Anyone following the Judge Roberts thing?
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Topic: Anyone following the Judge Roberts thing?
Posted By: .Ryan
Subject: Anyone following the Judge Roberts thing?
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 6:13pm
I don't really know what to think about him. At first I was thinkin
hell no, being that he used to be a coroporate lawyer but when I dug a
little deeper he seems like he's pretty moderate. I still don't know
about him though, he basically dodged every question asked of him in
the last two days. That alone makes me not want to trust him. It ought
to be interesting to see who replaces O'Connor though....
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Replies:
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 6:16pm
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I think he will make an excellent judge.
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Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 6:22pm
If he is as by-the-book anti-activist as he says, I agree. But, like I
said, he did a lot of dodging during the questions. If he ever did
decided to use his own beliefs in deciding a case it'll be kinda iffy.
He pretty much wouldn't share his opinions on stuff.
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 6:25pm
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His beliefs are irrelevant. The only belief that matters is whether his beliefs should matter, and I believe that he believes that his beliefs will not matter.
Therefore he will be a good judge, regardless of his beliefs.
:)
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Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 6:27pm
Let's just hope that belief is strong.
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 6:28pm
Posted By: bluemunky42
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 6:35pm
i don't follow it. what's it about?
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http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity - http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity
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Posted By: xteam
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 6:36pm
no
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Posted By: Hades
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 6:36pm
Whatever happens with it, happens. There isnt anything I can do about it so I dont really pay attention.
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 6:38pm
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.Ryan wrote:
At first I was thinkin hell no, being that he used to be a coroporate lawyer |
BTW, corporate lawyers come in all shapes and sizes. It would be incorrect to conclude that all, or even a large majority, or corporate lawyers are conservative/Republicans.
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Posted By: AgentWhale007!`
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 6:50pm
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I think I laughed myself silly watching The Daily Show the night Bush chose Roberts.
"So what are the Democrats saying about the decision?"
"John, the Democrats have been angry over Bush's selection for weeks now"
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Paintball is lame.
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Posted By: Zesty
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 8:11pm
Are you talking about John Roberts?
If so, I read some horrible things about him, but it was in the Rolling Stone so who knows how accurate that is.
To sum it up the artical clamined a few things about him:
-Pro-life/anti-abortion...he has been quoted as saying "the government has a legitimate interest in protecting the unborn child."...Roe v. Wade decision " was wrongly decided and should be overruled."
-Religious fanatic-supports school prayer, and even school prayer clubs. Quote,"exclusion of religion....sends the clear message that the State favors irreligion."
-Against flag-burning- Quote,"the First Amendment does not prohibit Congress from removing the American flag as a prop available to those who seek to express their own views by destroying it."
-In regards to an endangered species of frog in California- quote,"a hapless toad that, for reasons of its own, lives its entire life in California."
-Supports torture- when asked about the geneva Convention,"(it) cannot be judicially enforced"....and "does not apply to Al Qaeda and its members."
Basically the dude sounds like a total douche from what i've read about him.....I don't want him in any position to make any decision that could potentially seriously affect someone's life.
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Posted By: Mephistopheles
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 8:15pm
If he doesn't make a judge, I think he'll find a good job in the American League.
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Posted By: Rambino
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 8:32pm
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Zesty -
I didn't read that article, but if your quotes are any indication, the article is a piece of trash, liberally combining incorrect quotes, out-of-context quotes, misconstrued quotes, and unsupported conclusions.
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Posted By: Homer J
Date Posted: 15 September 2005 at 8:36pm
.Ryan wrote:
If he is as by-the-book anti-activist as he says, I agree. But, like I
said, he did a lot of dodging during the questions. If he ever did
decided to use his own beliefs in deciding a case it'll be kinda iffy.
He pretty much wouldn't share his opinions on stuff.
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He actually answered more questions than most Supreme Court nominees usually do.
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Posted By: Dead_George52
Date Posted: 16 September 2005 at 12:54am
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I wish he would just lay down his beliefs instead of shutting up like a freakin' butterclam!
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Posted By: Zesty
Date Posted: 16 September 2005 at 11:34am
Rambino wrote:
Zesty -
I didn't read that article, but if your quotes are any indication, the article is a piece of trash, liberally combining incorrect quotes, out-of-context quotes, misconstrued quotes, and unsupported conclusions.
| That must be it. It was the Rolling Stone after all!
But like anything, you can't just write it off as trash and assume it has no valid points!
One thing that struck me, is I have heard he has not stated whether or not he supported roe v. wade, but in this article it has a direct quote from him saying he does not agree with the ruling and it should be overturned.
So I don't know if that was a downright fake-quote of him, but if he even said anything of the sort he seems to be backtracking now that he's in the spotlight.
Regardless, the dude obviously doesn't have a pair seeing as he's afraid to make his position known, and IMHO, the people that are afraid to let their aganda be known are the ones to fear most.
He strikes me as a conservative square, which is the exact opposite of me.
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Posted By: Zesty
Date Posted: 16 September 2005 at 11:41am
The only things I have even read about this dude was in Rolling Stone and http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050912020709990003&ncid=NWS00010000000001 - this article, so please forgive me!
But from the link, they seem to agree that the guy is side-stepping a lot of the major social and moral issues. He is not being forthcoming with his views and beliefs, which honestly scares me!
He is quoted as saying the roe v. wade ruling was wrongly decided and should be overturned, and now he seems to say the exact opposite, that he accepts it as a set precedent.
It's not even a big deal for me, because I have better things to worry about than this poser, but the only research I've done into it points to the dude as being someone I'm not "down with".
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Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 16 September 2005 at 11:42am
Over turned or not, if the case comes up again, to the supreme court, they can overturn it if they want, thats their right. They are supposed to rule by the book, what ever the constitution says. If the court that is in session feels it was a bad decision. Its going to get overturned. No point in complaining about a slow moving train.
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Posted By: Rambino
Date Posted: 16 September 2005 at 12:00pm
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Zesty -
As best I could tell from your post, many of those quotes are from legal opinions that he wrote, and these quotes are twisted out of context.
Example: -In regards to an endangered species of frog in California- quote,"a hapless toad that, for reasons of its own, lives its entire life in California."
The "hapless toad" comment was from a case involving the application of Federal law to what may be a State issue. The question was whether the Endangered Species Act (Federal law) can apply to a creature that lives only in one state. The Commerce Clause of the Constution gives Congress the power to regulate interstate commerce, but Congress does NOT have the general power to pass laws for intra-state matters. So the issue at hand in the case was whether this toad counted as "interstate commerce". Roberts thought that it did not, in part because the toad only lives in California.
So - a very specific and complex legal issue. There is no cause to conclude that Roberts is against the protection of endangered species - none at all. He simply favors a more restrictive reading of the Commerce Clause, and he has been pretty consistent about that. In this particular case it happened to be an environmental issue, but that was happenstance.
The "hapless toad" phrase is a good example of judges who think they are very clever. US jurisprudence is full of judges using snide comments to make points. It is unfair to Roberts to infer from this any position on toads.
Similarly: -Supports torture- when asked about the geneva Convention,"(it) cannot be judicially enforced"....and "does not apply to Al Qaeda and its members."
The application of the Geneva Convention to non-nations is unclear at best, and established law probably favors the position that the Geneva Convention does NOT apply to non-nation actors, any more than it applies to treatment of common criminals. Roberts argued his legal case (which is not an unusual position), and it would be unfair to conclude that he "supports torture". Based on my reading I tend to agree that the Geneva Convention does not apply to Al-Qaeda - but I certainly do not approve of the administration's practice of torturing them. Moreover, you have to remember that Roberts was working for Reagan at the time - his JOB was to support the position of the administration, not to be "fair".
Similar criticisms apply to most/all of the rest of your quotes, at least the ones I could track down. Generally speaking, they take a position on a legal issue and twist it into a position on a substantive/moral issue. That isn't fair to any judge. Judges are supposed to judge based on the law, not based on the facts. And Roberts has, IMO, shown a very good ability to judge based on law and not facts.
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Posted By: Rambino
Date Posted: 16 September 2005 at 12:06pm
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DBibeau855 wrote:
Over turned or not, if the case comes up again, to the supreme court, they can overturn it if they want, thats their right. They are supposed to rule by the book, what ever the constitution says. If the court that is in session feels it was a bad decision. Its going to get overturned. No point in complaining about a slow moving train. |
Yes and no.
As Roberts noted during his testimony, Roe v. Wade is the established precedent and law of the land. Yes, the Court has the power to overturn it, but they would not do so lightly.
Roe was not really a case about abortion - abortion was the FACT in question. The underlying legal principle was one of PRIVACY. The Court in Roe concluded that the Constitution provides for a constitutional right of privacy - abortion just happens to be an element of that privacy.
If Roe were truly overturned, then there would no longer be a right of privacy. That would, quite literally, wreak havoc on the law. The principle of privacy is now deeply entrenched in established law - thousands upon thousands of cases rely upon it to some extent or other. If privacy were simply removed, it would take decades to sort out what is what, legally speaking. Overturning Roe would be a very, very, very big deal, mostly for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with abortion.
If the Court addresses abortion, they may limit the application of Roe and privacy as related to abortion, but Roe will never (IMO) be overturned.
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Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 16 September 2005 at 12:09pm
My point was merely that they have the power to do it if they so desire. I don't think it will be overturned either, for various reasons that may or may not be correct. I dont see it being overturned any time soon.
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Posted By: Rambino
Date Posted: 16 September 2005 at 12:17pm
I figured that was what you meant - my point was simply that even though they have the theoretical power to overturn Roe, they are trapped by legal circumstance.
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Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 16 September 2005 at 12:19pm
True. I think if they overturned it, thousands of cases that used Roe V. Wade to make or brake the case would be apealed and brought back. It would flood the courts and turn the legal comunity into the "chicken with its head cut off"
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Posted By: TRAVELER
Date Posted: 16 September 2005 at 3:43pm
Judge Roberts is probably the smartest man of his generation, far more
intelligent than any of the senators who questioned him. These senators
had staff that worked for days on end to think up the questions that
their bosses could ask of Judge Roberts, and never once was he put on
the spot.
Those of you who remember Ginsburg's hearing when she was up for
appointment will recall that she answered almost no questions at all
regarding her thoughts on certain cases, or about her beliefs in
general.
As lead council for the ACLU, Ginsburg would be considered by many to
be to the right of no one but Karl Marx himself, and yet she received
98 votes from the senate.
Democrats don't really have any fear of Judge Roberts overturning Roe
vs Wade, but they don't like his opposition to "legislating from the
bench", which has become widespread in recent years.
Another sore point is Judge Roberts' dislike at the court's recent
willingness to use the decisions in foreign cases as precedent when
deciding cases in our own country. Such practices are patently
unconstitutional as the laws of other countries are not passed by
our own legislature within the boundaries defined by our constitution.
In some countries bestiality is legal. If our courts are using foreign
law as precedent, it could be argued that bestialiy should be made
legal in our own country because courts in other countries have found
that banning it is a violation of expression, or a violation of their
own constitutions.
Judge Roberts will win his appointment, with "no" votes coming from
Schumer, Kennedy, Feinstein, et al. Hillary will vote yes, the Bushes
have something on the Clintons.
The big vote (and the big fight) will come when Sandra Day O'Conner is replaced...
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Posted By: Rambino
Date Posted: 16 September 2005 at 4:02pm
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TRAVELER wrote:
...they don't like his opposition to "legislating from the bench", which has become widespread in recent years. |
While I generally concur with your post, I disagree with the currently popular idea that "legislating from the bench has become widespread in recent years".
I not aware of any facts to support this claim. In fact, many of the examples raised by the champions of this claim (Tom DeLay) are patently false and incorrect (Kilo and Schiavo). The only recent case of which I am aware that might even approach "legislating from the bench" would the the Mass. decision regarding homosexual marriage. I am not sufficiently familiar with that case to offer specific opinions on that case, but even if that case were "judicial activism", it would pale against examples from history, beginning with Marbury v. Madison. As I see it, "legislating from the bench" is either not common or not new, depending on your definition. In either event, the quoted claim in incorrect.
In my experience, "judicial activism" is simply code for "I don't like that decision".
Another sore point is Judge Roberts' dislike at the court's recent willingness to use the decisions in foreign cases as precedent when deciding cases in our own country. Such practices are patently unconstitutional as the laws of other countries are not passed by our own legislature within the boundaries defined by our constitution. |
I agree that this is a touchy issue, but you are incorrect to say that this practice is unconstitutional. There is plenty of history in the US of incorporating foreign law - the entire common law of the British Commonwealth was incorporated into US law at the outset of our judicial system. A British case from 1565 could, theoretically, be valid precedent for a US court today.
Moreover, no implication has been made, to my knowledge, that the Supreme Court is bound by these foreign precedents. The Court is not even bound by its own precedents, let alone the precedents of other courts. The Court is bound by the Consitution, and only the Constitution. All other precedents are advisory.
In some countries bestiality is legal. If our courts are using foreign law as precedent, it could be argued that bestialiy should be made legal in our own country because courts in other countries have found that banning it is a violation of expression, or a violation of their own constitutions. |
This is simply not correct. This does not follow from any position taken by any current Justice. This is a made-up argument by opponents of using foreign precedent, and it has no value.
The big vote (and the big fight) will come when Sandra Day O'Conner is replaced... |
Concur. That will be interesting.
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