How many of these threads are we going to go through? Take the religious arguments elsewhere, please. The last thing we need is another bicker fest.

THis is what makes the forum fun....

I think

GhettoSmurf wrote: Not the god shown in Dan Brown's angels and demon either. Read taht book and teh Da VInci code look at all the church does. it should be a plain answer go choice #2

#1) Why don't you go back to school and learn to spell.

#2) Your obviously not to comfortable in your beliefs if your trying to force people to vote no

#3) This thread is a waste, we already have a thread dedicated to our disagreements.

How about this:

I believe I can prove - yes, PROVE - that god does not intervene in the known universe, or if he does, his interventions are immaterial.

I can't speak to any alleged afterlife, but as to today, god is irrelevant.

Clark Kent wrote: How about this: I believe I can prove - yes, PROVE - that god does not intervene in the known universe, or if he does, his interventions are immaterial.

God did say he would intervene very little. Basically letting the world run itself until he's had enough. So to some extent you are correct. Iguess you could consider the few times God intervenes as "Miralcles".

Clark Kent wrote: How about this: I believe I can prove - yes, PROVE - that god does not intervene in the known universe, or if he does, his interventions are immaterial. I can't speak to any alleged afterlife, but as to today, god is irrelevant.

That's your opinion.. To many of us God is very relevant.

shiftykyle101 wrote: where do you think you and everyone you know and everything you see came from?..

My mother's uterus?

(Not everybody, just me, I mean)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I came through regular childbirth, into the regular world, dominated by chance, coincidence, accident, and science.

fractus.scud wrote: God did say he would intervene very little. Basically letting the world run itself until he's had enough. So to some extent you are correct. Iguess you could consider the few times God intervenes as "Miralcles".

Therein lies the heart of my proof.

The world operates according to scientifically predictable rules.  In order for god to intervene, he would have to cause something to happen contrary to these predictable rules (it isn't much of a miracle to make the sun come up in the morning).

Things happen that are apparently contrary to our scientific understanding of the world only a tiny fraction of the time.  The technical/statistical/scientific term for this is that there is not a statistically significant deviation.

Therefore, any interventions that god makes are either redundant (intervening to make something happen that was going to happen anyway), or these interventions are so rare that their impact on the world is statistically insignificant.

Therefore, as a mathematical matter, god is statistically insignificant.

I'd like to quote Einstien (sp)

"Religion without science is blind, science without religion is lame"

I might have gotten it backwards, but for you vocabulary challenged folks by lame he means cannot walk.

Like God actually took the time out of his day to help Curt Schilling pitch the gamewinner in the World Series, but he still avoids helping the millions of poor, sick, and dying in the world.

Ehh, maybe god's a Red Sox fan.

fractus.scud wrote: I'd like to quote Einstien (sp) "Religion without science is blind, science without religion is lame" I might have gotten it backwards, but for you vocabulary challenged folks by lame he means cannot walk.

Wanna trade Einstein quotes?  Ok:

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation...   Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms."

[Albert Einstein, obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955]

stratoaxe wrote: Scientific statistics fail even in science.

This statement makes absolutely no sense.  It is a complete oxymoron.

Science IS statistics, and statistics are science.

DBibeau855 wrote: Saying god is insignificant is silly. "Physics is the language of god"

Certainly, god could have set up the system in the first place.  My point is simply that putting aside origins or afterlives - as to the universe as we know it, god has no statistically significant impact.

Simply as a matter of science.

Dune wrote: Like God actually took the time out of his day to help Curt Schilling pitch the gamewinner in the World Series, but he still avoids helping the millions of poor, sick, and dying in the world. Ehh, maybe god's a Red Sox fan.

Once again, God said he would let us basically run the world. Sick children dieing is the fault of their corrupt country, not his. Today in church the Gospel was about burdens, and Jesus told us our life would be a burden, God never said the Earth would be a happy slappy place where nothing went wrong.

DBibeau855 wrote: God blesses people with gifts. The poor, the sick and dying from disease and malnutrition come from the evil of men.

What Dune said.  This is too convenient.

When good things happen, god gets all the credit.  When bad things happen, god gets no blame.  That don't seem right.

fractus.scud wrote: Once again, God said he would let us basically run the world. Sick children dieing is the fault of their corrupt country, not his. Today in church the Gospel was about burdens, and Jesus told us our life would be a burden, God never said the Earth would be a happy slappy place where nothing went wrong.

So you agree with me that god is insignificant today?

You sound like a deist...

DBibeau855 wrote: You all claim how the US inslaves countries through business and debt,.

That would be the smittys - not the rest of us.

Im not saying he's insignificant, just not to blame for every wrong thing that happens. God still plays an important role in Christians lives, I know he plays a great role in mine. Never cal me a Deist. I am a Catholic.

God doesn't play dice.
-- Albert Einstein

Obviously, Mr. Einstien, one of the smartest humans ever, believes in God.

Actually, a large percentage of science is theory, for which there is no statistic. Statistics are a part of science, but where science and religion disagree are typically on matters for which statistics are useless. There are no statistics for the creation of the world. So people argue over that. And that quote was a small part of the statement I was making. You said science proves that God is irrelevant-I said science has little to do with personal beliefs.

fractus.scud wrote: God doesn't play dice. -- Albert Einstein Obviously, Mr. Einstien, one of the smartest humans ever, believes in God.

No doubt that Mr. E believed in god - he was jewish.

But that quote relates to quantum theory, BTW, not religion.

Dune wrote: So a 4 year old boy that is killed on the street has a purpose? He's "needed" somewhere. His life was only to spend a few innocent years in the world to only be torn from it and from his family? He is paying for society's woes? Nope, it's because there is nothing in control except for ourselves.

What does this have to do with anything, God didn't put him on Earth to get killed. Either, he got himself killed, or someone was a bad driver. Unless you have read the Bible with an open mind I can't explain to you about how God intervenes with us on Earth.

So how does god intervene then? Or is he just used as a scapegoat, given thanks, and then overlooked with the bad stuff starts to happen.

Just because I watched Curt Schilling claim that god helped him pitch the game. Very amusing.

If you insist that there is a god that is responsible for the good things, he better damn well be responsible for the bad things. Or else it just proves to me that there is nothing.

Dune wrote: But god saw it fit to help the Red Sox win? Hardly.

Why do you say he helped?

Dune wrote: So how does god intervene then? Or is he just used as a scapegoat, given thanks, and then overlooked with the bad stuff starts to happen.

God interevenes mostly in people personal lives, not in mass amounts of people at once, nor will he stop a landslide that will hit a village which was "smartly" built of shcks on a loose slope. People blame God for things that they, or some other person, deserves the blame. Lets face it, no one wants to be blamed for anything. So they blame God.

DBibeau855 wrote: We generaly dont see when he does intervene.

My point exactly.

So if we can't see, hear, feel, or otherwise know whether god has intervened, how can intervention be signficant?

Either god doesn't intervene, or his interventions are useless.

fractus.scud wrote: God interevenes mostly in people personal lives,

Examples, please...

Dune wrote: I can also tell you that you may have convinced yourself that you have a relationship, but what good is he if he doesn't help those that need it. How is he a leader, a thing to be obeyed and followed, if he acts like the lazy step-father that does nothing to protect his children.

You know I have actually considered this myself. But after a lot of "soul searching" I have concluded to myself that I truely do have a relationship with God and you best not tell me I don't ever again.

Well so are mine, and considering we both believe in God and Jesus, I see no reason why we should argue, agree?

and btw, you have no idea how much work I do in my church and it's schools, community outreach stuff etc. The instrument in my sig is my new friend.

fractus.scud wrote: Dune wrote: I can also tell you that you may have convinced yourself that you have a relationship, but what good is he if he doesn't help those that need it. How is he a leader, a thing to be obeyed and followed, if he acts like the lazy step-father that does nothing to protect his children. You know I have actually considered this myself. But after a lot of "soul searching" I have concluded to myself that I truely do have a relationship with God and you best not tell me I don't ever again.

Why, will you condem me to hell? Burn me with your eyes? Or pray that your god inflicts me with the same diseases he allows the rest of the world to be plagued by?

DBibeau855 wrote: †Sniper† wrote: fractus.scud wrote: Dune, I would never pray to God that you suffer or anything like that, what kind of a person do you think I am? It's not up to Humans who should burn in hell or any of that stuff. Doing so would be a sin. So the death penalty is obviously wrong. zing... Religiously speaking. The bible says do not kill. But it also says a whole lot of other stuff. Im not touching this with a ten foot pole.

That's true, we had to hate the homosexuals because that's what the bible said, but we skipped over the not killing part. This picking and choosing crap makes me feel a little hopeless.

DBibeau855 wrote: Thats what religion has done with sooo many topics. You arent supposed to do things like each shelfish, pork, meat on fridays. Lots of stuff. But some members of the catholic church have no problem raping a 6 year old.

You and I can occaisionally find something to agree on.

DBibeau855 wrote: Thats what religion has done with sooo many topics. You arent supposed to do things like each shelfish, pork, meat on fridays. Lots of stuff. But some members of the catholic church have no problem raping a 6 year old.

Yeah well since some Priests have raped some little kids the ENTIRE catholic church is now a disgrace? Yeah, you protestants aren't perfect either. So basically, since some person from Russia robbed a store, now all russians are bad. That's basically what your saying. The priests who raped those kids are a disgrace, we all know it, and so does God. The whole meat thing is actually somthing Jesus started. Remember numb nut?

There seems to be alot of people who like to use the acts of so-called "priests" to condemn Christianity. Just because padre pervert has a thing for little boys is no reflection on God. I'm Protestant, so this doesn't really affect me, but it does some of you.

Also, not to start another argument, but whoever said that two men marrying isn't against Christianity is wrong. The Bible is clearly against homosexuality. I'm not a homophobe, I know a couple of **edited** people that are really nice. It's simply against my beliefs. And also on that subject, God doesn't hate homosexuals-or anybody for that matter.

*edit* Clark, allow me to prove that God isn't insignificant. Christianity has played a huge role since Constantine. The entire world has been influenced by It.

Ohhh ok lol. But yeah, anyone who lets the priests get away with those acts are just as guilty IMO, most were fined and thrown in jail though I believe, and then the church and the diocese gets sued and then because of that one so-called priest, a little kid is hurt, the trust between the clergy and the parishioners is hurt, and the diocese is in millions of debt.

I believe that people who have molested a large number of children should be castrated. Period. I have no tolerance for that.

DBibeau855 wrote: Right now, the vatican asets are set to about 54.6 BILLION! There isnt much debt they can get into. Yes, they are just as guilty, they have been moving preists around for years. Our current pope was basicaly head of the modern day inquestion. He did this a lot.

The Vatican may be rich, but the individuall parishes who had these priests arent