who attacked us on 9/11. Actually, he does, but he still invokes multiple references to the September 11th attacks when talking about this goatscrew in Iraq to try to justify it. Pathetic.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050629/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush;_ylt=AvDWbhzUOKvMWyZeZ2agaA.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050629/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush;_ylt =AvDWbhzUOKvMWyZeZ2agaA.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0b Q --

Who cares man. The soldiers are happy because they get to do what they have trained long and hard for. They know they can die at any moment, and have accepted it. The ones the media keeps talking to are the pansys who tried to get a free ride through college in the military and don't want to be there. The media is the equivalent of the Nazi propaganda machine, they tell you what they want you to believe man....make up your own mind.

I quit watching TV alltogether because of all that crap. The media takes the facts and twists them to get ratings.

Also, we just did what we should have done during Desert Storm. Thats what happens when politics gets in the way of war.

Take this to heart whenever you think about stuff like this.

"Those who have long enjoyed such privileges as we enjoy forget in time that men have died to win them." -FDR-

We fight conflicts abroad so the turmoil has no chance of finding its way to our shores as this did.

By the way, I'm proably going to Iraq within the next year or so. I hope so anyhow.

A whole forum dedicated to politics?

What a wonderful plan. Nothing but page after page of people arguing from one side of any particular issue rather than look at the whole picture?

With noone changing anyones mind, with thousands of links supporting, debating and refuting each others arguments?

The name calling, the insulting, the never ending frustration of it all?

If ever that was instituted here, I'd quit. Theres already too much of it here in T/O if you ask me. Not that discussion of politics isnt a good thing, its just that too many people aren't equipped to do it.

Linus wrote: Well, there is no proof that they DID help, but also none that they DIDN'T. They did harbor terrorist, which is one reason why we went in... Anyway.. I could care less, we are in now and we won't leave just becasue he is criticised

I was unaware of that... Saddam harbored terrorist in Iraq? Funny to here you guys talk about the media, and misinformation. I was sure he was the ony regime of terror in Iraq. Saddam ran a secular regime. That means they had no religion. To Alcaida, Taliban, and other religious extremest, Saddam was even as us "infedel" Americans. Saddam would never surrender any WMD to a terrorist group that would then possibly use them against him. Everyone who knows Saddam says he is the ultimate control freak. He did have some terrorist way up near the boarder in the north, that region was very rural and out of his control. Saddam could not even exert conventional military might on his neighboors after we disarmed him in the first gulf war. He is evil and it is good that he is out of power, but there are far worse and threatening leaders in the world. The "insurgensts" we fight now flooded in after the invasion from across the boarders so that they may fight, harrass and demoralize a standing American army.

The IDF intelligence said that the 9-11 guys where Egyptians.

Linus, what I'm trying to say is that Saddam didn't really have a religious regime. He had a Saddam regime. I agree with you as far as the way the war was fought, we did it right.

Linus wrote: nEmRoÐ wrote: Give him an AK47 have him fight in his wars and impress daddy that way. Why give Bush an Ak47 when we use M16's and M16 > Ak's No flamage will take place, but you are ignorant of that remark "Let him fight his own wars" How could it have been better planed? We kicked ass going in, they were down for the count in a matter of weeks, fastest military op in history. Strato, that doesn't change the fact that it WS a Sunni run government and he WAS a Sunni.

Yeah, pretty easy of us to fight a group of people that didn't want to fight nor were they properly trained in the first place. We still haven't won the war, and I would place it on the shoulders of the insurgents much like the VC in Vietnam. We may have kicked butt in the beginning, but things started to thin out and many of the original Iraqi troops had no ambition to fight us. I guess when the excuses for going in run all out then maybe our country will finally face the truth of why we went in.

Who care if they attacked Kuwait? Who cares if they were in missle range of Israel? You sure don't see them fretting too much over it anymore. In fact, claiming we went in because they were attacking our allies is false because they had not attacked any allies since the early 1990's. How is this legit? I mean, eventually you can make up excuses, much like Bush has done, but the intelligent people remember the crap that was spoon fed to us since Korea about the necessity of war.

So we should only attack those that we will beat? I mean, plenty more countries have tyrannical government ten fold worse then Iraq (which still makes no sense why we chose there). If we were truly going after tyranny, we would have been in North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and the Sudan by now. However....we're not.

I am stunned you quoted the president there. It's a scare tactic. We are more likely to be injured or killed by our own countrymen then by another group of individuals that want to blow stuff up. Attacking an entire country in order to "prevent" attacks in our country by people not even associated with the country but with extremism is ludicrous.

Whatever feigned religion Saddam had, he didn't give power to them. I pose the real question. Is 9-11 revenge why we went after Saddam? Show me the tie to 9-11 and Saddam. If not 9-11 revenge then he must have been the most threatening leader in the world for us to act so premeptively. Did you believe Saddam was that threatening and why? Media? What purpose do you believe we went into Iraq for?

Bush speaks now for the importance of energy. I think he is laying the groudwork to raise the real issue. Is oil worth killing for, if it's in evil hands of terrorist? Not a good question around election time. Is it a coincidence that we invaded a coutry richest in our addiction, and the same old related companies are profeiting?

The vote in Iraq was a flop with petty turnout. America has a rich history of creating self serving govt's.

Democracy is a wonderful thing (even for us in a republic) but for people who are used to living under a dictator it will take time. It doesn't happen overnight.

I hope things do get better around the globe, because we are weaker with this war going on. This war that is mostly in the backround of our media.

North Korea is dangerous, China could be if they wanted to.

Democracy is not usually created by empiricsm or whatever you want to call what we are doing. Democracy is won by organized locals shucking off the oppresive gvt over them. What side are we on in that senario, if we don't leave after we did our job, destroying the current system? I don't expect it to work in our liftime - and be democratic freedom as we know it. For us to leave, the resources are too valuable to let them possibly waste in the hands of a corrupt gvt in Iraq. Or else we would be out already and just sending aid like everyone else. There will be no people who cover there women's skin, watching Britney Spears videos, I assure you.

agentwhale007. wrote: Plus Saddam turned Al-Qaeda and Osama away from hiding in Iraq after the first attack on the Trade Centers.

One of the bombers during the first WTC attack actually did take refuge in Iraq. His name was Abdul Rahman Yasin. Apparently, we found some documents in Saddam's hometown of Tikrit that showed he gave Yasin a place to stay and even a monthly salary.

Linus wrote: We do have a right to go in, we are protecting our allies.

So if we declare somebody an "ally" we have a "right" to invade other people?

We have a right to be there.. we started it we will end it.

Interesting logic.

We didn't force them to sign their own consitiution did we?

The constitution isn't signed yet, I believe, but yes - we ARE forcing them.  We killed bunch of people and said:  "Now establish a democracy".  That counts as forcing in my book.

I see that George Bush is not alone in still believing that Iraq was a good war to get into. The Tippmann forum is a bastion of misinformation perpetuated by nationalistic idealism.

Dune wrote: You are truly misguided by whatever uninformed opinions you let yourself get fooled by.

God Bless America.

No really, we need it.

Hey, nice marmot!

^ ^ ^ ^

Agreed

Reading some of this makes me wonder why I enlisted to defend some of you people.

Dune wrote: I don't consider it defending if you're in Iraq.

Hey man, Iraqis could have used boats and taked out Florida!!!!

Hey, nice marmot!

Just because we helped our allies doesn't make it the right thing to do. Israel is only an ally because they're not Islamic, and many of those public officials should be tried as war criminals as well. I refuse to stand behind a country like that, even if the president does.

Murdock wrote: because we are the only ones who reconise them as a sovergn nation...in some countries israel isnt even on the map because they arent reconised as a people for the fact that they are jewish, and all muslims are sworn to exterminate judism if they follow their faith at all

Also incorrect. Man, you're starting to scare me, or I'm convinced you are a lot younger than you make yourself out to be. Following the faith does not mean exterminate the Jews, that's radicalism. Palestinians are the state that is not recognized by most maps. I'm sure many Islamic countries refuse to acknowledge Israel as well, but they do have their own state, government, and military.

Dune wrote: I don't consider it defending if you're in Iraq.

Dune that is the most disgraceful thing i have ever heard. Not defending if your in Iraq my butt.  You act like ppl put there lives on the line for crap,  and even if you think they arent defending you, guess who they are defending. The poor, hungry, formerly suppressed ppl of iraq.  THose soldiers are dying because they knew the consiquences when they enlisted and they are fighting for someone helpless and someone that needs help more than you, and that is far more righteouss or holy than anything  you willever do.  Dont put down the people who fight not just for your warm, t.v. watching, public school attendent, rich little snob, tail, but for someone that needs it more.

awblah wrote: Dune wrote: I don't consider it defending if you're in Iraq.   Dune that is the most disgraceful thing i have ever heard. Not defending if your in Iraq my butt.  You act like ppl put there lives on the line for crap,  and even if you think they arent defending you, guess who they are defending. The poor, hungry, formerly suppressed ppl of iraq.  THose soldiers are dying because they knew the consiquences when they enlisted and they are fighting for someone helpless and someone that needs help more than you, and that is far more righteouss or holy than anything  you willever do.  Dont put down the people who fight not just for your warm, t.v. watching, public school attendent, rich little snob, tail, but for someone that needs it more.

You're misjudgement and rash guessing of my character makes me laugh. You want a simple answer? No, they aren't defending me, they are fighting someone else's war. My freedom is not at stake with or without Saddam in power, so we should not be there. Secondly, what do you know about me? You think I'm rich? You think I had it good? You think I don't put my life on the line? Well that's fine...keep guessing, and keep making yourself look stupid.

There are plenty more heros back here in the states, and not every soldier deserves that kind of recognition.

what, you think your not rich, you think you dont have it good. Let me ask you something.  Do you live in a mud hut? do you have more than one pair of shoes? Please, you are bill gates compared to half the ppl in Iraq. And you say i make myself look stupid.

Second of all, since when did i say anything about your freedom being at stake.  Did you even read what i wrote. wait let me quote

"they are fighting for someone helpless and someone that needs help more than you"

Did i say anything about anyone fighting for you, no.  And you say im rash.  Next time read what i say and come up with a better comeback

Linus wrote: How could it have been better planed? We kicked ass going in, they were down for the count in a matter of weeks, fastest military op in history. Strato, that doesn't change the fact that it WS a Sunni run government and he WAS a Sunni.

It does matter however that the governments actions werent religously based. I beleive almost every single federal official we have, and most state ones ae christian, does this mean we are simply a christian regime?

Also, fastest = Grenada

Murdock wrote: and all muslims are sworn to exterminate judism if they follow their faith at all

wow, someone needs to get informed. Try walking up to a muslim and saying that, or a theology professor.

Idiot.

I think the pot just called the kettle black.

Dune wrote: So what makes us the ones that has to fight for their freedom. It's Vietnam over again. We aren't the "world police." Unfortunately, many people actually think we are.

You still dont know what you are talking about. Dont you get it?  If no body played, in your words, the "world police" what would happen.  Lets have a history lesson shall we?

1.World War I, America joins WWI and breaks the stalemante in the trenches.

2.WWII America SIMALTANIOUSLY deafeats Nazi Germany and Japan.  Im not saying we did it ourselves. But think, hmmm D-day, uhh Iwo jima, e.t.c. i could go on

2. i dont feel like writing a ton so heres a list of things America did, not neccesarily won, but it was for the good side,  Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Panama, Desert storm.

Maybe you should have listened in school. 

"Vietnam all over again"  You know your right about that,  those thousands of american casualties, the Iraqi army winning.  wait i take it back, your not right, 1375 americans have died in combat compared to 58,000 who died or are STILL MIA in vietnam. thats not a lot of difference, only about a 56000 difference.  Like i said think before you write

Dune wrote: I think the pot just called the kettle black.

And the pot can't spell.

Hey, nice marmot!

Body count doesn't matter, it's still the same war. We can't be the police unless we go into every war-torn country that needs help. Unfortunately, this "helping people" excuse was only made when bush messed up on his first reasons to go in. I have studied up, and I know that no good came from Korea, Vietnam, and Somalia. Not for the good side, not for much good at all, just death.

That winning of hearts and minds crap doesn't work anymore. It's only used now because approval for the war is slipping. Iraq may have needed help, but it also needed to help itself, and if there was a threat to our people or there was a mass genocide taking place, then a REAL coalition should have entered, not just us, a few british guys, and a couple of japanese jeeps.

Dune wrote:  I have studied up, and I know that no good came from Korea, Vietnam, and Somalia. Not for the good side, not for much good at all, just death.

What did you study up in? "The Liberals guide to history"

You are a sad little man.  Please read what i say, i said things that america have done, not nessecarily won but for the good side. If you were president when these things happened, There would be no South Korea, ummm Vietnam would still be currently fought over. Im getting tired of writing.

If you're getting tired then stop, it certainly won't make the thread any less intelligent. I know it must kill a warmonger to hear how someone like me actually refuses to believe that "attempting to destroy communism" was worth all of those millions of lives for both side. Who says we are the good side? Who said we had to step into their civil wars? You? Your parents? Our unintelligent administrations that were actually scared of communism? I feel so much safer now that my uncles died in order to get our butts kicked by Korea and Vietnam.

Dune wrote: a REAL coalition should have entered, not just us, a few british guys, and a couple of japanese jeeps.

Fact Sheet: Iraqi War

agentwhale007. wrote: Right. And who is taking the brunt of the deaths, and spending the money for it all?

Oooo ooo, can I guess? I mean, our economy sucks, jobs are scarce, the unemployment rate is huge, and public education is turning into a joke. Hmmm...the united states??

Dune wrote: agentwhale007. wrote: Right. And who is taking the brunt of the deaths, and spending the money for it all? Oooo ooo, can I guess? I mean, our economy sucks, jobs are scarce, the unemployment rate is huge, and public education is turning into a joke. Hmmm...the united states??

Ding ding ding, We have a winner!

But its ok, im getting this out of the Liberals Guide to History.

I keep it on my shelf, next to my copy of the Homosexual Agenda.

Hey, nice marmot!

Dune wrote: If you're getting tired then stop, it certainly won't make the thread any less intelligent. I know it must kill a warmonger to hear how someone like me actually refuses to believe that "attempting to destroy communism" was worth all of those millions of lives for both side. Who says we are the good side? Who said we had to step into their civil wars? You? Your parents? Our unintelligent administrations that were actually scared of communism? I feel so much safer now that my uncles died in order to get our butts kicked by Korea and Vietnam.

All i have to say is wow.  You call me a warmonger? How ignorant could you be.  Lets be hypothetical.  You should take a walk up to heaven and talk to your uncles and the countless millions that have died for things THEY CARED ABOUT and say "i dont care that you died for the things you cared about."  Im sure they'd take that without a problem. *sarcasm* You would piss your pants before you got the courage to go into a battle like Vietnam or WWII.

"who says we are the good side"  Tell that to the people that died to make America a country. 

Dune wrote: Yes, you should pick up the latest edition of the atheist's guide to destroying morals, it's a good read this month.

Ive heard of it!

Its by the makers of "The REAL Reason the Greek/Roman Empires Fell" and "Schiavo The Abuser", right??

Hey, nice marmot!

Agree with awblah

Also the wonderful book "They have a BET, why don't we have a WET," man, it's exiciting.

I forgot, the book "I'm not a racist, but..."

You'll never put it down.

WET, that sounds good....equal rights and all right?

Id watch BET if they showed Sanford & Son

Dune wrote: Also the wonderful book "They have a BET, why don't we have a WET," man, it's exiciting.

I read that one after "Not Steve".

Anybody find it funny that calmness and common sence makes neo-cons so darn angry??

Hey, nice marmot!

Look dude, if you are really that ignorant and hate America that much, please feel free to move to Africa.Im sure you guys would fare well there.  Quit your whining please god quit your whining. You cant argue that you would want to live somewhere other than america.  And if you want to argue, please god move away.  Do you have any pride in where you are, or how well off you are to the rest of the world?

I love America, that's why I fight against neocons that try to make it a black and white issue. I would want to live in no other country; however, being a mindless robot like yourself makes me pity those that can't see beyond the end of their nose.

Don't start murdock, there is no reason to have a WET.

I find it funny that some of these people might look for these books. Get the book, "If you're Islam, your goal is to kill others." It'll open your eyes.

awblah wrote: Look dude, if you are really that ignorant and hate America that much, please feel free to move to Africa.Im sure you guys would fare well there.  Quit your whining please god quit your whining. You cant argue that you would want to live somewhere other than america.  And if you want to argue, please god move away.  Do you have any pride in where you are, or how well off you are to the rest of the world?

Hahahahaha.

Typical neo-con responce. Go move sum-wheer else ya commie!!

Yeah, You know what the great thing about America is? I can disagree with the president, and with you, and with anybody, and still live here.

Heck, I can burn the US flag if I want to and still live here.

Man, what a country!!

Hey, nice marmot!

agentwhale007. wrote: I keep it on my shelf, next to my copy of the Homosexual Agenda.

Heck, I'm re-reading that one right now.

Murdock wrote: not for long u cant if congress passes the anti flag burning thing thats going through right now

Oh I most certianly can, and if that passes, I will.

Hey, nice marmot!

Murdock wrote: not for long u cant if congress passes the anti flag burning thing thats going through right now

Didn't we just have a thread on flag-burning?

Clark Kent wrote: agentwhale007. wrote: I keep it on my shelf, next to my copy of the Homosexual Agenda. Heck, I'm re-reading that one right now.

That's because you checked it out from the library Hades works at and I've been waiting for you to return it for weeks. IT'S PAST DUE CLARK!!

Dune wrote: Clark Kent wrote: agentwhale007. wrote: I keep it on my shelf, next to my copy of the Homosexual Agenda. Heck, I'm re-reading that one right now. That's because you checked it out from the library Hades works at and I've been waiting for you to return it for weeks. IT'S PAST DUE CLARK!!

Watch out or they will use some Patriot Act ownage on you at that library.

Hey, nice marmot!

Yeah, You know what the great thing about America is? I can disagree with the president, and with you, and with anybody, and still live here.

Heck, I can burn the US flag if I want to and still live here.

Man, what a country!!

Agentwhale, thank you so much for making this response really easy, I mean dune is starting to think you should too. 

You just proved everything i have been saying.  You know what, this is a great country where ppl can disagree, and fight for what they like, and thats fine with me.  Guess what, Iraqis couldnt do that, neither could ppl living in communist Russia.  You really think your that openminded and that i'm some racist, antisemite, narrowminded? Your right being a communist country would be so much better.  Who needs rights? freedom? paintball?hell, everyone should just be killed  for disagreeing.