Sounds like your mind's made up, so quit wasting time reading and do something else. Also quit trying to break the faith of others.

atheism and religion have something in common: they should both be practiced behind closed doors. Let your actions prove your beliefs.

Heres To You wrote: Anyone can distort the bible, it's been done by more than just you. Try reading the whole parable, not just one verse. Let me give you a quote from my last paintball adventure.  "I shot him in the face."  If you didn't know the whole story, wouldn't you be misled? People have been trying to disprove the bible forever, and never have I seen one valid point...

neither have I.

Pariel wrote: There wouldn't be any fight over this if one of them was clear cut. Neither one is proved,a nd I've seen good points for both sides. That said, I believe in Christianity for a reason: I've seen God have a personal relationship with me in my life. I can't make you believe it, I can only show you what I believe.

I agree.

Wow, no one mentioned Mel Gibson.

Should we mention it? I will.

I felt the movie explained something deep to me just not very exciting, and I kinda couldn't stay focused, but it was a nice attempt at spreading the word.

That's taking a pretty broad view of "we"...

So it's ok that infants die from preventable disease, because it is the fault of other humans?

All humans are liable for the faults of all other humans?

That's pretty brutal...

Clark Kent wrote: That's taking a pretty broad view of "we"... So it's ok that infants die from preventable disease, because it is the fault of other humans? All humans are liable for the faults of all other humans? That's pretty brutal...

Mixed agreement.

Where is Honk Kong? Is it next to Donkey Kong? King Kong? Ping Pong? Ding Dong? Sing a Song?

Floods and crap are going to happen. It's part of how the Earth works. They have to happen, if they didn't God wouldn't have made them. The problem is we build in places we shouldn't be building. Take Florida for example, why the heck do they allow them to build mobil homes and houses not suitible to ride out a Category 2 hurricane? Why do people build shacks on unstable mountain where it rains a lot? Mobil homes in tornado alley? I mean common. Most of these deaths could have been prevented by the commen sense of not building ultra weak buildings in areas prone to catastrophic forces.

Blaming everything on God is taking the easy way out. God gives us challenges in life. He does this, and said he does it to weed out the true believers from the non believers and imposters like people who say I'm Catholic (but really haven't been to Church in years for no reason) And look around, there is still plenty of good stuff God has given us, don't be so pessimistic. "His covenant my shield" Yeah crap will happen, but God will help us move on.

Actually those who have easy lives are facing just as hard a test. They have nothing to worry about, and many of them see no reason to worship God or anything. Each person has his/her unique challenges. Some harder than others yes, but our challenges normally go against our faults.

DBibeau855 wrote: There is no why i could give you for any of gods actions.

Why is it that Christians are quick to give praise to god when something good happens, but give the old "god moves in mysterious ways" excuse when something bad happens?

If god gets the credit, he should also get the blame.  Both or neither.

Hades wrote: Sounds like [to me atleast] God isnt very fair if he makes some people's lives harder than others.... Why isnt everyone given the ultimate challege to prove their faith?

They are-it's called life. Most people forget that God set the world in motion and lets man deal with it. Man sinned the Garden of Eden, man and his race were given the world in all of its fury. Our bodies are fallible. We live-we die. God promised Adam and Eve that they would be mortals. Which means that death happens. And if you want to get into technicals-more babies are killed by abortions than natural causes. There have been more babies killed by abortion since RoeVWade than Jews in the holocaust. Look it up. I'm not advocating or protesting the subject of abortion-I'm simply saying man does more to himself than God "allows". A tsunami is a part of nature-so are droughts and famines. God said that would happen. Man chose sin over eternal life in the Garden of Eden. We're simply along for the ride.

hey everyone I saw a bunch of people post how there is disease,famine,and other disasters and that there cant be a God because of this. Well let me ask you this, if the world was perfect and nobody needed a thing would anyone trust in God? would anyone need to?

No.  And wouldn't that be nice?

So your argument is that god created a crappy world on purpose just so people would have to pray to him for special favors?

And how about the "Chosen People"?

Don't you think 5,000 years of punishment on their decendants is pretty rough, when all they did was get lost on the way to the Promised Land?

Chosen my behind...

^^^^   True dat.  But that guy is always surrounded by ten other guys telling how this is part of god's plan, or god moves in mysterious ways, and so forth.

And every time there is a natural disaster or something, every pastor in the land becomes an apologist for god.

I have NEVER EVER heard any clergy of any kind declare that "yeah, god screwed that up", or "boy, god must have missed his coffee this morning" or anything like that.

The only people complaining about bad god, bad god, are the guys on the way out of the church.

I've never heard a pastor apologize for God. And the whole "God moves in mysterious ways" phrase is simply a generic way to keep from explaining something to people. I believe that sometimes things happen because things happen, and alot of times things happen as a result of people's screwed up lives. If you throw yourself in front of a train, it'll probably run over you. God didn't make it run over you, and He didn't stop it. You shouldn't have thrown yourself in front of a train.

Weeelllllll....

What you guys are describing is almost a Deist perspective, with the absent god.

Christianity, on the other hand, describes an active and involved god.  We are forever hearing about divine intervention.  So if god could intervene to cure little Billy's cancer, why couldn't he intervene to stop Jill's cancer, or to stop the occasional tsunami?

Moreover, god is omnipotent and omniscient.  That means that god has the knowledge of badness, and the power to stop it.  Logic tells me that only volition is missing.

God is viewed as a Zeus-like figure because that is how the Christian church has presented him.  What you guys are describing is not Christianity.

For those of you that say Christians are imposing their views and principles on everyone else, I'd like to say that you're either living in a cave or have smoked one too many. Nobody's forced to live any way they don't want to, and that theory really gets on my nerves. George W. Bush and the Pope (for some reason they're being used in the same category ) have done nothing to enforce their way on me or anyone else. If his beliefs make you mad, get over it. I don't complain about the beliefs of Muslims, Jews, Budhists, or Atheists. But it seems that it's always the atheists that are complaining about the Christians. I don't care what you believe-I'll discuss anything with anybody here, but if my beliefs rub you wrong I really don't care.

stratoaxe wrote: For those of you that say Christians are imposing their views and principles on everyone else, I'd like to say that you're either living in a cave or have smoked one too many. Nobody's forced to live any way they don't want to, and that theory really gets on my nerves. George W. Bush and the Pope (for some reason they're being used in the same category ) have done nothing to enforce their way on me or anyone else. If his beliefs make you mad, get over it. I don't complain about the beliefs of Muslims, Jews, Budhists, or Atheists. But it seems that it's always the atheists that are complaining about the Christians. I don't care what you believe-I'll discuss anything with anybody here, but if my beliefs rub you wrong I really don't care.

I believe I speak for many when I say "huh?"

Brunse wrote: hitman, god made us to test us to see if we are loyal and live to his word then he will grant us in to heaven.

That sound pretty evil to me...

That makes god sound like a sadistic narcissist.

Darur wrote: I guess that would also make your employer a sadistic narcissit . . .

I honestly don't see any parallel whatsoever.  Please elaborate.

Hades wrote: I am not speaking of this forum. I am speaking of the RW. ie, Jeb and G. W. Bush Also it doesnt even have to go so far as telling people to be Christian that urks people, but the forcing of others to live up to a Christian standard that isnt nessisary for a happy life. It is one thing to have a set of personal and moral beliefs, but to make laws and force people to adhere to them, I think is wrong. When the most powerful people in the world, American president, pope, many others, force their own personal beliefs onto others, people with different ideology are going to be upset and fight back.

That was my point, Clark. My question was who is enforcing their beliefs on anyone? The President nor the Pope has.

DBibeau855 wrote: To put it bluntly, we [I presume you meant 'can't' here] understand god plan. But, we can try. I try, and i use my friend to help me. He has been dead for 5 years. 5 Years ago, my best friend killed himself. It took a long time of bible study, personal reflection and searching through passages and texts to figure something very important. God could have easily stopped him from killing himself. If god chose to, he could have sent an angel to apear before him in his hour of need and said NO! But he didnt, and my friend shot himself. I asked myself, why would god let me get attached to him, only to have him taken away. It was to give me the nessesary tools to help people, to give me a common ground to connect with people in need. I now work in a church and help people in similar in situations. My work has broght me through crying with members of the church, and advising pregnant mothers on abortion or not having an abortion. It has brought young kids completely at odds with themselves strugling to wake up in the morning. We learn through pain. If we had a completely sheltered life, and nothing happened to us. What could be possibly know of life? If everything was sunshine and blue skies, what would it mean to us, without the ocasional thunderstorm?

And this is completely consistent with what clergy has been telling me for years.  And, ultimately, I just don't buy it.  Or rather, I find it unsatisfactory.

It is an even mix of guessing at god's motives and admitting ignorance of god's motives.  It is a game played by every grieving relative on the planet, of every religion.  But it is just that - a game, an excuse, random justification.

But, just on a wild chance - did your friend happen to be a student at the University of Illinois?

stratoaxe wrote: That was my point, Clark. My question was who is enforcing their beliefs on anyone? The President nor the Pope has.

Ah, yes.  I had forgotten about that post.  My bad.

Darur:  My employer didn't create the world.  My employer just lives here, just like me.  My employer is bound by the rules, just like me.

Not the same thing.

Brunse wrote: what gets me mad u atheist people say we  should put worship behind doorsbut u banned prayer in schools i tought u people dont care about religen but u get mad we are doing this did we hurt your feelings because we faith and hope.

Who are you talking to?

why bring up your employer when this not a subject about your employer???  are messed up or on something!!

Darur wrote: Ahh but now your stretching my point, I was just focusing on God's admitting people to heaven.

But you can't view that in a vacuum.  Your logic applies to St. Peter, perhaps, who just works there.

God set up the whole system.  He designed the rules.  He has to be judged on the entire existence.

Darur wrote: Sir, please step away from the Bong . . . .

lol...

:)

who founded this nation ,christians!!!!! they because wanted to stop being jailed and killed and god cares about us he sent in his son to die for us.  stop fighting u atheist libral hippie freaks!!!!

Forced prayer in school is a bad thing-but I also think that forbidding anyone from praying over the speakers at a high-school football is a bad thing. People mistake exposure to religion with enforcing religion.

Ejp414 wrote

The nation was founded mostly by Christians who were fans of the tabula rasa theory and Deists. Thomas Jefferson actually was known to vituperatively lash out against Christianity from time to time. But, hey, he didn't do much anyway, right?

 i am talking about 1600s not 1700s  purtains and quakers were here hit the history books!!!

Ejp-your post didn't sound aggresive. I appreciate the civilized responses.

Brunse-dude that made no sense at all. Our Constitution was signed mainly by Deists. He's right.

dadur the first settlers were first states but england took over!!!!!

u got to stop smokeing pot because it ruining the facts behind history!!!!!!!!! 

Wayland
 

u are from vietman {communist dont beleive in religen}