geez, not again.
Printed From: Tippmann Paintball
Category: News And Views
Forum Name: Thoughts and Opinions
Forum Description: Got something you need to say?
URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=141724
Printed Date: 02 May 2024 at 12:19am
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Topic: geez, not again.
Posted By: bluemunky42
Subject: geez, not again.
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 4:26pm
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SAN FRANCISCO - Reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools was ruled unconstitutional Wednesday by a federal judge who granted legal standing to two families represented by an atheist who lost his previous battle before the U.S. Supreme Court. U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton ruled that the pledge's reference to one nation "under God" violates school children's right to be "free from a coercive requirement to affirm God."
this is what, the 3rd time? discuss. ------------- 
http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity - http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity |
Replies:
Posted By: Apu
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 4:29pm
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Discuss what?
------------- I need a new Sig... |
Posted By: bluemunky42
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 4:30pm
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discuss your opinion on the subject. that's usually what one discusses, yes? -------------
http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity - http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 4:32pm
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Didnt the US supreme court already give a ruling on this? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors"> 
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Posted By: SuperXero
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 4:34pm
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Can a federal judge override a Supreme Court Judge's decision? ------------- Tenacious and Versatile |
Posted By: triggerhappy1
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 4:42pm
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Thats rediculous. America was founded by Christians... and the pledge honours our country, people who fought and died for it, and its founders. ------------- 
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Posted By: AgentWhale007!`
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 4:44pm
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"Under God" was not added untill the 1950's. ------------- Paintball is lame.  |
triggerhappy1 wrote:Posted By: Rambino
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 4:45pm
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The Supreme Court did not rule on it - they dismissed the prior case for lack of standing. This issue won't go away until the Court does rule on the subject. ------------- [IMG]http://i38.tinypic.com/aag8s8.jpg"> |
Posted By: Predatorr
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 4:46pm
| redunkulous. If i lived there, id say under God anyways just to piss off anybody who thinks i should do otherwise. |
Posted By: A-5 08
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 4:46pm
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munky you're an athiest how do YOU feel?
I personally say under God with pride, but I could care less if people say under ala, under satan, or under ricky martin. Its a free country . . . or thats what we put in the adds. |
Posted By: djrock
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 4:46pm
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Why can one person, change what students say in the morning. This needs to be a federal case! Let the country decide. ------------- 
It's been changed jackass. |
Posted By: AgentWhale007!`
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 4:50pm
Ganked from Wikipedia. HistoryThe Pledge of Allegiance was written for the popular children's magazine Youth's Companion by socialist author and Baptist minister Francis Bellamy on 11 October 1892. The owners of Youth's Companion were selling flags to schools, and approached Bellamy to write the Pledge for their advertising campaign. It was marketed as a way to celebrate the 400th anniversary of Columbus arriving in the Americas and was first published on the following day, 12 October.
What what what? Your precious pledge was nothing more than an advertising jingle used for profit.
------------- Paintball is lame. |
Posted By: Predatorr
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 4:52pm
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either way i say it with pride whale. So you know, come hell or high water i'll have something to be proud of. |
Posted By: triggerhappy1
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 4:52pm
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Yup, welcome to America. -------------
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Posted By: AgentWhale007!`
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 4:53pm
On days you do not have to go to school do you stand facing a flag and recite the pledge? ------------- Paintball is lame. |
Posted By: AgentWhale007!`
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 4:55pm
 ------------- Paintball is lame. |
Posted By: Rambino
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 4:55pm
It IS a Federal case... That's the point. ------------- [IMG]http://i38.tinypic.com/aag8s8.jpg"> |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 4:55pm
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Its a part of the pledge that is treasured by many regaurdless of its origins. Its a part of their herritage, its what we grew up with. There isnt any reason it should be taken out. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: djrock
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 4:57pm
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Agent whale, are you like a Canadian? It has come a long way from that advertising crap. -------------
It's been changed jackass. |
Posted By: AgentWhale007!`
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 4:59pm
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Im a Floridian. It has come along way, now its mindless drivel that most of the kids in school 1) dont say and 2) shouldnt care about. It serves no point. ------------- Paintball is lame. |
Posted By: bluemunky42
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 5:04pm
I? I just don't say it. as a matter of fact, no one really says it in my class/school. not all of them are offended/atheist/wannabe anarchist, but most just don't feel like it. it's a tad stupid, if you ask me. i can see the meaning behind it, however. -------------
http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity - http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 5:06pm
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I stood up and said it. Its not that big of a deal, 15 seconds out of your day. No use getting all worked up about because your so HxC punk wannabee poser atheist whatever. Its two words. It isnt coersion, just get over it. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: WGP guy
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 5:07pm
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Posted By: AgentWhale007!`
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 5:08pm
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Most kids should just know that its not manditory. Say it if you want to, if not just sit down or do whatever. ------------- Paintball is lame. |
Posted By: Jim Paint
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 5:16pm
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How about you say the pledge and then insert whatever you want to worship, or just pause for a slight second?
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saepe fidelis |
Posted By: Frank Zappa
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 5:17pm
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I think the pledge is just a conspiracy to brainwash us all into being a patriotic citizen.
------------- It's all a conspiracy. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Edgar+Cayce&btnG=Google+Search - Edgar Cayce >you |
Posted By: bluemunky42
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 5:17pm
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i've got nothing against it, it's just that this argument has been going on so long. if you want to say it, go ahead, i won't criticize. -------------
http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity - http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 5:18pm
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Say it as it is, or dont say it, its not a big deal. People that get offended by this kind of stuff, are the same anal retentives that get upset if the fork is where the spoon should be. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: AgentWhale007!`
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 5:25pm
I still want an answer. ------------- Paintball is lame. |
Posted By: Panda Man
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 5:29pm
you children make me sick to my stomach... I agree with Freedom of speech but Holy  you wouldn't even
be alowed to be saying 1/2 the things you have said without the
constitution that WAS made by Christians(yea, yea, yea... Slave owners
talking about freedom blah.. blah.. blah) I think "UNDER GOD" SHOULD be
optional, but your pledge to this country you Enjoy what it has to
offer, which is being able to wake up every morning and being the
person "YOU" want to be, not somthing you have to be to stay safe... you guys who don't say it when "asked" to probably are the same ones who have there hats on during the national anthem or don't even stand up for it. Learn some cooth, and respect. I want to rant more, but yelling at little over the internet isn't even worth typing for.
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Posted By: Predatorr
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 5:30pm
| no, but i pray. And i pray on days when i do go to school. |
Posted By: bluemunky42
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 5:53pm
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^i respect that decision, as long as you don't bother other people by doing it. -------------
http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity - http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity |
Posted By: Bolt3
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 5:58pm
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Psh. San Franciscans are whiny. They should die. By God. ------------- <Removed sig for violation of Clause 4 of the New Sig Rules> |
Posted By: AgentWhale007!`
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:02pm
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Can we get a strike for filter dodging? ------------- Paintball is lame. |
Posted By: Fat Stalin
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:05pm
That's not what he said. All he said was that America was founded by Christians. Even though 'Under God' wasn't added until the 1950's, the country was still founded by Christians. You aren't forced to say the pledge. And if they take 'Under God' out, I'm going to say that they are forcing that God doesn't exist on me.
Everybody at my school says it and many do care about it. ------------- 
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Posted By: Cedric
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:14pm
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No one says the pledge anyways.
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Posted By: Jim Paint
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:14pm
You're being sarcastic, right? -------------
saepe fidelis |
Posted By: bluemunky42
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:15pm
i hope so. -------------
http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity - http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity |
Posted By: Jim Paint
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:16pm
Dont use your schools kids to generalize teenagers across the country. Thats generalizing, which is bad. -------------
saepe fidelis |
Posted By: AgentWhale007!`
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:22pm
Nope. He dodged the filters by using the little angry censored pic. Its being sent via PM to the mods now. ------------- Paintball is lame. |
Posted By: Cedric
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:23pm
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God has no place in public schools.
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Posted By: Boss_DJ
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:26pm
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------------- 
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Posted By: Jim Paint
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:27pm
... They're faces, and they're used to express emotion. Go cry in a corner. -------------
saepe fidelis |
Posted By: Frank Zappa
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:29pm
Im pretty sure it was an aethiest dad that was upset because his daughter had to say it in school.
The kid didn't care. ------------- It's all a conspiracy. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Edgar+Cayce&btnG=Google+Search - Edgar Cayce >you |
Posted By: mysteriousone
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:34pm
-------------  "Where is your beer tonight? I hope its a heineken."
Jesus is my savior |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:34pm
Has absolutly nothing to do with god staying out of state and county run institutions. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: Jim Paint
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:36pm
Doesnt matter, Im a christian and I dont think it should be in public schools. -------------
saepe fidelis |
Posted By: mysteriousone
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:36pm
------------- "Where is your beer tonight? I hope its a heineken."
Jesus is my savior |
Posted By: Jim Paint
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:37pm
And some people may be wrong. You have to learn not everyones Christian, and they cry when you try and educate them about God. So just go by the nations laws. And don't bend them in your favor. -------------
saepe fidelis |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:41pm
If you think not wanting god in publicly funded and run insitutions is rejecting god. You... You need to know what it is to truely reject god. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: mysteriousone
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:44pm
------------- "Where is your beer tonight? I hope its a heineken."
Jesus is my savior |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:48pm
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Wonderful. Would you like a comunion wafer? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: AgentWhale007!`
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:49pm
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Every time you sin you reject God. Do you masturbate? ------------- Paintball is lame. |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:51pm
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Sinning =/= rejecting god. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: mysteriousone
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:51pm
------------- "Where is your beer tonight? I hope its a heineken."
Jesus is my savior |
Posted By: AgentWhale007!`
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 6:54pm
You dont have to do that to reject God. When you sin, you are openly rejecting the rules in which God has set out for you.
------------- Paintball is lame. |
Posted By: Cedric
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 7:01pm
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I'm not rejecting god. I'm respecting other people's beliefs.
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Posted By: AgentWhale007!`
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 7:05pm
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Aparently that is against the rules of Christianity or somthing, Cedric. ------------- Paintball is lame. |
Posted By: Jim Paint
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 7:38pm
C'mon now. You go to a Christian school, you should know a little more about this. -------------
saepe fidelis |
Posted By: whack-a-mole
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 7:47pm
------------- NASA and the Americans spent millions of dollars and hundreds of hours to develop a pen that would write in space.....The Russians used a pencil. |
Posted By: djrock
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 8:12pm
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Enough outta you hippie. -------------
It's been changed jackass. |
Posted By: pb125
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 8:22pm
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I have no problem with saying the pledge... But I do think under god should be taken out. ------------- 
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Posted By: djrock
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 8:24pm
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It's been changed jackass. |
Posted By: Bunkered
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 8:51pm
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If the pledge was like,
"I pledge allegiance to God who created the United States of America, and to the religion for which he stands, one nation ruled by God, Indivisible, with Hell and Fire for atheists..." THEN I can understand complaining about it. If it's just two words, and the whole thing is optional in the first place, I think people need to just settle down and stop clogging the courts with pointless cases like this. ------------- 
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Posted By: Koolit32
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 8:54pm
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The reasons to just take the words out hugely overweigh the reasons to keep them in. |
Posted By: Fat Stalin
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 9:43pm
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They do? It's pretty much the same arguement both ways. -------------
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Posted By: Badsmitty
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 10:13pm
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HA HA!
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 10:14pm
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This is only half of an argument. I presume that the whole argument goes something like this: 1. America was founded by Christians 2. Therefore Christianity is entitled to special treatment compared to other religions 3. Therefore "under God" should stay in the Pledge
And if #1 and #2 were true, I would tend to go with #3 as a logical conclusion. Now. #1 is questionable at best. Nobody disputes that the pilgrims were Christian, but the people that actually wrote the Constitution? Not so clear. Thomas Jefferson certainly was not Christian, and many others as well. Even if #1 were true, however, #2 does not follow. The Framers were pretty clear on that point, and the laws of the land have made that even clearer. Unless you are comfortable substituting "god" for "Allah", "Buddha", "Lucifer", "FSM", or whatever else, then it's a no-go. Equal treatment of all religions under the law. No favoritism allowed. Not even for Christianity. Moreover - even if "Christianity" did have a special place - WHICH Christianity? Should we give preference to Puritan views? I'm pretty sure nobody here would like that... How about the Mormon? That's a home-grown American denomination. Of course, many people don't consider Mormons Christian. That works out fine, since many Mormons don't consider anybody else Christian. And many Protestants, of course, do not consider Catholics Christians... you see the point. The law aside, granting "Christianity" a special place only creates more problems. There is a reason the First Amendment reads the way it does. Now - are the good arguments for keeping "under God" in the Pledge? Perhaps. But "America was founded by Christians" is NOT one of those arguments. |
Posted By: Shub
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 11:04pm
| Ok, to all those who demand that "under God" or the whole Pledge be pulled from society, I ask why? There have been enough threads pushing the burden of proof to those supporting the Pledge, but no one can give a legitimate reason why the Pledge should be banished. |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 14 September 2005 at 11:18pm
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I don't think anybody is suggesting that "under god" or the pledge be "pulled from society". I think the issue at hand is whether including the phrase "under god" in a morning ritual should be permitted in public schools. EDIT - not whether individual students can say "under god". Of course they can. But whether the teachers/administrators can do so. The argument against that is simple - it appears to be an unlawful endorsement of religion by the government, in violation of the First Amendment. I'm sure there are other arguments floating around, but that's really the core of it. |
Posted By: Hades
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 1:35am
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As an Agnonstic, I cannot endorse or condone God's existance and neither should any school child that is incapable of making decisions of what they should or should believe regarding their faith in a religious being. ------------- 
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Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 1:39am
In that case should we ban Santa Clause? Children beleive in him because we talk about him so much at Christmas. What about the Easter Bunny? The Tooth Fairy? ------------- Real Men play Tuba [IMG]http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1859/newsmall6xz.jpg"> PH33R TEH 1337 Dwarf! http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/log_off_user.asp" rel="nofollow - DONT CLICK ME!!1 |
Posted By: _TT_
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 1:47am
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I think the issue here is to remove the phrase "Under God" not ban the pledge.
I am sure if the phrase was "Over Satan," the same uproar would be raised but by a differnt group. Hmm. Schools have already removed Santa Clause, The Easter Bunny. Hence Spring Break and Winter Break Holidays as opposed to the previous Christmas break and Easter Break titles. As for the tooth fairy, take that up with your dentist. ------------- |
Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 1:54am
On the contrary students in elementary schools still read poems and do drawings of Santa. My old elementary school stills brings a Santa to the school. Same deal with the Easter bunny. Besides, Santa and the Easter bunny have nothing to do with the changing of the names of the breaks. Those were because they made mention of Christianity, Santa however is still PC even though we KNOW he doesnt exist. ------------- Real Men play Tuba [IMG]http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1859/newsmall6xz.jpg"> PH33R TEH 1337 Dwarf! http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/log_off_user.asp" rel="nofollow - DONT CLICK ME!!1 |
Posted By: _TT_
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 2:00am
The changes to the Break names
As does the Pledge in the current form..... ------------- |
Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 2:03am
No, the pledge makes refference to RELIGION, not Christianity. God is a term used to describe a divine being, not nessarly the Christian God. The Pledge doesnt say "One Nation Under Jesus" does it? EDIT : To further my point, if Religion should not be even mentioned in schools why do we study Greek Mythology? I happen to have a very close friend who is Pagen and worships the Greek gods. Think I'm joking? I'm dead serious. I am completely tolerent of his religion but is it constitutional to teach in the public school system facts about a religion that although almost dead still exists? ------------- Real Men play Tuba [IMG]http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1859/newsmall6xz.jpg"> PH33R TEH 1337 Dwarf! http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/log_off_user.asp" rel="nofollow - DONT CLICK ME!!1 |
Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 2:10am
What's this ignorant blasphamy? It has nothing to do with nationality, it's reality. It was an advertising jingle, not some mystic ballad written upon a mountain high. I dont really think about the word god when I sing the national anthem, it's not that important to me. Being canadian is far more meaningful than knowing the words to an anthem. |
Posted By: Hades
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 2:14am
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And endorsing some form of religion in a public school is constructive, how? -------------
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Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 2:14am
Read my edit, I ask the same question ------------- Real Men play Tuba [IMG]http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1859/newsmall6xz.jpg"> PH33R TEH 1337 Dwarf! http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/log_off_user.asp" rel="nofollow - DONT CLICK ME!!1 |
Posted By: Hades
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 2:16am
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They teach Greek Mythology as fiction....
It is the choice of your buddy to believe it or not. -------------
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Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 2:19am
The same choice is presented to youth when they recite the pledge. Is it or is it not however a religion? Also they didnt quite teach it as fiction, they taught it as the Greek system of beliefs, although I will give credit that it was taught in English class. ------------- Real Men play Tuba [IMG]http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1859/newsmall6xz.jpg"> PH33R TEH 1337 Dwarf! http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/log_off_user.asp" rel="nofollow - DONT CLICK ME!!1 |
Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 2:28am
Awww, BS came on for a few minutes and left, I was hoping he
would jump in, this thread is the perfect distraction from my poem for
english 
------------- Real Men play Tuba [IMG]http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1859/newsmall6xz.jpg"> PH33R TEH 1337 Dwarf! http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/log_off_user.asp" rel="nofollow - DONT CLICK ME!!1 |
Posted By: Hades
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 2:31am
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Ha, Well I have to get some sleep but your abbrevation for BadSmitty is a nice touch.
I never liked writing for english either. -------------
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Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 2:33am
Acctually Jeff takes credit for that.  He noticed that BS, GS and OS all have two letter abreveations when he got annoyed with all the political threads they made. Plus its politer then their constant refefrences to me as "neocon" and "hitler youth" ------------- Real Men play Tuba [IMG]http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1859/newsmall6xz.jpg"> PH33R TEH 1337 Dwarf! http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/log_off_user.asp" rel="nofollow - DONT CLICK ME!!1 |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 9:39am
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Santa is not relevant specifically BECAUSE we all know him not to exist. No rational person could argue that the schools are endorsing a religious belief in Santa. It might be that we shouldn't be filling our children's heads with lies about Santa, but it is not a religious issue. Teaching about religion is fine - we do and should learn about many religions in school. Heck, we should learn more. But those classes are, and should be, framed in the context of "some people believe that..." The Pledge is done quite differently. To be consistent, it would have to be "...one nation, which some people believe is subject to divine governance, and others do not, indivisible..." That would be pretty goofy. And there is another difference. Greek mythology is taught IN CLASS. The Pledge isn't taught in a class "as something some people do" - it is said collectively, lead by the teacher, before class, as an ACTUAL ritual. Comparing the two is like saying that just because we learn about facing Mecca a praying, that it would be ok to have the teacher lead daily prayers to Allah five times a day. The context is entirely different. The two cannot be compared. As to whether "under God" refers to the Christian god or not - two points. First, we cannot ignore the context. That phrase was introduced to the pledge at the behest of a Catholic organization. Moreover, half of the arguments supporting the phrase talk about how christianity has a special place in America. Not "religion" - christianity specifically. To argue that the god is question is not the biblical god is disingenuous. Second - Even if it were a non-specific god, that would still be an endorsement of a religious belief: The belief that there is a god at all, and that there is only one. Many religions believe in many gods; other religions do not truly have gods at all. |
Posted By: cv222005
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 9:58am
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i say we deport the comie blankity blank blanks, or shoot em, i served and friends of mine served. if you dont like america get out we aint keeping you here! as far as im concerned thouse of you who are against God in any public place can rot in you know where. ------------- 
98C R/T M4 foregrips W/sightpost 3POS-M4 STOCK REMOTE |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 10:02am
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When I see posts like this, I never know if I should laugh or cry. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 10:27am
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Once the government establishes the "religion" of no religion in the public mind of its people, the government then is free to establish itself as the religion of the people.
Been done before by another socialist state or two................ ------------- 
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Posted By: Betterdays
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 10:38am
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OS: Your statement is technically true but the government, following the directive of 1st amendment, is not trying to establish no religion, it's trying to establish equality for all religions. Big difference. Also as a side note ....
I feel that way about this entire issue. |
Posted By: Rambino
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 11:03am
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OS raises a very legitimate point - is the removal of "under God" essentially an endorsement of another religious belief, the "no god" belief? No perfect answer there, but it strikes me that saying neither "god" nor "no god" is as close to neutral as we can expect to get. "Under god" is not neutral at all; at least silence could be neutral. It's not perfect, but I don't see how we could get any closer to neutrality. ------------- [IMG]http://i38.tinypic.com/aag8s8.jpg"> |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 11:40am
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nt -------------
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 12:04pm
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Since you apparently missed my earlier post, OS...
The Federal judge in question did NOT rule that "any person wishing to recite the Pledge" is prohibited from saying "under god". The issue is whether a GOVERNMENT employee (teacher) in his OFFICIAL capacity, can institute a RITUAL with a RELIGIOUS context. You are arguing against a strawman, OS - again.
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Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 1:21pm
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The pledge is optional. Therefor, you don't have to say it. There is no presure to say the phrase "Under God" But, atheists are pushing to have this phrase removed, seems that atheists are pushing their religion onto the rest of the country. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 1:28pm
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nt -------------
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Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 1:31pm
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Another case of a set few impacting a vast majority. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: bluemunky42
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 2:50pm
not to attack your friend, but...isn't that more like...half pagan, half greek whatever their religion was/is? paganism(gr) is the worshipping of the spirits of the trees, sky, etc. if i'm not mistaken. -------------
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Posted By: Johndcjr1989
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 3:06pm
it doesnt matter what it was first used for and when under God was added to it the point is that even tho it may have been first used for a "jingle" as u put it it still celebrates America and IS A PLEDGE TO THE COUNTRY NOT TO GOD. if repeat it right now and think about it it doesnt say anything about pledging any allegiances to any gods at all it says "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." under god is just used as a descriptive phrase there its just an adjective the same as indivisible...i believe that if that phrase offends u then u have the right to not repeat that part of the pledge but to try to prevent everybody from saying it when the majority of the country at least believes in some kind of higher being (or god) is ridiculous. i could understand how being forced to say "under god" might be offensive to some but hearing it surely cant be considered offensive...and if hearing it is considered offensive by some then i could say that hearing their oppinion is offensive as well. well thats just my 2 cents im not trying to start an arguement here or make fun of/offend anyone at all and lets try to keep this topic civil and mature since alot of the times these topics get out of hand and end up being shut down due to the excessive flaming which goes on. ------------- Rockin' the Ironman Intimidator. The Original Redneck Gangsta |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 3:21pm
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1. "Under God" was added to Pledge only recently. It was changed then, it can be changed again. This isn't much of a tradition, and "under god" is certainly not the "true form" of this American tradition. 2. Tradition alone can never be sufficient to support something wrong and/or illegal. History is full of examples of this rather obvious point. Some traditions just need to be removed. Should tradition carry weight? Certainly. Should tradition alone trump other considerations? Certainly not. "It is traditional", used alone, is just about the crappiest argument possible.
True, but irrelevant.
Which rights in particular? You have to be more specific than that. But reciting the pledge personally is COMPLETELY different from leading it in an official government capacity. Completely different. That difference goes throughout the entire US legal system - not just this instance. The entire Bill of Rights is about what the GOVERNMENT cannot do. Not about what people cannot do - what the GOVERNMENT cannot do. The Second Amendment prohibits the GOVERNMENT from prohibiting firearms - I can still declare "no guns in my house". The Fifth Amendment says the GOVERNMENT from forcing you to testify against yourself - a business can still require its employees to defend themselves. Similarly, the First Amendment prohibits the GOVERNMENT from endorsing or favoring any religious belief - it does not prohibit individuals from either. If a teacher wants to say a prayer in private - fine. But when that teacher leads the class in a religious ritual, then the teacher is acting as the GOVERNMENT, and the GOVERNMENT cannot act in a religious fashion. To "lead the Pledge in any official capacity" is NOT a personal right - it is an act of the GOVERNMENT. You cannot gloss over the difference between the two - that difference (between personal and public) is the center of the entire discussion.
Different people will answer differently, but I am annoyed by the religious reference on my money. Do I still use money? Of course - I don't have a choice. If there were two currencies, however, it is quite possible that I would choose to use the a-religious currency. While the currency issue is interesting, it is also quite different from the pledge issue, however, for a variety of reasons. Another discussion, perhaps. |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 3:25pm
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True but irrelevant. The issue isn't whether hearing "under God" is "offensive". Being offensive is ok. The government could offend me all day long, and I would have no right to complain (until the next election). The issue is whether this constitutes an unconstitutional endorsement of religion by the government. And having a government employee declare that the US is "a nation under god" sure sounds a lot like an endorsement of religion by the government. |
Posted By: Xspyderman
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 4:50pm
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"I pledge allegiance to my flag and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." Go back to the original version and the problem is solved... short and sweet... no drama... ------------- Xs. A5, GTA; Flatline, Double Trigger, R/T, Tapco Stock, 32° Remote, Attitude Forum: meeting place or medium for discussion of matters of public interest. NOT INTERESTED? DON'T POST! |