I'm new to the forum, so I thought I'd open up a really nasty can of worms. I've read alot on this board that has to do with sniping. I wanted to give some idiot newbie input. I've been playing paintball for a couple of years, but I've always studied militaria. That's why I play. Sniping, despite common misconceptions, isn't one shot one kill, nor is it hiding in the woods. Those are basic military principles. Sniping is a skill. I know a couple of ex-snipers. Snipers are trained to do many things at once-but most of the time they hide-usually directed at a single target. I'm afraid too many newbies, including me when I first grabbed a gun, start paintball fresh off the online video games like Delta Force, and plan on using those tactics in paintball. I got a serious lesson in getting beat the first time I played trying to snipe fellow player. What I learned is that to create the speed and distance in a paintball to snipe, it would almost have to be lethal. Therefore to be a "sniper" in paintball-assuming the definition of a sniper is not what does, but the skill in which he does it-you would have to be an expert with your gun. The key to being a sniper is to stay hidden. They teach you in the military to stay hidden at all costs. How many people in reality can actually take another player out without his locaion being compromised? Sitting in a trench waiting for another player is an ambush. Staying hidden isn't sniping, it's called woodsball. What would sniping be in paintball, then? In my opinion, sniping is going after one target, and taking that target out without being seen or heard from. As I said, I'm not an expert, I'm simply giving my humble imput on this discussion. I've hashed this out with my friends over and over, and from my little experience I've learned the hard way that sniping isn't only hard, in the average game it's near impossible.

Yeah, that was a really long-winded rant, but I'd like to hear more from other players who've been out there alot longer than me as to whether sniping is a valid position in paintball, and different ideas on how to pull it off. I think there was another thread on this elsewhere, so sorry if I'm rehashing old arguments.

Welcome to the forum. With the paintball snipers... Now I look the other way and don't get myself into the argument anymore. If you have target shot a hi power rifle or know about fieldcraft it is dismissed. There are role playing snipers, but thats it.  Those of you who put scopes on your marker - do you adjust them for drop @ distance in gameplay? Do you "snipers" even know what a MOA is?

Sounds like you know this is a can of worms... lets try to keep from getting it out of hand.

Welcome to the forum, but this is in the wrong section, it should be in T&O. or new players.

With that said, thank you for your comments, unlike many people, your comments do show a great degree of experience and knowledge of play.

However, you still have a lot to learn about paintball. You can not squeeze off a paint marker round without giving away your position for a couple of reasons, 1) Paint balls are ultra sub-sonic rounds, so you can see where they came from, just like tracers. 2) Because of the close proximity of your opponents in paintball, there is no marker quiet enough for no one to hear where your shots came from. Also, in order to be an effective player, you have to stay with your team and work with them, not go off on your own.

Just remember, this is how you get better in paintball, by learning and asking questions.

welcome to the forum. i dont really get into these big and long sniper arguments and this should be in the T&O forum.

Good Luck

1. To shoot at individuals from a concealed place.
2. To shoot snipe.
3. To make malicious, underhand remarks or attacks.

Thats defined in the American Heritage Dictionary

I also forgot to mention that the word snipe came from people who were able to shoot snipe(Birds). The birds were so hard to hit because they could turn 90 degrees without slowing down almost. It was so hard that they called the people who could Snipers. I learned that in New Orleans from one of the tour guides.

In response to Darur-

No buddy, thats woodsballer tactics

They have woodsball in the military? I wasn't talking about paintball, I was talking about the military. And those are basic military skills, non-exclusive to snipers.

Buddy, you just told me that was a "military principle", not a sniper thing.

It is a military principle. It's not exclusive to snipers.

Make up your mind buddy.  You told me first staying hidden is a military thing not a sniper thing, then you told me its vital to being a sniper, not you are saying its not sniping.

You didn't show any contradiction in what I just said. Staying hidden is vital to being sniper, but doesn't make you a sniper. As I stated above, being a sniper is the ability to put basic military principles together and add in being an extremely good shot with an accurate weapon. If you can't stay hidden while doing this, you won't las very long in the real world.

Thats all fine and dandy but if you search the topic we've shown it doesnt work.

And your point is-? I think that's where I was headed with that long post.

I'll try to put my opinon in less lengthy words-I don't think sniping works for the average player. That's why I wanted alternate opinons-to either back up or dismiss my opinon. Also, I put this in the New Ideas forum because I wanted to hear new ideas on how to make sniping work. That was where I was going, and I didn't know which category it would fall under, so I posted it in this one. And I believe I stated quite a few times that I'm not an expert, and that's why I'm asking other opinons. If I was trying to act like one, I wouldn't have asked.

LordJovian-Not sure what you meant by "go cry somewhere else". I don't care if someone puts on a Medal of Honor and goes around saying they're a sniper. That doesn't bother me. I think people who act like being a paintball player makes you a real soldier are not only ignorant, but probably have lived in a cave for a large portion of their life. That's not what this post is about. It's not ranting about how it irritates me that people refer to themselves as snipers, it's about whether other people think sniping is possible practically in sniping.

Get a remote contol airplane and put one of those cool radio cameras in it. Attach a cargo load of paintballs, set up like grapeshot. Then call it, the "Sniper"!

Imagine the guys on the ground, "ohh no, hears comes that little..."

^lol

A MOA is an inch per hundred yards nickodemus.

Sniping is a word that has a couple of meanings, like when hunters would shoot a bird called a snipe, which is a small and fast flying bird, they where called snipers, basicaly meaning a good shooter. In world war one they hardly had what you could call a sniper, but as guns and scopes and radios and camo got better the art evolved into what they are today: a inteligence gatherer, an observer, a demoralizer and a high precision enemy removal system.

In paintball the weapons are not near so advanced as a modern rifle, I mean I can put three bullets in a half inch group at a hundred yards with my .243 rifle any day, which is half a moa. You can not get near that good with a paintball gun at 30 yrds.

My point is you can have a sniper in paintball, in a highly organized team, but most of the time you just have a one man ambush.

Good rule of thumb for estimation.

M-minute O-of A-angle

Close, but 1 MOA @ 100 yards is 1.0472 inches. The difference gets bigger at further distance.

MOA (in) = [tan(1/60) X distance to target yards] X 36

Practial problem:

Some newbie zeroed my scope at 50 yards. My scope has 1/4 MOA adjustments. I shoot a group at 500 yards and decide I want to bring my point of impact up 5 inches. How do I adjust my scope?

A= 4 clicks up.

I decide to play at 25 yards with my rifle. My group lands 4 inches up and 3 inches left. How do I zero it for 25 yards?

A= 64 clicks up, 48 clicks right.

I still say people should just call them scout players. Much more applicable.

Nickodemus wrote: Good rule of thumb for estimation. M-minute O-of A-angle Close, but 1 MOA @ 100 yards is 1.0472 inches. The difference gets bigger at further distance. MOA (in) = [tan(1/60) X distance to target yards] X 36 Practial problem: Some newbie zeroed my scope at 50 yards. My scope has 1/4 MOA adjustments. I shoot a group at 500 yards and decide I want to bring my point of impact up 5 inches. How do I adjust my scope? A= 4 clicks up. I decide to play at 25 yards with my rifle. My group lands 4 inches up and 3 inches left. How do I zero it for 25 yards? A= 64 clicks up, 48 clicks right.   I still say people should just call them scout players. Much more applicable.

ya i guess you got a point!!! i being in the military (well i just got back du to an injury to a knee ) i have only one thing to say

Darure SHUT UP if you dont know what your talking about sorry to be (edited)about that but the kid hase a good point about does skills!!

And yes sniper is not a good name for that skill!!! alltought its the closest thin to it it wont work!!

Darur, you're my hero.

tears of joy

I could teach a drunk chimp to shoot, so long as it could hold still.

I will give you some tips for shooting with the normal iron sights:

1.) Move the front sight opposite to how you want the impact to move. (If the impact is to high, then the front sight is to low.)

2.) Move the rear site in the direction of desired impact.

To determine how much change is needed in inches, multiply in inches the amount of correction needed at the target by the sight radius (the distance between the rear and fron sight in inches). Divide this by the inch distance to the target (100 yards = 3,600 inches.)

For example - If your rifle is shooting 10" high at 100 yards, and has a 20" sight radius, the math would be:

(10" X 20")/3600" = 0.056"

You would bring the front sight up or the rear sight down 0.056" to hit your target.

I think sniper, sniping, and shotgun should be added to the damn filter and damn too thats a bad word

please mods, tippmann, someone, do it...

Sorry guys, but I am trying to put some useful info in this "sniper" thread. Call them scouts, it's not sniper/scout school that they train at for nothing. That's like saying your a seal but not a UDT.

I covered the basics of sight adjustment, now holding for wind:

This is guesswork but there are methods. Remember, your projectile is more vulnerable to wind near the end of it's travel. This is because down range the projectile is moving slower, and also the wind has been acting on it longer. Wind is usually never constant - if you are shooting 1000 yards it may push your projectile left for the first 200, then towards you for the next 50, then the wind will curl and go right for the rest of your projectiles travel. Remember, the wind sock by you was reading left, but the last part of travel and most significant distance covered the wind was right. I say it is guesswork because it will shift.

So, to accurately correct for wind you need to make a little chart of how many inches your projectile gets shifted at a given range with a given wind speed. For wind direction you only need to memorise these shifts at anolog clock directions 1:00, 2:00, and 3:00. I would put data for 5 knot, 10 knot, 15 knot, 20 knot, 25 knot, and 30 knot winds. Wind coming from 9:00 will have the same effect as wind coming from 3:00, it will just push the projectile in the opposite direction.

So if I go to shoot and see that a wind sock down by the target reads a 15 knot wind coming from 7:00. I have to look in my notes or remember what 15 knots shifts the projectile at 1:00, say it moves point of impact 3" left at this distance, then correct the direction for the shift that pushes opposite 1:00 (the 7:00 wind sock). My POI is going to be 3" right.

I thought about sharing some advanced skills like accounting for mirage, and trajectory changes when shooting through glass windows, but maybe another day.

Darur wrote: Nickodemus wrote: Sorry guys, but I am trying to put some useful info in this "sniper" thread. Call them scouts, it's not sniper/scout school that they train at for nothing. That's like saying your a seal but not a UDT. I covered the basics of sight adjustment, now holding for wind: This is guesswork but there are methods. Remember, your projectile is more vulnerable to wind near the end of it's travel. This is because down range the projectile is moving slower, and also the wind has been acting on it longer. Wind is usually never constant - if you are shooting 1000 yards it may push your projectile left for the first 200, then towards you for the next 50, then the wind will curl and go right for the rest of your projectiles travel. Remember, the wind sock by you was reading left, but the last part of travel and most significant distance covered the wind was right. I say it is guesswork because it will shift. So, to accurately correct for wind you need to make a little chart of how many inches your projectile gets shifted at a given range with a given wind speed. For wind direction you only need to memorise these shifts at anolog clock directions 1:00, 2:00, and 3:00. I would put data for 5 knot, 10 knot, 15 knot, 20 knot, 25 knot, and 30 knot winds. Wind coming from 9:00 will have the same effect as wind coming from 3:00, it will just push the projectile in the opposite direction. So if I go to shoot and see that a wind sock down by the target reads a 15 knot wind coming from 7:00. I have to look in my notes or remember what 15 knots shifts the projectile at 1:00, say it moves point of impact 3" left at this distance, then correct the direction for the shift that pushes opposite 1:00 (the 7:00 wind sock). My POI is going to be 3" right. I thought about sharing some advanced skills like accounting for mirage, and trajectory changes when shooting through glass windows, but maybe another day.   Buddy, its a paintball.  If you can get the thing to stay straight for even 30 ft its a miracle. Make all the charts and crap you want, it wont do you any good.

Yes, yes my point exactly. Read the whole post and you understand what I am doing. These paintball "snipers" could care less about actual sniper skills. This information is usful to anyone who does any real shooting that may not know it, and I am sure there are some of you on this forum. 

Fieldcraft? I could teach you how to live in the woods for days without making much evidence your there. None will be interested. How can you then call yourself a "Sniper." Thats my point - if your going to pretend, at least have an interest in the role your playing.

Also, if your paintball doesn't stay straight at 30' you really need to learn to aim, or shoot better paint.

I agree with you Demus, most people don't care about true sniper qualities, they just want to shoot a few people with getting seen, and even then they don't have the proper pattern of thought about stuff like escape routes and ways your buddies can move into the void you created with a few well placed shots.

I don't know about calling them a scout, because unless they have radios they are not doing much good, I think they are more like one man ambush, OMA for short... hmm, oma is german for grandmother.

But then agian I still think on a highly organized woodsball team they would be vital for scouting and for sniping they are also good for flanking the enemy when you are stuck in a 50 50 fire fight.

Go to the link for learning more about paintball sniping, which I think is hardly related to the true military sniper.

http://www.specialopspaintball.com/articles/the_true_paintball_sniper.asp - http://www.specialopspaintball.com/articles/the_true_paintba ll_sniper.asp

I mean range estimation by using a mil scope or the width of your front site.

How I would employ your scouts in woodsball:

[waiting in ambush]

newbie: "When are they going to come over here"

Nick: "Don't worry, I sent two scouts that way to find them and bait them back"

...

newbie: "I hear markers shooting over there, that's behind our ambush"

Nick "Yeah, I guess they found them - Listen to all that, they are outnumbered, they are buying us time - forget this ambush we all need to move this way, now!"  

Darur wrote: Nickodemus wrote: Sorry guys, but I am trying to put some useful info in this "sniper" thread. Call them scouts, it's not sniper/scout school that they train at for nothing. That's like saying your a seal but not a UDT. I covered the basics of sight adjustment, now holding for wind: This is guesswork but there are methods. Remember, your projectile is more vulnerable to wind near the end of it's travel. This is because down range the projectile is moving slower, and also the wind has been acting on it longer. Wind is usually never constant - if you are shooting 1000 yards it may push your projectile left for the first 200, then towards you for the next 50, then the wind will curl and go right for the rest of your projectiles travel. Remember, the wind sock by you was reading left, but the last part of travel and most significant distance covered the wind was right. I say it is guesswork because it will shift. So, to accurately correct for wind you need to make a little chart of how many inches your projectile gets shifted at a given range with a given wind speed. For wind direction you only need to memorise these shifts at anolog clock directions 1:00, 2:00, and 3:00. I would put data for 5 knot, 10 knot, 15 knot, 20 knot, 25 knot, and 30 knot winds. Wind coming from 9:00 will have the same effect as wind coming from 3:00, it will just push the projectile in the opposite direction. So if I go to shoot and see that a wind sock down by the target reads a 15 knot wind coming from 7:00. I have to look in my notes or remember what 15 knots shifts the projectile at 1:00, say it moves point of impact 3" left at this distance, then correct the direction for the shift that pushes opposite 1:00 (the 7:00 wind sock). My POI is going to be 3" right. I thought about sharing some advanced skills like accounting for mirage, and trajectory changes when shooting through glass windows, but maybe another day.   Buddy, its a paintball.  If you can get the thing to stay straight for even 30 ft its a miracle. Make all the charts and crap you want, it wont do you any good.

I could with about a 35-39 ft barrel with no porting and a messed up valve that sends out air continuously maybe...

Sentinelz wrote: Darur wrote: Nickodemus wrote: Sorry guys, but I am trying to put some useful info in this "sniper" thread. Call them scouts, it's not sniper/scout school that they train at for nothing. That's like saying your a seal but not a UDT. I covered the basics of sight adjustment, now holding for wind: This is guesswork but there are methods. Remember, your projectile is more vulnerable to wind near the end of it's travel. This is because down range the projectile is moving slower, and also the wind has been acting on it longer. Wind is usually never constant - if you are shooting 1000 yards it may push your projectile left for the first 200, then towards you for the next 50, then the wind will curl and go right for the rest of your projectiles travel. Remember, the wind sock by you was reading left, but the last part of travel and most significant distance covered the wind was right. I say it is guesswork because it will shift. So, to accurately correct for wind you need to make a little chart of how many inches your projectile gets shifted at a given range with a given wind speed. For wind direction you only need to memorise these shifts at anolog clock directions 1:00, 2:00, and 3:00. I would put data for 5 knot, 10 knot, 15 knot, 20 knot, 25 knot, and 30 knot winds. Wind coming from 9:00 will have the same effect as wind coming from 3:00, it will just push the projectile in the opposite direction. So if I go to shoot and see that a wind sock down by the target reads a 15 knot wind coming from 7:00. I have to look in my notes or remember what 15 knots shifts the projectile at 1:00, say it moves point of impact 3" left at this distance, then correct the direction for the shift that pushes opposite 1:00 (the 7:00 wind sock). My POI is going to be 3" right. I thought about sharing some advanced skills like accounting for mirage, and trajectory changes when shooting through glass windows, but maybe another day.   Buddy, its a paintball.  If you can get the thing to stay straight for even 30 ft its a miracle. Make all the charts and crap you want, it wont do you any good. I could with about a 35-39 ft barrel with no porting and a messed up valve that sends out air continuously maybe...

Sight adjustment is the same for paintball markers (if you have sights), that is why I said "projectile" not "bullet" or "paintball". Also windage estimation. The difference is the low velocity and inconsistency of the paintballs. They don't go far, have huge amount of drop, and arn't accurate because they're not solid. Other then that, paintballs follow the same rules as any other low-speed projectile.

When I shoot, I strive to have the weapons/projectiles inaccuracy be the weakest link in the chain between myself and the target. Use good paint and bench shoot your market at 30' with it braced against something steadier then you. Aim it at the same one small point every shot, and send a group of paint down range. See how much smaller this group is compared to when you play and shoot at a target that far away.

Let me know how it goes if your group is still to big, it's not difficult to accurize your marker for 30'.

Darur wrote: HITMAN 4 HIRE wrote: theres sniping in paintball get over it. Prove it

I guess everyone has there decided definition of Snipers and Sniping. It just seems that the paintball snipers don't care about the skills that everyone else in the world's definition of sniper holds.

Darur wrote: Sniperdaddy wrote: alot of you are missing the point.sniping is NOT staying in one spot picking off targets that only you can see. the only reason that i got my 98 flatline is because my imagine couldnt hit a brick wall. so for all of you out there who are confused about the whole point of sniping it is simply this: 1. really accurate gun Name one please                     &n bs p;          2.avoiding other players paintballs Gosh!  You think?!                     &n bs p;          and 3. moving around to get a better vantage point of your opponent So, do the rest of the woodsballers all shoot guns with curvey barrels, eyes closed while jumping in front of others shooting at them and staying in one spot? that sums it up

Yeah, that is about the worst arguement I have ever seen trying to prove their existence.

Nickodemus wrote: Sentinelz wrote: Darur wrote: Nickodemus wrote: Sorry guys, but I am trying to put some useful info in this "sniper" thread. Call them scouts, it's not sniper/scout school that they train at for nothing. That's like saying your a seal but not a UDT. I covered the basics of sight adjustment, now holding for wind: This is guesswork but there are methods. Remember, your projectile is more vulnerable to wind near the end of it's travel. This is because down range the projectile is moving slower, and also the wind has been acting on it longer. Wind is usually never constant - if you are shooting 1000 yards it may push your projectile left for the first 200, then towards you for the next 50, then the wind will curl and go right for the rest of your projectiles travel. Remember, the wind sock by you was reading left, but the last part of travel and most significant distance covered the wind was right. I say it is guesswork because it will shift. So, to accurately correct for wind you need to make a little chart of how many inches your projectile gets shifted at a given range with a given wind speed. For wind direction you only need to memorise these shifts at anolog clock directions 1:00, 2:00, and 3:00. I would put data for 5 knot, 10 knot, 15 knot, 20 knot, 25 knot, and 30 knot winds. Wind coming from 9:00 will have the same effect as wind coming from 3:00, it will just push the projectile in the opposite direction. So if I go to shoot and see that a wind sock down by the target reads a 15 knot wind coming from 7:00. I have to look in my notes or remember what 15 knots shifts the projectile at 1:00, say it moves point of impact 3" left at this distance, then correct the direction for the shift that pushes opposite 1:00 (the 7:00 wind sock). My POI is going to be 3" right. I thought about sharing some advanced skills like accounting for mirage, and trajectory changes when shooting through glass windows, but maybe another day.   Buddy, its a paintball.  If you can get the thing to stay straight for even 30 ft its a miracle. Make all the charts and crap you want, it wont do you any good. I could with about a 35-39 ft barrel with no porting and a messed up valve that sends out air continuously maybe... Sight adjustment is the same for paintball markers (if you have sights), that is why I said "projectile" not "bullet" or "paintball". Also windage estimation. The difference is the low velocity and inconsistency of the paintballs. They don't go far, have huge amount of drop, and arn't accurate because they're not solid. Other then that, paintballs follow the same rules as any other low-speed projectile.

HOLY CRAP!!!! I just thought of a new paintball that might fly straight!

I need to do some estimates and math I'll be back....

Long Tr'ang wrote: Nickodemus wrote: I mean range estimation by using a mil scope or the width of your front site. How I would employ your scouts in woodsball: [waiting in ambush] newbie: "When are they going to come over here" Nick: "Don't worry, I sent two scouts that way to find them and bait them back" ... newbie: "I hear markers shooting over there, that's behind our ambush" Nick "Yeah, I guess they found them - Listen to all that, they are outnumbered, they are buying us time - forget this ambush we all need to move this way, now!"     yes but todo that u need to know the size of somehting at or neer that range to do it succesfully

Correct. You can use the estimated height of a person downrange very well. Also, there are other tricks, a 20" sillouhette will dissapear behind the width of your front site on a M1 (unless you have match sights) at exactly 300 yards. So if your target's width is visable when you aim at it, it's less then 300 yards away, and if it is more narrow then your front sight, then that is a +300 yard shot. Laser range finders are awesome until they break or the batteries die. If you see a target off in the distance and you do not know the range, but have five Rifleman, get each to adjust their sights for the estimated range, then put a minor change on each of them so that when they open up at least one will hit. remember it is better to hit low then high. If your projectile hits air, you never see it. But if it kicks up a little dust when it hits ground, you can adjust your sights off that. "Whoever gets there with the mostest, fastest, wins."

Don't the people in paintball who think thier snipers do that^ anyway?

Sniperdaddy wrote: alot of you are missing the point.sniping is NOT staying in one spot picking off targets that only you can see. the only reason that i got my 98 flatline is because my imagine couldnt hit a brick wall. so for all of you out there who are confused about the whole point of sniping it is simply this: 1. really accurate gun                                2.avoiding other players paintballs                                and 3. moving around to get a better vantage point of your opponent that sums it up

So then by your definition, every woodsballer in the world is a "sniper."

I try to give them more credit then that, but with some of these forumers I may get suprised.

Range estimation with MOA and mil-dot recticle.

Most weapons either scoped or iron sighted are graduated in the MOAs. I explained a MOA earlier in this thread... now we will take it further for range estimation. Really easy if you have a scope with stadia lines of 1MOA:

[(size of object in inches) X 100]/size of object in MOAs = range in yards

Now if you don't have that fancy scope you can use your front sight also. First calculate the MOA width of your front sight:

21600/[(sight radius in inches X 2pie)/front sight width in inches)] = MOA

Now to use it for estimating range. Say you calculated your front sight to be 8MOA with the second equation I gave you. How far away is your target? You want to shoot at a target with a 20 inch torso and your sight blanks it out perfectly. Use the first equation I gave you.

[(20" torso) X 100]/8MOA = 250 yards

Now for the scopes with mil-dots! Mils (3.6" @ 100 yards, or 36" @ 1000 yards). 1mil = 3.438MOA

Remember when measuring the length of a target in mils to go from the center of the dot or hash mark to the center of the next one, not the edges. They are 1/4mil wide and 3/4 mil apart. Heres your equation:

[(size of object in yards) X 1000]/size of object in mils = range in yards

If a 6' man (2 yards) is 4 mils in your scope then he is exactly 500yds away. 2 X 1000/4 = 500

MOAs are 3.438x more precise then mils, but if your shooting a cannon at a building or vehichle use mils.

I took a photo for you all, so that you may see some common calibers:

http://img187.echo.cx/my.php?image=dsc001703fl.jpg

http://img187.echo.cx/my.php?image=dsc001736tb.jpg

Since this thread is in the wrong area and on "snipers," I am thinking about pulling out the shooting info I put into it. I would modify it, add too it, then put it into the new players forum under the topic of aiming. I never went over the fundamentals of a steady shot that I assumed everyone had, so I would brief over that.

I would do it now, but don't have time... I know a lot of people do not see how this info relates to paintball. Maybe I should put it in T & O or leave it here? Those who are still reading this thread... should I let this info I typed slip into the unactive archive under the wrong topic because I was trying to prove a point?

alright...  Yeah, you are in the wrong forum topic area thingy for your subject, but hey, what the heck.  You wanted to know if a sniper is a valid position in paintball?  Two words.  Heck yeah!  When I play woodsball...   wait a minute, heres my setup first:

Tippmann 98 Custom (black)
-Flatline with shroud  -Special Ops Air Through SAW Stock -Expansion Chamber -Dead On Double Trigger  -Response Trigger System  -A scope -a PMI remote coil -bi-pod system -and best of all, a halo hopper when I ramp it up to 17 bps (where allowed).

*cough, here we go again.  When I play woodsball, I play one of two things.  A sniper (covers the captain, or the leader).  Or, I play Saw gunner (the big dude who likes to shoot everything that gets in his way).  Your right, sniping isn't all hiding, but it is a valuable position to play in order to cover your teammates and take out other captains in scenario games.  Nice meeting ya!

YEAH!!!1!!!one!!!shift+1!!! I get to use this again!!!1!!!one!!!shift+1!!!

I wonder Darur since you're obviously much smarter than me as I click that damn link everytime I see it... would the ball fly straight if it had chambers and X amount of paint in the chambers? I went off to do math a few days ago posted a few times and then forgot and then remembered and then later remembered I can't do math or algebra I can barely handle geometry...

this anti-sniper dude is ticking me off. I'm gonna set you straight.  There is sniping in woodsball, and scenario woodsball.  Sniping directly means: a shot from a concealed place, to shoot at a person from a concealed place straight from the DICTIONARY:  If your playing scenario paintball right, and one of the objectives is to take out the red teams general, I would look at a map, figure out the best way to approach their base and trails, hide a distance back from a trail, and wait.  general walks by, he doesn't see me a hundred feet off or two, I would pop two shots, and badda bing, I shot him while SNIPING!.  Get over it.  Sorry, but that's the way it is.

warwingsaw3 wrote: this anti-sniper dude is ticking me off. I'm gonna set you straight.  There is sniping in woodsball, and scenario woodsball.  Sniping directly means: a shot from a concealed place, to shoot at a person from a concealed place straight from the DICTIONARY:  If your playing scenario paintball right, and one of the objectives is to take out the red teams general, I would look at a map, figure out the best way to approach their base and trails, hide a distance back from a trail, and wait.  general walks by, he doesn't see me a hundred feet off or two, I would pop two shots, and badda bing, I shot him while SNIPING!.  Get over it.  Sorry, but that's the way it is.

How often do you hit a walking target at 200' with 2 shots from your marker?

I know, I have landed some long balls and streched my marker out on the bench to see what it's capable of.

"distance to target (drop)+target elevation+windage+constant velocity & pressure & paint+leading =target hit"

It's a matter of having good paint and a consistent marker.

Did you read the secrets I wrote in this very thread already?

Everytime I play woodsball I ambush, half the firefight we don't see each other... are we all snipers/counter snipers. The problem people have Warwingsaw3 is when player's (particularly new ones afraid to get hit) call themselves snipers. Using it as a noun as apposed to a verb.

quite honestly, the only thing I've read was the topic post, my posts, and very few.  Honestly, no, I did not read your secrets.  But now that you've said so, I'm gonna find 'em.  Anyway, I didn't know you knew that formula. I'm impressed.  Good job man.  See anti sniper dude?  Us sniper people even got formula's!

and about sniper....  Read the MAY 2005 ISSUE of APG Paintball Magazine.  It talks about sniping.  Sniping is the act of shooting from a concealed postion.  Ambush is lying in wait in order to surprise attack somebody.  Ambush and Sniping are nearly the same in deffinition, but the words "lying in wait" particullarly mean your gonna move.  A sniper on the other hand, lies in wait, but doesn't ambush his enemy, rather simply takes out a key target, and doesn't bother taking out other opponents, since that's the job of the frontlinesman (or if you've ever played Special Ops style, Daggars and Broadsman.)

Snipers aren't afraid to get hit, they just know how to hit their target from a distance.  That's all really sniping is, it's a hit and run, while ambush is hit, and hit some more.  That's my personnel opinion.

I put my shooting info into a new topic because it was out of place here. I posted it to get a mingling of thoughts with the "snipers" and no one had much to say?

Now it is under a proper topic if you want to read it easier, search -

"On the topic of aiming" in thoughts and opinions.

Make a post to bump it up so that others may get an oppertunity to see it. No one gave me much reply besides "good info."

I usually wait until Sr_crewchief of OS gets in here to obliderate any and all arguments that the pro-sniper people have then watch them flounder in a quagmire of useless arguments and silly comebacks before I lock these threads.

I'm not going to lock this one just yet. I'm tempted. Very tempted. Instead, I'll do what I don't usually do, and add my input here.

I don't know all that MOA crap.
I don't know the exact militart specifications for interdiction rifleman.
I DO know that the proper application of ALL of the factors (there are more than one) of sniping in paintball are not only impossible, they're downright stupid to argue in favor of.

~Shooting from a concealed position: I've been playing woodsball for about 7 years now. I try to have ALL my shots taken from a concealed position. 

~Ghillie suits and flatlines....Laughable. I've seen more kids in mismatched ghillie suits get pelted that it's become a running gag. Flatlines sure give you range, but the inhanced accuracy over that range is a cute argument.

~Optics on paintball markers....again, worth laughing at until I throw up. There isn't a marker alive with the consistent accuracy over a distance to warrant a scope. If you put a scope on a paintball marker, You're not only limiting your field of vision, but you're also pretty much ensuring a miss when taking a long shot. If you want to view something at a distance, use binoculars. Scopes are silly.

~The stories that kids tell about sniping their friends are 99% crap I'll bet. enhanced, reversed, or made up on the spot, paintball is alot like fishing like that.

~back to my main point here for a second: from the research I've done and the expierence in the field that I have, the numerous aspects of sniping aren't applicable.

working for intel and recon- not exactly laying in the bushes and waiting for your friend to stick his head up.

range shooting- IS necessary, as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise, anyone could do it. If all that distance shooting isn't necessary, then go tell Sgt. Slaughter to bulldoze his 1000meter ranges.

consistent accuracy- again, show me a paintball marker that will give you a tight grouping at 100 yards.. or 50 yards.

strategic placement for shots- the closest you get is camping on the side of the road hoping your adversary comes down it.

And so on and so forth.

~Sure, we can apply one or two pieces of the term to the game, but not all, no way in hell are we going to properly apply all of them to the game.

Its alot like dissecting a frog in science class and calling yourself a surgeon. Cute, but not accurate.   

Reb Cpl - Did you read where I said that I want to wear a red hat next time I play so that I can be a fireman.

Yes it is funny to see someone go to the effort of the ghille suit but not have the sense to mix it with their locations vegitation in the field.

I aggre with you on your post... but please don't close it until all arguments are exhausted and it is turned into a crap fling... you know members won't just search.

Nickodemus wrote:  but please don't close it until all arguments are exhausted and it is turned into a crap fling... you know members won't just search.

Thats the plan. So far, it hadnt turned into anything that deserves to be locked. Usually, these threads don't last half as long. This is a good thing fellas, keep the discussion civil. Thats part of the reason I didnt move it to T/O or New players....it'll get hijacked in no time flat there.

Monk wrote: I agree Reb, Some of the descriptions dont fit. But the few that do, and the people that do it the best, should be considered whatever they want to be called. In some cases they want to be called a sniper.

Herin lies the problem. I haven't got a problem in the world with anyone wanting to be CALLED 'sniper' Thats one thing. But when you get people swearing seven ways to sunday that they ARE in fact, snipers just because they hide in the bushes and can get good shots off, thats where my beef lies.

What I think spawns this entire issue is the absolute bombardment that we are exposed to as children by the movie industry as to the glory and power of the sniper. Granted, there is something spectacular about the entire concept, but remember that kids are so interested in imitating that which they find interesting, that something like this is no exception. I'll admit, that when I started playing paintball, I dreamt of being the ultimate sniper, sneaking around the brush, laying down shots that befuddle my opponents and then vanishing into the trees. Then I realized two things. That wasnt going to work, given the limitations of the equipment, and the limitations of my own skills, which while not at all mean, they can't hold a candle to that level of skill necessary to be able to achieve the level of awesome that I wanted. Few if any of us can.

The second thing that I realized was that sneaking around through the woods and shooting the 'enemy' before they shot me....was the entire point of the game. My doing the best I can to imitate the images that I found on television and in the movies was doing me no good, because that was exactly what everyone else was doing.

When me and my peers grew up a little bit, we realized that the longer barrels, and the fancy marker setups might look cool, but their effectiveness was limited. It is with some chagrin that we admit to each other that we all wanted to be Tom Berrenger in 'Sniper'

With age comes wisdom in most cases. You'll realize that the time you'll invest camping under a shrub and hoping against hope to get that textbook snipe-shot could have been better used to engage your adversaries in a much more stimulating fashion, and you won't have to sacrifice stealth or skill to do it.

OS put it best one day, and by looking at the quote that I've had in my sig for almost a year now, you'll understand what I mean.

Call yourself a sniper, call yourself a fireman, or a sea monkey, hell, call yourself a bat for all I care....as long as you realize that no matter what you call yourself, you are still the same as I am. A paintballer. We utilize the same set of skills, and thile they might be at different levels, they ARE, in fact the same. We play the same game. We have the same objective. If you want to put so much effort into arguing the schemantics of a term and the application of necessary skills, go for it, but in the end, like I said, you do the same thing I do, and you're the same thing I am....and I am not a sniper.

^ It's funny how people play military scenario games in PB, and then suddenly think they have military experience.

Are you certain that I DONT have military expierence there chief?

Regardless of wether or not I have expierence, I think its funny that someone who has, or says they have expierence hold themselves in such lofty regard.

Explain to me why, rather than rebutt my argument you swoop into 12 year old mode and try to insult me.

Because while my military information might not be first hand, it is extensive. I'm beyond being dilusioned by a few movies or scenario games. Apparently, you may not be.

What was I thinking?

Reb Cpl wrote: Are you certain that I DONT have military expierence there chief?   Regardless of wether or not I have expierence, I think its funny that someone who has, or says they have expierence hold themselves in such lofty regard. Explain to me why, rather than rebutt my argument you swoop into 12 year old mode and try to insult me. Because while my military information might not be first hand, it is extensive. I'm beyond being dilusioned by a few movies or scenario games. Apparently, you may not be.

I wasn't insulting you-I agreed with you. You said that people weren't snipers just because they played it in paintball. I said it's funny how newbs always go around bragging they're experienced in military tactics when they've done nothing but play paintball. Not sure how that's 12 year old mode, but for future reference, unlike alot of other Internet forumers, I don't resort to mindless name-calling to settle differences. Try to keep that in mind before you act to fast on my posts.  BTW. I feel the same way you do about snipers-I don't know where people get off thinking I'm pro-sniper. I just posted this to get opinions-I never really took a side.

stratoaxe wrote: Reb Cpl wrote: Are you certain that I DONT have military expierence there chief?   Regardless of wether or not I have expierence, I think its funny that someone who has, or says they have expierence hold themselves in such lofty regard. Explain to me why, rather than rebutt my argument you swoop into 12 year old mode and try to insult me. Because while my military information might not be first hand, it is extensive. I'm beyond being dilusioned by a few movies or scenario games. Apparently, you may not be.   I wasn't insulting you-I agreed with you. You said that people weren't snipers just because they played it in paintball. I said it's funny how newbs always go around bragging they're experienced in military tactics when they've done nothing but play paintball. Not sure how that's 12 year old mode, but for future reference, unlike alot of other Internet forumers, I don't resort to mindless name-calling to settle differences. Try to keep that in mind before you act to fast on my posts.  BTW. I feel the same way you do about snipers-I don't know where people get off thinking I'm pro-sniper. I just posted this to get opinions-I never really took a side.

Sorry dude, I misunderstood you...Do I feel like an ass.

Reb Cpl wrote: Sorry dude, I misunderstood you...

No need to be sorry-I should have made myself more clear. I was a mod over a forum for like three years-I would have reacted the same way if I'd have read the post. Alot of people misunderstand me, (see the _TT_ thread lol) but I actually don't argue on the Internet. I might give a smart response, but I try to stay in the rules. The last thing I want to do is get on the mods' bad side, lol...

Darur wrote: stratoaxe wrote: I'm new to the forum, so I thought I'd open up a really nasty can of worms. Not a wise move I've read alot on this board that has to do with sniping. I wanted to give some idiot newbie input. I've been playing paintball for a couple of years, but I've always studied militaria. That's why I play. Sniping, despite common misconceptions, isn't one shot one kill, nor is it hiding in the woods. Those are basic military principles. No buddy, thats woodsballer tactics Sniping is a skill. I know a couple of ex-snipers. If they are real military snipers they will tell you sniping in Paintball is bull poo Snipers are trained to do many things at once-but most of the time they hide-usually directed at a single target. I'm afraid too many newbies, including me when I first grabbed a gun, start paintball fresh off the online video games like Delta Force, and plan on using those tactics in paintball. I got a serious lesson in getting beat the first time I played trying to snipe fellow player. What I learned is that to create the speed and distance in a paintball to snipe, it would almost have to be lethal. Therefore to be a "sniper" in paintball-assuming the definition of a sniper is not what does, but the skill in which he does it Whats the skill? -you would have to be an expert with your gun. The key to being a sniper is to stay hidden. Buddy, you just told me that was a "military principle", not a sniper thing. They teach you in the military to stay hidden at all costs. How many people in reality can actually take another player out without his locaion being compromised? Depends on the player being shot.  Its not that hard you will find. Sitting in a trench waiting for another player is an ambush. Staying hidden isn't sniping, Make up your mind buddy.  You told me first staying hidden is a military thing not a sniper thing, then you told me its vital to being a sniper, not you are saying its not sniping. it's called woodsball. Hence my earilier point . . . What would sniping be in paintball, then? In my opinion, sniping is going after one target, and taking that target out without being seen or heard from. Thats all fine and dandy but if you search the topic we've shown it doesnt work. As I said, I'm not an expert, I'm simply giving my humble imput on this discussion. I've hashed this out with my friends over and over, and from my little experience I've learned the hard way that sniping isn't only hard, in the average game it's near impossible. More like is impossible Yeah, that was a really long-winded rant, but I'd like to hear more from other players who've been out there alot longer than me as to whether sniping is a valid position in paintball, and different ideas on how to pull it off. I think there was another thread on this elsewhere, so sorry if I'm rehashing old arguments. And Wrong forum buddy

Every dang thing "darur" sain was absolutely stupid. He just cant face the fact that he (or she) is not smarter than everyone on this forum. Pick on someone else, buddy!

You Wont See Me wrote: Darur lives in hawaii, hes gotta be the smartest person on the forums.

Burn

to Darur: hokay so what im getting from all of this is that the differneces in mil sniping, and paintball sniping are only the method of propulsion and the type of ammunnition.  Now lets point out the similarities;

1-a gun/marker   2-concealed position   3-camoflauge worn by "sniper" theres probably more but im too lazy.  We dont need to base what sniping is on how a dictionary defines it.  Sniping is shooting from a consealed position at like 3 or less targets or else the survivors own you.  I do agree however that sniping is nearly impossible unless you have a group of people to protect you when  hits the fan.  My verdict- Sniping possible-yes if there is fire support, no if you're a lone wolf attempting to take out miltiple targets.  Discuss

maddog87 wrote: snping isnt when people think they can shoot farther than anyone else, its when they can pick off a player at a reasonably medium/long distance that the trajectory of a paintball will allow them to. i  think its rediculos when people say snipers dont exist. there so ignorant and it makes them sound like newbies

Wow. You are a hard core noob.

Yes! That's right! Look at my name! Laugh at it! God, what was I thinking when I made this name...

oh man u are sooooooooo cooooooooolll............................................... ............................................................ .................................................

.........not

maddog87 wrote: oh man u are sooooooooo cooooooooolll............................................... ............................................................ .................................................

That wasn't my point, you moron.

maddog87 wrote: oh man u are sooooooooo cooooooooolll............................................... ............................................................ .................................................         .........not

youre such a badass....not

Monk wrote: Can we all just agree that the word sniper is up to interpretation?

Yes

Darur wrote: maddog87 wrote: snping isnt when people think they can shoot farther than anyone else, its when they can pick off a player at a reasonably medium/long distance that the trajectory of a paintball will allow them to. i  think its rediculos when people say snipers dont exist. there so ignorant and it makes them sound like newbies Goly gee!  Why doesnt EVERYONE do that then?! Oh wait, they do, they are called WOODSBALLERS.

no (Hey look! I got a strike!) sherlock!man your amazing!