitty said that some soldiers are downright criminals. I agree with this, because there are some soldiers that cross the line. But I was just wanted to make sure that it was understood that all of the groups that are considered heros have some bad apples in them. It doesn't mean we should look down on the group as a whole, but we need to know the difference between a few bad apples and a corrupt system. I think that goodsmitty feels as I do in this matter, but I just wanted to clarify it.

I did not understand because you worded it badly so that it sounded like you were saying what I said it sounded like. Now that you have clarified what you said, I completely agree with you.

I'm not sure if it is selective memory, or just selective observation in the first place.  Hard to tell the difference sometimes.

Another interesting phrase:  "Effort justification."

Bolt3 wrote: Bowling for Columbine. Good movie. Go watch it.

Really annoying/boring/stupid movie.

OS wrote: .....care to compare the youth violent crime rate pre video game era to today...may shock you

Good reason why correlational statistics should be kept out of the hands of the underinformed.

BTW, OS, not to get picky or anything, but a sig complaining about idiots works a lot better with proper spelling.  You might want to fix that.

OS's Sig wrote: My motto is: Never argue with idiots, they will drag you down to thier level and beat you with expierience.

Although at least you aren't calling people "retarted", unlike some of our members...

I protest all wars, I'm consistent.

Anyways, it seems too much of a scapegoat to blame movies and video games. I guess that's what happens when people don't feel the need to take responsibility for themselves and their children.

oldsoldier wrote: The gospel according to Micheal Moore, Americans are not violent, every socirty has those who for thier own personal gratifacation inflict pain on others. If you want to point blame, how about violent video games that glorify killing......desensitize youth to what shooting someone actually does, no reset button.... Violent and graphic movies......and the list goes on...and of course it is your right to view this.....care to compare the youth violent crime rate pre video game era to today...may shock you

Video games made Bush invade Iraq?  Yeah, I see the logic.

oldsoldier wrote: As for the "babykiller" reference, you two smitty"s need to review your past postings...and I quote...."But our entire nation calls little dead children in Iraq "collateral damage." Are our little white American fetuses more precious than little brown Iraqi ones?" veiled referance but the point is American servicemen still intentionally kill "little dead children". And another true anti-war or anti-violence statement from our resident leftists,"Woot! Getting ready for the March 19 protests! I even have a few extra days off in case I get arrested. I hope I get to do a pre-emptive strike on those Protest Warrior fools if they show up."

1.  No veiled reference to calling anyone a babykiller.  Save that word twisting crap for the weak minded.  There are dead Iraqi civilians.  No use of the word babykiller from me.  Deal with your own conscience if you need to.

2.  If you assume I am a pacifist, you are wrong.  I was a soldier, too.  Just not legendary like yourself.      

3.  Lieutenant Dan off of Forrest Gump just keeps coming to mind when I read your posts....