London explosions
Printed From: Tippmann Paintball
Category: News And Views
Forum Name: Thoughts and Opinions
Forum Description: Got something you need to say?
URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=137380
Printed Date: 27 May 2026 at 12:19am
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Topic: London explosions
Posted By: reifidom
Subject: London explosions
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:26am
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http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/07/london.tube/index.html - CNN
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/07/AR2005070700221_pf.html - Washington Post Explosions in the London Underground and at least one bus. I have two friends in the London area and they say the damage is much more severe than CNN reports. One friend says that there was more than one bus and he doesn't see how anybody could have survived the damage done to them. I know how rumors fly during times like this, so it's hard to know what to make of it. ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: ^Pirate^
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:44am
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I saw that when I got on
earlier, at what point do our mods(the government) crack down on these
terrorists.(Spammers, and others) EDIT: I made it into an IQ friendly version... ------------- 
It aint about black or white becuz we human I hope we see the light before it's ruined My ghetto gospel |
Posted By: Blackbetty
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:44am
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well i wish they would get the bloody phones fixed so i can get on to my girlfriend whose on holidays there!
------------- Buy a corvette and show the world that you know absolutely nothing about cars. The new VW convertible beatle..... now you can actaully hear people call u and idiot. |
Posted By: redneckdeerhunt
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 8:11am
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yeah i heard about that its pretty bad i wish all ove it would stop ------------- i love to hunt and lite things on fire 98 custom smartparts progressive double trigger lapco bishot pen spring mod 20 oz rocket cock dye invision mask |
Posted By: TheSpookyKids87
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 8:14am
| I've been watching CNN for quite a while now trying to get details. |
Posted By: reifidom
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 8:17am
It's tough because every website and news agency says something different. My friends in London hear different things. I think it's too soon to get a clear picture, but it's hard to not watch and hope this is done. -------------
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TheSpookyKids87 wrote:Posted By: pbdude985
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 8:21am
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wow thats scary , i just put on cnn now. Thankfully no one i know is in London now. ------------- 
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Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 8:40am
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Well, on the brigth side, it will shut up the anti-war doves over at the G-8
Down side, of course, is people died.. ------------- 
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Posted By: Jim Paint
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 9:06am
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WHen I woke up this morning I heard it on the radio. I was still mostly asleep, but I though some lady said she was almost hit by a flying part of a bus. ------------- 
saepe fidelis |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 9:21am
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(On a lighter note)
I was sleeping and dreaming, and I kept hearing this kid complaining about his parents not letting him go to a party. And I could not figure out where it came from. I woke up and it was my radio! Anyway, down with terrorist...  -------------
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Posted By: pimptastik
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 9:31am
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just got up and its already on the news ------------- <no ginormous sigs please> |
Posted By: blandpart2
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 9:42am
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Posted By: Knight of Fire
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 10:45am
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You aren't the only one either. Course It was done by anti Western powers terrorist, Too cordinated to be an over night plan to strike cuz London won the right to hold the 2012 olympics, So i have no idea why some news groups are insisting that. Obviously they Thought if they pulled something like what happened in madrid, Britain would leave iraq and Afghanistan and the middle east alone, but they probally though, IMHO, I think they just ticked off a wasp nest......... ------------- Team Wardog -team captain |
Posted By: GhettoSmurf
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 10:54am
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Thats too bad. Now I wonder what the UK is gonna do, if anything MAJOR. on a happier note all i'm wearing is underarmor spandex shorts just got out of XC ------------- Dan Long Spyder Electra DX 
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Posted By: Panda Man
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 12:10pm
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Why England? They were protesting the War? I think England
is ganna send thousands of Troops to help out.(well... hopefully)
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Posted By: oreomann33
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 12:15pm
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My mom just told me this morning. Sucks. ------------- 
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Posted By: Panda Man
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 12:17pm
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The french are probably happy right now.
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Posted By: PB MISFIT
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 12:20pm
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 12:22pm
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Wow, theres some pretty disrespectful posts in here....amazing guys.
Anyway, I was at a friends house last night and dceided to listen to the radio when I was driving home, rather than my music, and I heard about this....insanity. |
Posted By: Rico's Revenge
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 12:25pm
Something from the Bootlegger game... alot of the player are from the UK and Europe. Most blame Bush... go figure. |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 12:28pm
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That's funny-I dreamed about Tony Blaire and buildings blowing up, and I had left my radio on over night. That happens to me alot... Really sad, but I hope this wakes up the Europeans a little... ------------- 
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Posted By: Hitman
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 12:30pm
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I have several friends are from England. Someone I knew might have been on one of those busses or trains.
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 12:34pm
Let's hope not |
Posted By: reifidom
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 12:39pm
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My friend's mother works very close to where the bus was detonated. She could have been on it except for the timing. She's uninjured thankfully. -------------
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Posted By: hashi2008
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 12:40pm
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Terrorists make me want to grab my shotgun and rifle and get a ticket to Afghanistan to kick some terrorist ass. On the other hand, the terrorists want people to get angry and others to be afraid. I'm glad that London has a good responce team to attacks like that. My prayers are with the people of London. ------------- Founder of the "Forumers Against the Ugly Woman Sigs" also known as FAUWS. |
Posted By: hwayhzrd
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 12:48pm
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What I want to know is this ... what will it take for terorism to be truly taken seriously, instead of just lip service? Why are we playing cops & robbers in Iraq and accomplishing nothing real? Our Special Forces guys should have one mission and priority: the hunting and killing of these dirtbags. Nice and clean if possible, with the press out of the loop. ------------- If I flee, kill me If I die, avenge me |
Posted By: PB MISFIT
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 12:56pm
Really. I mean, sending "Nick and Jessica" out to visit our troops is just ridiculous. Let them do their jobs, Christ. |
Posted By: lester98c
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 1:32pm
| wow that is 1 mangaled bus lets get the dirtbags that are resosabel for this |
Posted By: cdacda13
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 2:13pm
| I feel bad for all the english. |
Posted By: BradNowell
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 2:23pm
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that sucks
------------- "When I travel through mountainous areas or places of questionable hillbilly population, I usually keep a gun in the vehicle" -Da Hui |
Posted By: A-5 08
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 2:59pm
Well the thing is just that, we ARE playing cops and robbers, trying to clean up a mess we started. No weapons of Mass Destruction, not nothing were just stoking the fire by being an occupying force. |
Posted By: Pariel
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 3:20pm
I agree 100%. I'm sick of the limitations people try to put on our military to keep it civilized(not to say they aren't important, but they aren't important everywhere). I'm sure their opinion might shift if they lived in Iraq, and spent every day worrying about avoiding mortars and bombs that were being thrown around. That said, I know quite a few reporters who are really very brave, and who've been to Iraq/Afghanistan, and done some pretty crazy stuff. They ain't all bad.
Yeah, really. Personally, I think that NYPD's response to stuff like that is makes them far less annoying, although it's a total waste of resources. Next time, tie 'em up, and take George Carlin's idea of making a state into a prison...and turn it into a place full of protesters. I'm fine with protesting-just don't be busy making the day a headache for everyone else. Most of the time, stuff like that becomes a big pain in the butt. Write it out, folks. |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 3:37pm
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Pure and simple. Its politics. Polititions are attacking the intleigence comunity. Sound familiar? Clinton crippled the inteligence comunity.
Using the dark arts of interogation are call dark for a reason. Because sometimes, you need to scare your prisoner to the brink, and thats not always pretty, you cannot ride a white horse if you work in inteligence. And what do we do, we put our inteligence operatives in jail for doing what we told them to do. Politicians are attacking the war effort as if they werent attacked on 9/11. This war has become so polarized by the political partys its deplorable. We need to hunt down terrorists and kill them. This will REQUIRE terrifying interogations and we dont need all these libral civil rights group fighting for terrorist rights. This may sound like the rhetoric or some US neocon. But you know what? This is how the inteligence comunity has conducted itself for years. In vietnam, an operative would walk up to a prisoner tied and bound and say, "If you dont tell me what i want to know, im going to cut your hands off." This is the nature of the inteligence comunity, they have done this the world over, the british inteligence comunity is far far worse. Like vietnam the politicians have jumped on this cause effectivly tieing one hand behind our backs. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors"> 
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Posted By: Predatorr
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 3:47pm
| did anybody see the bus? The double decker doesnt even look like a bus when you first see it. But i havent seen the subway, Terrible stuff |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 3:49pm
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Once you have seen one burned up buss you seen them all. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: Badsmitty
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 4:22pm
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If England really wants to be like us, they should form a halfassed coalition and invade Wales. |
Posted By: goodsmitty
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 4:39pm
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Proof positive that Bush's policies work, ladies and gents. By leaving al-Qaeda alive and well in Afghanistan, and attacking a non-threat in Iraq, we have dismantled terrorism. They are on their knees. We are fightin' them where they live (London, evidently), not where we live. Thank God for our war president. God Bless der Bushe. ------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Posted By: pb125
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 5:38pm
Dude, shut up. We don't need " on a lighter note." ------------- 
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Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 5:40pm
| Clinton hurt our intelligence? How is that? I'm pretty sure we hurt ourselves long before Clinton got into office. |
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 5:42pm
Oil I thought you'd know that Hway. |
Posted By: Dune
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 5:46pm
| Db, you apparantly know nothing about human rights, regardless of who those humans are. Lowering ourselves to their level makes us no better than the terrorists. It is also possible that by worrying about our own country, our domestic problems, and quit trying to be an empire we wouldn't have so many enemies trying to hurt us. |
Posted By: Ejp414
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 6:12pm
A post of mine copied from the other thread, where I had copied it to from my blogthing.
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Posted By: Ejp414
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 6:13pm
Um, no. ------------- __________________ __________________ |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:02pm
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Doesn't matter what happens in the World, to who, many here will never understand that this "war" is a War of Cultures, between the West, who values life and liberty, and tries to avoid war, and a radical Islamic movement who see all infidels the "non-believers" civilian or military as legitimate targets in their "Jihad", and a true path to paradise, and see war against the infidel as a true Islamic Duty and fight wars based on thier cultural belief and at the behest of thier religious leaders.
2000years and the only thing that has changed in the Islamic world is the enemy and the method of "Jihad", we here in the west are targets, those in thier world who do not believe thier way are targets (ie the Eygytian Diplomat executed, the beheadings, the intimidation of thier own peoples)and are just a legitimate a target as a western infidel. For those who still believe we need to stick our heads in a hole, say all the touchy feely sayings, blame Bush for the whole problem, you will never understand even after the next attack, wherever and we can be assured whenever the "Jihad" against the west sees the next opertunity. Hey EJP if we went to war for "oil" where are the rows of tankers loaded to the brime with "confiscated" Iraqi oil, lined up at our ports, we should be tellin OPEC to pound sand we now have our own by the lefts logic, and OPECs supply/demand of $61.00 a barrel, ha.......... PS Sill no condemnation of the attacks from the Islamic Religious Leaders here in the west, and remmember "logistics" someone has to supply the money, safe houses, infastructure and supply of weapons and material, for these cells to operate in the west.... BTW Dune...these "Jihads" against the west have happened since the Crusades, long, long, long before American involvement or "empire building"(must of been a English Prince "George Bush" in the Crusades, need to keep the Bush tie on the wars no matter what), and Islam themselves have embarked on wars of aggression across thier world for centuries, and have invaded western europe numerous times, so it is not just America's "empire" building, it is a cultural and religious belief of these people, that the "infidel" is the enemy and is a legitamate target military or civilian for death in thier culture, and at the behest of thier Religious Leaders. ------------- 
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Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:08pm
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I say our Special Forces should be held to no international law besides no outright killing of civilians.
That means no political boundries. If we find out of a terrorist inside a country, get your ass in there, shoot the bastard in the head and leave. If that country gets pissed go "Hey, are you saying you're harboring terrorist?" It's really that simple. And it is black and white. These guys don't deserve to live. It's easy to kill defensless women and children, why not fight people that can actually defend themselves... -------------
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:14pm
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Believe me, the SAS is already at work in England, taking care of bussiness. And English law, and free press concerns are not an issue on thier handling of "problems". -------------
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Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:17pm
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Ya, I gurantee the SAS is sweeping known terrorist out right now, even if they had nothing to do with today.
I say, if you are a known terrorist, you shouldn't live past tomoroow at midnight... -------------
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:21pm
Are you kidding me? Wow Iraq had no connection to september 11th what-so-ever. Iraq was not a threat to the U.S, and it never, ever claimed to be. You honestly beleive that politics is all about "liberating the oppressed"? Heck no, fuel the economy, and for that we need oil. Now we're just there to mop up what we made a mess of I know why you wont beleive it, since Fox news says it's all about the terrorists in Iraq. |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:24pm
Civil rights? Civil rights has no place in an inteligence interogation. Stop being naive. In an interogation.. theyre intitled to nothing. You cannot ride a white horse in the inteligence comunity. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: fractus.scud
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:26pm
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Choopie, you say there are no terrorists in Iraq, there never were etc. Well Iv'e got news for you, there are, and there were before we ever went in. Saddam saw no issues with letting terrorists hang around Iraq, theres proof he did. He massacres thousands of innocent men, women, and children, his sons freely raped women than killed them, and he certainly did nothing to stop any of it. Now whos in Iraq now?, Terrorists who are there to take over the country, they weren't there before, they aren't fighting for Iraq, they are trying to make us leave so they can take power. Any one saying the infedels are just people trying to get us to leave their countries are just ignorant. The infedels have probably killed more Iraqi citizens than anything else. Ive talked to at least 10 people that have been there, they know whats happening. And give up the "we went for oil" crap, that was just one of the democrats crappy arguments against Bush. We didn't go there for oil. Get it through your think heads. ------------- 
Benny go home! |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:26pm
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Dune, our constiution only gurantees equal rights ot CITIZENS of the U.S....
I say if we believe a terrorist has intel we want/need to stop something, we should be allowed to do anything we want for that info... Israel does and they benefit greatly from it. -------------
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Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:28pm
This war is not about oil. The oil is going to korea and china. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:30pm
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Choppie911, you need to read the 2002 Congressional Resolution on Military Action against Iraq, out lines the reasons for the war, and even the resident Democrats at the time (again another cases of selective memory on the Democrats part) assisted in the writting and all the usual suspects who now berate Bush, said the same as Bush in the Resolution.
And there will be an accounting for public consumption on the whole war, once the issue is settled and security concerns are resolved, just as the initial WW2, Korea, Vietnam issues so veiled at the time are now comman knowledge. -------------
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Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:33pm
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Choopie, tell me, if it was about oil, why are we STILL over $2 per gallon?
Explain that one. -------------
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Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:33pm
The isreali Shin Beth is one of the best inteligence agencies in the world. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:33pm
Don't get me wrong, I KNOW Saddam deserved to go down, he had a terrible government. My friends dad grew up in Iraq, and watched his brother get shot. He had to escape the country and move to canada because they weren't legally aloud to leave. But if you honestly beleive that oil was not a factor...wow I know there was terrorists there, but Bush seemed to beleive they were a threat to the U.S. Can you tell me when that was the case? It wasn't, it was convienient for him to link Iraq and Afghanistan, cause Saddam tried to kill his daddy. It's unfinished business, and it's politics. You're not supposed to know the whole story, and you probably won't like it either way. |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:35pm
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As far as im concerned, if they are going to try and assasinated the leader of another country during talks.. Im not going to complain that he was deposed. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: Hella Cool
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:35pm
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To OS and Linus (Happy couple): Stop countering the "we invaded for
oil" argument with "well, why we have a ton of oil?" Just because it
didn't work doesn't mean that wasn't our intent. Linus, I'm fine
with your our soldiers going into other countries thing, if you think
that other countries armies should be free to come into our country.
To DB: On interrogation, I think there should be rights for the POWs. I don't want to be part of a country that burns prisoners to death or starves them to death. Let's not be barbarians like the terrorists. We are the civilized part of the world, ask Tony Blair, and we should lead by example. To EJP: Non-violence works wonders in some situations. This is not one of them. We need to be violent with the ones with the ones who attacked us (terrorists) and also stop attacking unrelatd countries and giving the terrorists more reason to attack us. |
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:36pm
| Fine, I'll submit, I wont argue with those influenced by the american media. I need my history teacher on here, he pwns my face with knowledge in this stuff. |
Posted By: fractus.scud
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:36pm
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Choopie, after the terrorists finsihed off Iraq where would they have gone next, Isreal, the US? who knows. But when countries become full of terrorists, or even run by them they spread. Look at Afghanistan a few years ago, it was flooded with terrorists and run by them, and what happen, Osama who was hiding there planned an attack on us and unfortunately was extremely successful. Even Clinton tried to stop Saddam but didn't. -------------
Benny go home! |
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:38pm
Hey, I'm not disagreeing with that. I hate saddam as much as the next guy, beleive me. We both agree that terrorists = scum, and we're glad saddam, and his fascist regime are gone. Our differences are not with who should go down, our differences are in our motives behind the scenes. |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:40pm
Well i hate to tell you, but we have been using some very very disturbing practices as far as interogation is concerned. And we have been doing it for decades. Electro Shock Cutting Bleeding Pain Sleep Deprovation Water Matches Cigeretes Fingernails Amputation Chemicles Ect ect. We have proffesionals whos soul job is to dispence pain. The man on the ground that gets things done, thats what keeps our inteligence machine running. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: hwayhzrd
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:41pm
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No terrorists in Iraq? Are we
forgetting the camps we found complete with Sarin cannisters? How soon
we forget, or are we now completely snowed by CNN?
No, I was never a fan of the Iraq operation, I freely admit that. All we hear are how we are the "Great Satan". Satan, eh? Well, kiddies, if you want Hellfire, I say we give it to them ... IN SPADES. I don't want civilians killed. However, we seem to be the only country that DIDN'T learn from Vietnam. That friendly hooch just may hide an entranceway for the tunnels the Bad Guys are using, and in the modern climate, it's even more true. There are two ways to stop terrorism (thought there is virtually no way to EVER completely eradicate it):
You cannot negotiate with them. You
cannot make deals with them. You don't barter with cancer ... you
destroy it, plain, pure, simple.
Now is the time to grow some sack and do what MUST BE DONE. If these incidents go unanswered, it will only get WORSE. The Isrealis have it right, and the sooner we learn from them, the better off we will all be. Forget full scale troop mobilizations ... they have gone the way of the dodo bird. it is as archaic as fighting as the 18th century miliraries did ... line up, fire, next wave does the same until everyone is dead or has surrendered. We have to be smart, quick, stealthy and surgical. We have the capability ... do we have the guts? I don't care HOW dirty we have to get ... take the leashes off of the Dogs of War and let them do their JOB. Nicities be DAMNED. God, I hope the politicians get it right this time. |
Posted By: Hella Cool
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:43pm
| DB: Sleep depravation and burning to death are on different ends of the spectrum. |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:44pm
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No one is burning anyone to death. Inteligence operatives are tough to burn the inner forarm, the neck and the top of the hands to extrace information. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:45pm
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Where does the statement no terrorists in Iraq keep coming from? We know they're there, just no WMD's. You dont need WMD's to blow the crap out of a schoolbus.
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Posted By: Hella Cool
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:48pm
| DB: When I wrote the original, I was thinking of when our guys in Iraq got burned and I don't want us to be like that. Most from your list were ok, but I just want there to be limits, thats all I'm saying. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:51pm
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LOGISTICS, any nation state or leader that harbors or assists the terror infastructure to train, develope, resupply, and funds will be over time creating a true and viable "threat" to the west. Iraq if left alone in creating a logistical support infastructure to build a terror network of well trained, well supplied, proxy army, armed with weapons that may have been in developement or aquired would eventually been a true threat to the west, be it months, years, decades, someone would have flet the wrathe of our neglect, and inaction in the matter.
The following is the wording of the statement that Neville Chamberlain waved when he stepped off the plane after the conference in Berlin had ended on 30 September, 1938. "We, the German Führer and Chancellor, and the British Prime Minister, have had a further meeting today and are agreed in recognizing that the question of Anglo-German relations is of the first importance for two countries and for Europe. "We regard the agreement signed last night and the Anglo-German Naval Agreement as symbolic of the desire of our two peoples never to go to war with one another again. "We are resolved that the method of consultation shall be the method adopted to deal with any other questions that may concern our two countries, and we are determined to continue our efforts to remove possible sources of difference, and thus to contribute to assure the peace of Europe." (note;Neville Chamberlain read this statement after a 1938 meeting with Adolf Hitler, again seen as no threat to the world or America at the time...1938..6 years and +/-30million world deaths later.....hopefully lesson learned) Neville Chamberlain (British Prime Minister 1938)read this statement to a cheering crowd in front of 10 Downing St. and said; "My good friends this is the second time in our history that there has come back from Germany to Downing Street peace with honor. I believe it is peace in our time." (note; Lesson learned there.....Appeasement with a tyrant leads to more tyranny for the tyrant learns not to fear the appeaser and becomes more emboldened with each appeasement attempt.) -------------
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:55pm
Yeah, and what the crap was with the Germans being allowed to re-occupy the Rhine Land? That was specificly against the agreement, and BAM, no-one moved to stop them. |
Posted By: hwayhzrd
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 8:03pm
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It's amazing how many people are going
to semantics because nothing in the facts and historical records that
support their "beliefs".
Passivity does nothing but embolden the aggressor. Will we never learn from history? |
Posted By: Hades
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 8:07pm
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Cant we all just get along? ------------- 
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 8:09pm
I hope so, for the good of everyone everywhere, I hope so. |
Posted By: 636andy636
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 8:23pm
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lond0wn3d
well I can see people geting agry by what I just sayed... see yah! if terorists realy want to make a dent in popuation they should hit vegas, people everywere, if you think abut it its a grt place yes i am high |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 10:16pm
Not to get picky, but I don't believe we found any Sarin in any terrorist camps. There was a roadside bomb exploded that had trace amounts of Sarin in the shell, but that apparantly leftover in that shell from 1990, and not an intentional chemical attack. The terrorist camp we found was a separate matter...
Those are ways to deal with TERRORISTS, not terrorISM. Entirely different problem. TerrorISM is much more insidious, becase it keeps breeding more terrorISTS. Most people agree on how to deal with current terrorists (kill them), but the more imporant issue is how to stop future terrorists from coming to be. And there your two approaches fail. Anybody who will blow himself up for kicks and giggles will not be scared out of fighting - on the contrary, brutality simply breeds more terrorists. The uglier we get, the MORE terrorists we will have to kill, and that will only make our job harder. We need to remove the reasons that people become terrorists to begin with, and that is much more difficult.
Do they? They have been at war non-stop for sixty years. I don't call that success.
The problem is that when we forget the niceties, we start accidentally bombing schools and weddings. We start tortuting people that turn out to be innocent (oops).
Those "niceties" aren't there JUST because we want to be polite - they are there for simple strategic reasons. All-out indiscriminate brutality would be the fastest way to lose this war.
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 10:26pm
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While most people can agree that the appeasement of Hitler was a mistake, any decent history lesson should contain comparatives. The Treaty of Lausanne, for instance, might be considered a case of successful appeasement. Similarly, the Jim Crow laws (as ugly as they were) that the federal government allowed to exist in the South after the Civil War arguably prevented a second civil war immediately upon the conclusion of the first. Appeasement has also been used successfully by governments threatened by revolution throughout the ages - throw the masses a bone, and they won't storm the Bastille. Revolutionaries, on the other hand, thrive on crisis maximation. Arguably, our relationship with Saudi Arabia and Pakistan (and others) is nothing but the appeasement of tyrants. Granted that Chamberlain's appeasement was a spectacular failure - that doesn't make an absolute claim like "appeasement is always bad" any less absurd. History just isn't that clean. |
Posted By: Knight of Fire
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 10:26pm
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You know, This resolve me more into thinking in joining the military.....
Theres 1 rule when making deals with terrorist. You don't make deals with Terrorist..... That is the one and only rule..... You Think when they attacked on 9/11 they just wanted the U.S. to respect them... no they didn't they Want to Kill or convert every last one of us... The Consider all of Europe and USA and Canada as satans minions, They now consider Christians and jews, Granted not all Muslims are like that, but alot in the middle easst have been brain washed into believeing this way, into thinking that all of us westerners should be killed... They don't care who they kill no matter what they belive in, But sure go ahead and make peace with them, Not my fault when you find a dagger stuck in your back by the same terrorist you made a "peace Deal" with. I on the other hand rather be defending my country, and making sure they don't get a chance to attack our country. ------------- Team Wardog -team captain |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 10:31pm
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Ok - this absolutist macho thinking is ridiculous. There are times when bargaining with terrorists is exactly the right thing to do, as unpleasant as it is. Any statement to the contrary is just unrealistic. The world isn't that black and white. The IRA violence has essentially abated. Did the English kill all the terrorists? Or were there perhaps some negotiated settlements? Sri Lanka now has a 3-year ceasefire in their civil war, after negotiating with terrorists. There is a good chance this will become permanent. Ruling out negotiation is great for bolstering morale when you can clearly win by annihilation. But sometimes you actually DO have to negotiate if you want anything other than another 100-year war. |
Posted By: †Sniper†
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 10:37pm
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Yes clark and a failed case of appeasement would be world war II. edit: Nevermind I think you mentiond that when you said chamberlain. |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 10:45pm
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Yes yes, negotiations with terrorists have worked in the past. But these terrorists have no demands, they just want to kill. So we are going to take it to their doorstep harder and faster than they could ever imagine. We are putting a strangle hold on their assets. Its going to take time, but i see the US and britain killing the Ayatolas. They will have no where to run, no one will want them, they will be branded, marked. A stigma on them as such no one will take them in and they will be turned away into the cold. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 10:49pm
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Since when in war are there "niceties". Total war is just that, total war, you fight the armies of the enemy, and you destroy his ability to make war.
Not only did we destroy German and Japanese Armies on the field, and thier navies on the seas, we destroyed thier ability to wage war by bombing thier cities, industries, communications, and transportation networks, and civilian casualties were in the thousands and our media of the time saw it as a means to an end, not American Atrocities towards civilians. We destroy the terror networks infastructure and popular support by fear or choice, of the local peoples, we win the war, and even though we have "smart" weapons, civilians will continue, and will allways be victims of war. Another victory on terror history Lesson, In the 1970's and 80's Western Europe had many "Red" terror factions (Red Brigade, Bader-Manhoff, etc) running around, bombing, kidnapping, murder, robery, etc, all supported logistically by the Soviets and thier Eastern European satillite states. We, by a long Cold and Economy-war destroyed the Soviet Union and thier hold on thier people, along with the idea of Soviet Communism, the Wall and Iron Curtian came down, the support and logistic networks for these "Red" factions dried up and disappeared and guess what.....So did they....and pretty quickly too... We could have out niced the Japanese, or Germans, played by every rule in the Geneva Convention (prohibits, unrestricted submarine warfare against merchant shipping, bombing of population centers, etc BTW we prosecuted the German Naval and Air High Command for waging the same form of War we did, victory determines the right and wrong, ethics and war do not mix, you do all you can to win, or drag on the misery longer than needed....500,000 est Allied Casualities Invading Japan war dragging on till 1946-47(being nice and playing by the rules) or dropping 2 Atomic Bombs and letting them know we were serious about winning, so lets give up now or...and Japan was a fuedal warrior culture so we made a serious impression on the Leadership with the not playing fair and nice A-Bombs. Negotiations with Terror have worked when there is an issue or outcome to agree on, but the overall goal of the current Radical Islamic Terror Network is the destruction of the Great Satan (America) and the institution of an Islamic World....so we are pretty limited in our negotiation or bargaining points with these people.... -------------
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Posted By: Knight of Fire
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 10:49pm
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Dude if Clinton had accepted the saudis offer of Osamas head on a platter basically, We probably would never had to worry as much about this, but cuz we didn't we are now fighting this war, and its about time......
For those 3000 plus who were killed on 9/11 I pray that we don't just give up and make their deaths in vain.... ------------- Team Wardog -team captain |
Posted By: †Sniper†
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 10:53pm
| OS makes a fair point. However, WWII had vast popular support. This war is full of flawed intelligence, deception, shady motives, and media bias on all sides. |
Posted By: Knight of Fire
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 10:55pm
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Yea but which one do i believe, the one that actually supports our troops, or the one that falsifies things to make our troops look like the bad guys...... ------------- Team Wardog -team captain |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 10:57pm
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I'm going to jump in on this with something-there is no negotiating with these terrorists. As HWay and DB have already stated, you can't trust them. On top of that, also as DB pointed out, they haven't made any demands. They've simply made a cause out of killing us. So what is there to negotiate? Our economy and way of life. They don't want money-look how rich Osama bin Laden is. Yet he lives in a cave for no other reason than to kill Americans and Jews. If this were a normal enemy, we would negotiate, as we do every day. We're still talking with North Korea, and we haven't invaded Iran. But this enemy has made no demands-and terrorism in general makes no demands. It simply commands our attention as it did today in Europe. Did terrorism ask anything of us on 9/11, in Spain, in Australia, or any other recent terror attack? No. They attacked without warning and therefore opened themselves up to the hell that would follow. Any negotiation made with eastern extremists (I'm excluding the IRA and some others mentioned above) would in their eyes only be a delay to the destruction of free society. That's what they want, and their negotiations are simply steps to that end. That's one reason we don't negotiate. -------------
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 10:59pm
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Put the ruler down and put your pants back on... There ARE niceties in war. There have always been niceties in war. Bottom line is that war is a political tool. It is one of many tools used by a nation or group to accomplish a certain goal. If observing certain niceties will further those goals, then those niceties will be observed. For instance - we did not nuke Hanoi. We clearly could have, and in a macho-only war it would have been the correct thing to do. But this "nicety" (not nuking Hanoi) was necessary to preserve the political goal, which was why we were in Vietnam in the first place. In our present case, observing the niceties of not torturing enemy prisoners allows us to preserve the intermediate political goal of appearing to be "the good guys". This is necessary to our long-term political goal of peace and democracy in the Middle East. If we become the bad guy our long-term goal will be much more difficult to achieve. Therefore, even though trying not to shoot civilians (or whatever) is a tactical and strategic inconvenience, from a purely military perspective, it is essential from the political perspective. |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 10:59pm
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Huh? |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 11:01pm
Yep, under clintons administration terrorism really blossomed in the middle east. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 11:06pm
First off - these terrorists have made demands. Right from the get-go, decades ago, they have consistently wanted the US presence in the Middle East gone, and they have wanted Israel gone. That's pretty clear. Now, as to negotiating - again with the absolute statements. Let's imagine a scenario: The terrorists have become fully consilidated under Al-Zarqawi. The footmen have long forgotten the cause of the fighting - they fight because the boss says to fight. But they fight well - we are losing 100 men every month, with no end in sight. Now let's pretend that Al-Zarqawi is getting tired of being on the run all the time, and just wants to hang out on the beach for the rest of his life. He makes an offer - We fly him to the beach and leave him alone, and he will make the fighting stop. This is of course oversimplified, but work with me... Bottom line - the whole "no negotiation" idea works well when you are dealing with isolated hostage-takers. When you are essentially in a war, negotiation becomes an essential part of the package. In fact, I am hard pressed to think of more than a very few wars EVER that ended without negotiations, and those wars were fought on terms we wouldn't like. If you are dealing with a criminal you don't have to negotiate - in a war, negotiations are part of the deal. |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 11:12pm
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Jerusalem is staying right where it is, and we are not going anywhere any time soon. We are just going to kill and imprison every single one of them. The US has a policy, we do not, under any sircumstances negotiate with terrorists. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: Knight of Fire
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 11:17pm
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Clark, heres my point, These Terrorist take hostages, They Kill hostages, The break promises, They don't just want us to leave their country, they want us DEAD..... ------------- Team Wardog -team captain |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 11:17pm
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I agree with your point, Clark, but let me throw this in-we're not in a war with a conventional end. The terrorist are not going to tire of fighting. They're not in this for land, or money-they're in it for our way of life. That's not overdramatized-it's simple fact. I'm sure any other enemy would have quit at the end of Iraq. But this enemy has no reason to quit. As long as there are religious fanatics in the world, this is going to be a mission. We're trying to annhilate an entire religious sect. But we're going to be hard pressed to get rid of every extremist-that's why this "war" is a pointless waste. I believe we should root out what we can, but continuing in this way (advertising it like World War II) is nothing but a stress on the American people. We'll always be rooting out terrorists, so this isn't even really a way. This is an ongoing operation, just like the war on drugs. It's a war in their eyes, but it's not being fought in the traditional boundaries of war. So yeah, negotiating is an integral part of war. But there is no end to this war, therefore there is nothing to negotiate. -------------
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Posted By: phillll227
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 11:18pm
I disagree. Islam has been warring with the west since its inception, for one reason or another. Terrorism is just their most recent tool. It is naive to believe that these people have a reason for fighting other than that it is what they have always done. The only way to defeat an enemy that fights for no reason is to utterly destroy them. In other words, if we destroy the terrorists (simply glorified soldiers of Islam), they won't be able to use their barbaric tactics against us. ------------- |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 11:20pm
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Clark..you missed the point, niceties in war are by Convention and or aggreed by treaty methods of war(now is that pretty stupid, "play nice.."Have fun storming the Castle" Princess Bride, classic movie line)...right now we are fighting an idea, with no intention of fighting by known rules or "civil" agreement, only thier method of barbarisum designed to weaken thier enemies will to make war (so far succeding look at the American Lefts response), we are not fighting a nation state bound by rules.
We fought many a war with the threat of more sustained and destructive methods, we debated nuclear options against Russia 3 well known times (Berlin Airlift, Cuban Missile Crisis, and 1973 Arab-Isreali War) we almost used nuclear weapons against N Korea/China 1951, and each time once they understood the threat of escalation beyond ability to retaliate that alone forced negotiations. Once these terror networks along with thier support base understand we will use methods beyond thier means to retaliate, and bring down nation states and leaders who support and use these proxy (terror)armies (BTW these leaders like being in power over the meeting Allah option) the support for these terror networks goes away the cause becomes mute and we put our "dogs of war" back in the cages, till the next despot pops out of the woodwork. As long as our enemies know that we can only hold the leash of the dogs for only so long, then if needed we will let them do thier work, the sooner our enemies see the futility of war as an option. (works on COPS, Billy Bad Butt quits real quick once the officer threatens to release the dog...works in the military world too..) -------------
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Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 11:26pm
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The Politicians wont let the dogs of war do their job. They will poiticize the war. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: Atrosity
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 11:56pm
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Is it just me, or has this been on ALL DAY LONG?
------------- "Who me? No I'm quite blunt, like a sledghammer to the temple."-Me |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 08 July 2005 at 12:21am
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London or this argument? -------------
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Posted By: Knight of Fire
Date Posted: 08 July 2005 at 12:22am
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London, Yes
Arguement, yes ------------- Team Wardog -team captain |
Posted By: goodsmitty
Date Posted: 08 July 2005 at 3:55am
Wrong-read Charles Dulfuer's report to congress. Find your "proof" anywhere in the press for me and I will eat my shoe. There are zero links between Iraq and terrorists.
We are making them faster than we can extinguish them. If you want to eradicate terrorism, feed them and demand the same rights that we demand for our own people.
What price is higher than starving them to death and assuring them a life of disease, squalor, and poverty? Our policies alread ensure them a "bloody high" price.
And it appears that the war on cancer is going about as well as the war on TURRER.
AGREED! Everyone needs to hang two yellow ribbons on their car trunk and sing "Proud to be an American" even louder next July 4th. Sheesh, if you love war so much, sign up.
you want to bulldoze the earth?
I just hope the president gets the right country next time. ------------- "Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status." -Zesty |
Posted By: tippmann89c
Date Posted: 08 July 2005 at 3:58am
| ^someone has been a busy little bee |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 08 July 2005 at 6:29am
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Goodsmitty, Again typical leftist response....throw money and good intentions at evil and it will all go away.
You have read the Koran haven't you, you have been listening to thier reasons and history for war, before and beyond the current Iraq issue. We could feed them, house them, (we can not give them the same rights we have, for that would weaken the hold thier relgion has on them, women and non muslims with equal rights in an Islamic dominated society, read the Koran on that one. Thier society is a true religious caste system, strictly divided into the ruling minority Islamic haves and the lower Islamic caste and non believer have nots who do the will of the haves under threat of religious retribution.) do all the good things well intended leftists want to do. And all we will end up with is a well fed, housed and still angry Islamic Fighter better able to continue the "Jihad" as directed by his leaders against the infidel non believers in the world. We need to cut the head off the beast, limit Radical Islam's ability to wage war by cutting off its logistical infastructure, once there are no weapons, money, safe areas, and the populace no longer fears retribution from these radicals, then and only then will the problem of Radical Islam fade into history. Bet there were old yellow ribbons on a few desks, and even well intended Liberal Democrats working September 11th in the World Trade Center, and still did Radical Islam care, we even have those here in America who say those in the WTC "deserved" thier fate. We are fighting a culture, a culture of relgious sanctioned war and death thousands of years old, an idea, and we will not change thier views on us or the west by leaving them alone in "thier" world, and putting a big check in thier leaders hands, we just appease and further their contempt of us, and again show our lack of resolve and weakness in front of the will of "Allah" and more will join and follow the Jihad. And to be blind enough to believe that Saddam and his regime had no ties supporting in any way, any terror group is just blind party allegence ignorance. Contrary to any Government Commission and or independant "findings" what happened for true public consumption will be years away. (Warren Commission still sticks to the single shooter, ignoring the balistic and Zapruder film evidense of modern forensic science, and that too is a trusted Government Commission Report) -------------
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