I like to think of it in medical terms, the fighting and everything going on in the Middle East is like a cancer, it's been going on for generations, and to this day does not seem to be getting better.  In my perspective, it will only get worse, like a cancer.

The best way to solve the problem, is to subdue the problem as quickly as possible and start "rehab" in the Middle East countries.

Yes, as Liquid3 said, there are always alternatives to military action, but once again referring to cancer, it's better to get right to it and solve the problem, rather than taking small steps and "poking" at the problem little by little.

Bolt3 wrote: So why are we still in Iraq then.

umm.. cause Iraq is in rehab..

Zesty wrote: You're warped

Me? Thanks..

Ah, yes, the obligatory "just kidding" copout from OS.

Right on schedule.

Name two other options

P!NK panther wrote: it's iraq's fault...why do we have to solve their problems...thats what i believe

If you recall the American revolution, we didn't do it ourselves either. The French played a big part. If it weren't for them we probably wouldn't have won. So no, the Iraqis probably couldn't do it on their own.

Badsmitty wrote: I was at a protest today.  There were soldiers from the Big Red One there, too.  They were in uniform.  They told us that Iraq was a "goatscrew."

Yes. And there are plenty that do support it as well.

I also asked this in the other War Protestor debate, but once I posted the thread died...I guess I can do that. Anyways, has anyone ever read Plan of Attack?

I saw it the other day and it looked good.

oldsoldier wrote: No, unfortuanately Clark, not a cop-out, just an observation. To bad I am not a learned as some here, had time for a collage education so I can physco anylize(sp) every one elses postings. Even my spelling sometimes needs work, jeeze I actually admit to my faults, and do not demean other individuals for pure enjoyment, maybe a group observation time to time.

Nice victim stance.  You're so sweet and fluffy that they should sell you at carnivals.  If you feel psychoanalyzed by the responses to your posts, then maybe it was overdue.  Don't hate on someone because they went to college.  There are no doubt student loans, grants, etc. available to you. 

Hades wrote: lant wrote: Clark Kent wrote: You think those are the only two options? Seeings on how we have been at war with these people for generations(christians vs. muslims) i dont think there really is alternatives. We can't call time out now and talk it over during brunch. Somone will win and someone will lose. God i hope we are the ones that win. Do you? Just get rid of religion all together and we wont have to worry about anything. Go have your holy wars on some other planet...

Exactly... I think wars over religion is one of the most pointless things to be fighting about, considering what religion stands for.

I don't think anywhere in the bible or Koran (sp?), etc., says to kill each other based on your beliefs...

It's like a bunch of four year olds fighting over which toy is better.

tippmannboy2 wrote: Name two other options

Ok.

Option 1:  Withdraw all military presence from the Middle East, including Saudi Arabia.  Stay the heck out the whole place, and leave them alone.  Withdraw all support for Israel, and them handle their own business.

Osama (and others) have repeatedly referred to these points as the primary reason for targeting the US.

Option 2:  Convert to Islam.

And I can think of many more options, as well.  You may not like the options, and I may not like the options, but it is childishly simplistic to believe that "fight them here or fight them there" are the only possible options.  Those may be the best options (or not), but they are certainly not the only ones.

Terrorists, revolutionaries, insurgents, and other underground groups rely on crisis maximation to motivate their troops - which is why crisis minimization has always been an effective counter-terrorism strategy.  Shooting at terrorists, while viscerally satisfying, sometimes has unfortunate side effects.

Zesty wrote: So, Badsmitty and Clark Kent have basically the same position(which I tend to agree with), which is firmly opposed to what OS believes.

I can see where you might conclude that.  The irony, of course, is that on a substantive level I am probably closer to OS' position than I am to the Smittys' position.  We just seem to get so bogged down in hyperbole that it is hard to even see the substance.

oldsoldier wrote: No, unfortuanately Clark, not a cop-out, just an observation. To bad I am not a learned as some here, had time for a collage education so I can physco anylize(sp) every one elses postings. Even my spelling sometimes needs work, jeeze I actually admit to my faults, and do not demean other individuals for pure enjoyment, maybe a group observation time to time.

Good gravy. Click on that freaking abc button to the top right and spell check your posts before posting them. Then you can only be victimized for your gramer (sp?) gramar (sp?) grammer (sp?) grammar!

oldsoldier wrote: My only true disappointment is seeing Americans who use thier right to freedom, protesting the freeing of another people, and see it as something wrong that America did for whatever "misguided" reason.

Do our soldiers have any right to say no to liberating a country that has nothing to do with the people who attacked us? NO

I wonder what percentage of those soldiers signed up to defend their country, protect its interests, and get a college education? I bet more than 80%, and the remainder are the super-patriotic. They aren't mindless automatons, they are poor kids seeking the American dream instead of hanging out on the block selling drugs. So how do we answer their willingness to PROTECT our country? We sent them to Iraq who had nothing, zip, nada, kein, nicht to do with the attacks on 9/11.

I wish we could save the whole world, O.S., but we can't. And those soldiers didn't sign up to, either. I am convinced that your civic duty is to convince the young men on this site to sign up to run headlong into a meatgrinder. My civic duty is to bring our guys home as soon as possible and call mindless patriotic zeal for what it is-dangerous.

Thor wrote: It comes to a bad time when kids(yes, i am aware i'm only 19)have the gall to disrespect someone like OS...who, in real life, could murder you before you got a chance to fight back(i ain't sucking up here, but i believe this to be a fact)

So I should pay homage to OS just because he could kill me with his bare hands?

Seems a bit odd of a standard.

Seriously, dude - the soldier worship has got to stop.  Serving in the military is honorable and good (usually) - but it doesn't make you a diety.

I agree with OS' position (of supporting the troops, and down with the corrupt politicians) but the way he goes about "debating" is horrible. His views can be a bit radical at times, also. (And this says a lot coming from Belt)

Posting something along the lines of "Support the troops cuz im a old retired soldier who fought in vietnam. When i came home evry 1 h8ed me. dey called me a babykill3r." Then allowing everyone to argue amoungst themselves, flame, and pick your poorly constructed argument to pieces? After all of that takes place, you redeem with a "you misundastood me, u wrnt listening, im an old vietnam vet, i didnt go to college, ur samrter then me, wha wha wha"? Only to have more viscerate pick THAT "argument"?

The "but you don't understand!" only works for teenage girls. Give it a rest, sir.

Don't get the wrong idea, Old Soldier, I respect you as a former american soldier, and as a man. I look up to you beacuse you stepped up to the plate (so to say) when our country needed you. While you were off in some foregin country, busting your ass, day in, day out, getting shot at, a large number of unwashed, unshaven, uncouth hippies were protesting your every move from the safety and sanctaty (sp) of a country that embraces the idea of freedom (which, ironicaly, soldiers, like yourself, have to fight to protect). I hold the utmost of respect for soldiers and social service workers (police, fire fighters, EMS).

I am critisizing your methods of debate and argument, not you as a person, or what you have done to defend this country in it's time of need. I do agree with your main belief (support the troops and social service workers), but it is my main belief that your views and perspective can be a bit radical (if not extremeist) at times.

Thor wrote: I just want to ask this...say bad and kent had actually been overseas and seen the good military presence has upon people(cause even i have seen it), then why must it be a last resort? You can take every side street you want, but it'll be too late for little abdar who owns a shop but has to pay taxes to the crooked cops. Right well, i just think you guys should play nice and throw some more respect around, cause it's getting out of hand.

I thought we covered this in the last debate, when you spoke about respecting the protesters by punching them in the face?

badsmitty and goodsmitty (brothers) are BOTH veterans of the army, and BOTH served in foreign countries. We just don't require daily strokings of our conscience and egos.

And since neither badsmitty or goodsmitty were Delta Force Rainbow Six Green Beret Navy Seal SWAT Team Major Payne Commandos, we will have to settle with begging for mercy before you clean the streets with us like all of the other spineless pacifists that were consumed by your fiery neo-conservative wrath at yesterday's protest. <<whew>>

Clark Kent wrote: So I should pay homage to OS just because he could kill me with his bare hands? Seems a bit odd of a standard. Seriously, dude - the soldier worship has got to stop.  Serving in the military is honorable and good (usually) - but it doesn't make you a diety.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. The soldier-worshipping puts me in the mind of "all quiet on the western front." There is a teacher that spins up his pupils with stories of valor, heroism, and patriotism. The whole class enlists but only 2-3 come home alive (WWI). Their feelings about their once favorite teacher change markedly once they saw the horror of war personally. Absolutely my favorite book.

I remember in Bosnia how horrible it was when soldiers were killed by a land mine or drowned when their tank rolled into a flooded canal. But the worst were the suicides. I personally hosed a soldier's brains out of a truck when he killed himself in my motor pool because of the loneliness and whatever horrors he saw. I don't have the luxury of fourty years hindsight to cushion that memory enough to cheer young men right into their deaths in Iraq.

I will be completely frank, I enjoy debating with O.S. But I think a veteran that claims to have seen combat and wholeheartedly urges  any youth he can influence to go see combat for themselves has unresolved issues and is the worst kind of danger.

You all get as mad as you want, but remember, O.S. isn't the only veteran here, so you can either selectively respect who fits your mold of what a veteran should be, or be open minded to other viewpoints than your own.

O.S., I would like to apologize, but I'm not. You are misleading these kids right to their deaths.

Clark Kent wrote: Zesty wrote: So, Badsmitty and Clark Kent have basically the same position(which I tend to agree with), which is firmly opposed to what OS believes. I can see where you might conclude that.  The irony, of course, is that on a substantive level I am probably closer to OS' position than I am to the Smittys' position.  We just seem to get so bogged down in hyperbole that it is hard to even see the substance.

TRAITOR!

Thor wrote: I am utterly appalled at the lack of respect on this forum. i do not wish to take sides but i feel that Badsmitty and Kent need to "psychoanalyze themselves. It comes to a bad time when kids(yes, i am aware i'm only 19)have the gall to disrespect someone like OS...who, in real life, could murder you before you got a chance to fight back(i ain't sucking up here, but i believe this to be a fact) on the flip side, OS is trying to impose views upon deaf ears, which isn't the way to go. I just want to ask this...say bad and kent had actually been overseas and seen the good military presence has upon people(cause even i have seen it), then why must it be a last resort? You can take every side street you want, but it'll be too late for little abdar who owns a shop but has to pay taxes to the crooked cops. Look at the Tsunami, we didn't even hesitate to send in the military, and believe you me, i heard some stories from over there that liken to some crap in Iraq or A**crackistan....but no one opposes that. Right well, i just think you guys should play nice and throw some more respect around, cause it's getting out of hand.

Thor, thank you from the bottom of my heart that you are not taking up for me.  Good luck, O.S. 

lol - an easy mistake to make, given the way the discussion flows.

As it turns out, I support the war in Iraq.  I always did.  I have posted this support several times over the last few years.  It's just that in these threads, nobody seems to ask what I actually think.

:)

Clark Kent wrote: Thor wrote: It comes to a bad time when kids(yes, i am aware i'm only 19)have the gall to disrespect someone like OS...who, in real life, could murder you before you got a chance to fight back(i ain't sucking up here, but i believe this to be a fact) So I should pay homage to OS just because he could kill me with his bare hands? Seems a bit odd of a standard. Seriously, dude - the soldier worship has got to stop.  Serving in the military is honorable and good (usually) - but it doesn't make you a diety.

Bingo.

Clark Kent wrote: lol - an easy mistake to make, given the way the discussion flows. As it turns out, I support the war in Iraq.  I always did.  I have posted this support several times over the last few years.  It's just that in these threads, nobody seems to ask what I actually think. :)

Your medicine must be wearing off. You're supposed to think what I tell you to think.

You guys will never change each others opinions on the current political situation of our nation. Why continue to type pages of crap like this, that only serve the purpose of demeaning one another.....

OH I forgot that's what the internet is good for.

I am vaguely amused at how OS' thread became a stoner drum circle.

:)