thoughts on the military
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Category: News And Views
Forum Name: Thoughts and Opinions
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Topic: thoughts on the military
Posted By: IrIsHGunNeR37
Subject: thoughts on the military
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 2:00pm
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Ok so a couple days ago a buddy of mine here at school showed me something that a kid he knows from back home wrote to him onthe military. This has kinda been an ongoing thing and the kid is honestly the most ignorant person ever. He basically bashes our service men and women saying that they are all worthless. Also that they are nothing more than war mongers who want to do nothing more than kill for the sake of killing. Another point he brings out which I belkieve is complete and utter crap is that most of the military is made up of low class people from the south and also that anyone in the military is nothing more than white trash. Now honestly I disagree with this compeltely because I have had relatives who have served, friends who are in the military right now, and also I myself am looking into joing the military when I graduate college. I guess that would still make me worhtless and white trash even though I am getting a four year degree. Oh yeah and just for the record I'm not from the south either, I'm from fircken New York State. Anyways now that I have gotten that out there what is your take on this one? ------------- "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgement that something else is more important than fear." -Ambrose Redmoon |
Replies:
Posted By: peachey
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 2:11pm
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do whats right for u mate dont take anyone elses opinion except yours ------------- MY SETUP finaaly i have the smart parts ion smart parts ion Halo b with rip drive 49ci 3000psi dye sticky grips |
Posted By: bluemunky42
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 2:53pm
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that guy is a fool. half the people in Iraq don't even want to be there, much less kill. ------------- 
http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity - http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity |
Posted By: AgentWhale007!`
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 2:56pm
 ------------- Paintball is lame.  |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 3:25pm
Thankfully the distasteful act that is this will be banned under the 28th admendment soon.. but thats not for here.
------------- 
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AgentWhale007!` wrote:Posted By: bluemunky42
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 3:28pm
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http://www.funkypages.com/flagburners/ - this is what happens to flagburners... -------------
http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity - http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity |
Posted By: Hades
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 3:30pm
I think your chances of a Second Coming are far better than your proposed ammendment happening. Good luck with getting both and I suggest starting to hold your breath about......now. Also your 28th Amendment will get Owned by something called the First Amendment. ------------- 
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Posted By: AgentWhale007!`
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 3:37pm
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Way to waste 4 years of college. ------------- Paintball is lame. |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 3:47pm
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*giggle* Yeah, that'll happen...
Sure, it makes a point - that a draft equals things out (assuming that things were different before/after the draft). Comparing Vietnam (draft) to now (no draft) is, well, wrong, and not informative at all as to the demographics of the current military. |
Posted By: djrock
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 3:57pm
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I bets that you whale! Burning the flag. ------------- 
It's been changed jackass. |
Posted By: Hysteria
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 3:59pm
| I was planning on joining the Marines, but as Graduation draws nearer, but the end of the war does not, I am starting to second guess it. |
Posted By: whack-a-mole
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 4:01pm
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The person that wrote that is a fool. Do what you think is right for you. If you are going to join the military after college I would get involved with ROTC while you are in college. That way when you go active you will be an officer and you will get more benifits. I have also been considering the military, lately. ------------- NASA and the Americans spent millions of dollars and hundreds of hours to develop a pen that would write in space.....The Russians used a pencil. |
Posted By: Apu
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 4:02pm
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I hate when people use the word ignorant when they don't know what it
means. Time to slap Irishgunner in the face with some hardcore irony!
------------- I need a new Sig... |
Posted By: bluemunky42
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 4:03pm
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one of the kids in my scout troop left for army boot camp about 6 weeks ago, i haven't heard from him yet. another guy i know is joining the marines as soon as he graduates high school. -------------
http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity - http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 4:04pm
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Clark, most of the officers in our military went to the Citidal/West Point. Do you know how hard it is to get into those?
Last time I checked, the LOWEST person enrolled at a military college is smarter the you and I. Hades, you say it will be trumped by the 1st admendment, but guess what, I have something you will just LOVE. If Congress made a law banning it, then yes, it's against the first admendment. That's what happened a few years ago, it was a law in Mass. I believe, and the Supreme court said it was unconstitional. That's why Congress is bypassing the Supreme Court all together and making it an admendment. The Supreme Court cannot say a Constitional Admendment is unconstitional because it's PART of the Constitution. It's one of those many loop holes in checks and balances. DOn't believe me (and I doubt you do) go check it up. -------------
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Posted By: Hysteria
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 4:14pm
Doubt that. |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 4:16pm
Yea, way to take my post out of context hysteria.  -------------
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Posted By: AgentWhale007!`
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 4:19pm
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Shens. Im going to go ahead and say that the established lawyer is smarter than a freshman in college. ------------- Paintball is lame. |
Posted By: cv222005
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 4:20pm
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i joind the army. i am not the smartest person out there, only graduated high school in 01. i joined to get out on my own and have some adventure. i went in as a parachute rigger. not the best job in the army. its just like any fast paced production job, but i had a few good times while i was there, jumped almost every month at least once out of some type of aircraft, mostly at night with a 45lb ruck, and my m16 or m249. probably the most rewarding part of my job was to know that every time someone jumped out of an aircraft they survived because i did my job right and packed that chute right. there is alot of bs to endure in the army too, but some times its worth it. i was rewarded once by being sent on a detail for the chaplin, not knowing it at the time, but someone put in a good word for me to go to this detail, and i ended up getting paid to play paintball with my roommate at a chaplins event. the millitary is what you make of it. its not always enjoyable, but you get the chance to try so much. some people do join to go to school because they have no other way to afford the heafty price of tuition. some join because they got into trouble and want to straighten out. or because they cant find work. or just to honor thier familys. theres too many reasons to mention why we who serve or have served, but the most inportant thing is every one has the chance to make something of them selves and contribute a small part back to this country. ------------- 
98C R/T M4 foregrips W/sightpost 3POS-M4 STOCK REMOTE |
Posted By: Predatorr
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 4:24pm
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My brother is joining up as well as everybody in my family. Most of us as officers but some enlisted. You disgust me whale. If you support flagburning then you should go join them. Sure 1st amendment whatever, im sure our forefathers didnt think about people burning the flag as freedom of speech. Oh and by the way, looking like fat bastard can only get you girls so many times...but it does look cool. |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 4:24pm
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Research, Linus... Practically ZERO percent of the officers in the Navy, Marines, or Air Force went to West Point - that's only Army. But that aside... The Citadel graduates about 4-500 officers per year. West Point graduates about 900 officers each year. According to the West Point web site, those 900 represent about 25% of new Army officers each year. Even throwing in the Citadel, that is less than half of new Army officers - and we still haven't even counted the other service branches. Then, of course, there is the little factoid that most people in the military are NOT officers. http://www.mfrc-dodqol.org/pdffiles/demo2003/SectionIIActiveDutyMembers.pdf - My data shows that among active duty personnel, only 16 percent are officers - the rest are enlisted. You shouldn't extrapolate from officers. According to that same source, only 86% of officers have a college degree. Less than 5% - that's FIVE PERCENT - of enlisted personnel have college degrees. On the average, the military is LESS educated than the country at large. As to academia - yes, the service academies are very selective, but not necessarily academically superior. I do not recall ever seeing any of the service academies in the top 20 listings in any category in the US News & World Report, which is the principal rater of US universities (I could be wrong, but that is my recollection). Purely academically, the service academies are good but not great.
Speak for yourself. I know several graduates of the Naval Academy and West Point. |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 4:27pm
:) |
Posted By: Predatorr
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 4:28pm
do we have a fan of austin powers? |
Posted By: bluemunky42
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 4:30pm
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Clark, navy doesn't go to West Point. nor do air force. i'm not sure about marines, but i don't think they do either. West Point is strictly army. -------------
http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity - http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 4:31pm
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Clark, I just LOVE how you jump to conclusions and say I didn't do research. Here, let me show you flaws in your arguement.
You say 'practicaly ZERO percent in the Navy, Marines or Air Froce went to west point' Ok, show me WHERE I said ANY went to West Point Here, let me calrify for you since you are so OBVIOSULY wrong. West Point = Army ONLY Citadel = Navy and Marines ONLY check it http://citadel.edu/nrotc/ - Out But I do stand corrected on me saying MOST come from one of those 2 places. -------------
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Posted By: AgentWhale007!`
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 4:35pm
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.... My Good God. Linus is the king of spin. ------------- Paintball is lame. |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 4:38pm
) but no, that title is reserved for Rush Limbaugh-------------
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Posted By: Hysteria
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 4:42pm
I did not. That was the only protion of the text that I was aiming "I doubt that" at, so I didn't see a reason to keep the rest. |
Posted By: Hysteria
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 4:49pm
Hence why he said "Practically zero come from there". |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 4:49pm
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That's where you said it, Linus. Military, not Army. I know perfectly well that West Point is Army - that was my point. There are some West Point grads in other service branches, but only due to transfers. Your statement was wrong as to the Army - it was really really wrong as to the military generally. |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 4:51pm
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Good god, Linus, even when you are trying to correct me you are wrong: http://citadel.edu/armyrotc/ - http://citadel.edu/armyrotc/
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 4:54pm
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Yeah, baby! |
Posted By: whack-a-mole
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 5:00pm
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Just in case someone was wondering the airforce goes to the airforce academy. ------------- NASA and the Americans spent millions of dollars and hundreds of hours to develop a pen that would write in space.....The Russians used a pencil. |
Posted By: AgentWhale007!`
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 5:01pm
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No way. ------------- Paintball is lame. |
Posted By: whack-a-mole
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 5:04pm
Well, no one had mentioned yet so I figured I'd mention it. ------------- NASA and the Americans spent millions of dollars and hundreds of hours to develop a pen that would write in space.....The Russians used a pencil. |
Posted By: TRAVELER
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 5:30pm
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West Point is for Army officers, Annapolis is for the Navy and Marine
Corps, and then there is the Air Force academy for the Air Force. These schools are exceedingly difficult to get into. The standards are high, and the curriculum is difficult. That's to be expected when you understand the duties required of our military officers. The numbers of college graduates among enlisted personel are low because the majority of those who enlist do so at the age of 18. There aren't very many 18 year old college graduates out there. The Army provides excellent educational benefits. The Army college fund, the GI bill, loan repayment programs and grants are available to any person who enlists. In most states now, the National Guard will pay the tuition of enlistees, allowing them to go to school while fulfilling their Guard contracts. That way you don't have to wait 2 to 4 years before you are able to attend school. Active duty soldiers are given the opportunity to study at local colleges and universities at the Army's expense. The choice of school depends of course on where the soldier happens to be posted. Those of you who have been in the military know that it is a secure place in which to work and live. It is similar to the social utopia many liberals envision when they are dreaming of their perfect society. The pay is reasonable, free healthcare for all soldiers and their families, good life insurance, educational benefits, housing, 30 days per year of paid vacation, plus most weekends off. There is training in almost every imaginable field, from training dogs to medical school. Being a soldier isn't as dangerous as one might think. It used to be that for every soldier who carried a gun in a combat area there were another ten in place to support him. That number is even greater now. You have doctors and nurses, dentists and lawyers, accountants and technicians, cooks and drivers. Pilots, divers, scientists, engineers, the list is endless. To the idiot who implied that the military was a waste of a college degree, where could it be better put to use? To make money to buy a house, a car, more toys? The military has a mission, a focus that many people find lacking in their lives. It appeals to people who want to know that they are doing something that is important. ------------- For I will wander to and fro, I'll go where I no one do know, |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 5:32pm
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Except for the whole totalitarian thing... ;)
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Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 5:33pm
Harvard has an Army ROTC, yet, do you see them chruning out Officers? Uh-uh. It's just a extra program they have. The Citadel is STILL a college. -------------
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Posted By: Jim Paint
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 5:34pm
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No
We are perfectly democratic as long as we avoid whatever the Soviet Union did. Wait....Arent we becoming more like them now? ------------- 
saepe fidelis |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 5:37pm
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In case you missed it. You said "only" - that makes you WRONG. Linus, you would get so much more respect around here if you would just admit it when you are wrong. Your first post was wrong, and every post since then has been wrong. We are all wrong sometimes, but instead of trying to weasel out of it, most people just admit it. You should too. And yes, Harvard ROTC does graduate officers - ten of them in 2004, I believe. Not exactly churning, but they do come from there as well. Don't see your point here, though. |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 5:41pm
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Clark, look at my first post, page 2, last thing I wrote. There ya go for my admission.
Now can you clarify something for me?
-------------
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 5:52pm
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Yep, you admitted you were wrong on that one point. How about the rest?
You're not making any sense... You said that Citadel was a Navy/Marines only school, when in fact they have an Army ROTC program. I said that West Point is an Army only school, which in fact it is. As I mentioned in a subsequent post, there are some West Point grads in other service branches, but that is due to inter-service transfers or other exceptional circumstances. You graduate from West Point an Army officer. Did you have another point that I missed? And what was the thing about Harvard? |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 5:53pm
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I think Traveler is saying that we should admire the military because it is like a mini-USSR. :) |
Posted By: TRAVELER
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 5:57pm
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I've been to Russia, one of my best childhood friends was from the
Soviet Union. His father and mother risked their lives to smuggle their
family out. How many people would go to so much trouble to leave the US? ------------- For I will wander to and fro, I'll go where I no one do know, |
Posted By: TRAVELER
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 6:00pm
How many years did you serve? And in what branch? What do you know of it? ------------- For I will wander to and fro, I'll go where I no one do know, |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 6:01pm
| Are you going to tell me that the military isn't essentially totalitarian? That's a tough argument to make... |
Posted By: Frank Zappa
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 6:03pm
The UUSSR (Underground Union of Soviet Socialist Republics)is still at large. Be careful of what you say, they WILL find you. ------------- It's all a conspiracy. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Edgar+Cayce&btnG=Google+Search - Edgar Cayce >you |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 6:04pm
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And in Soviet UUSSR, Army owns you. |
Posted By: Frank Zappa
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 6:05pm
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NOW youre finally understanding the seriousness of this situation. ------------- It's all a conspiracy. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Edgar+Cayce&btnG=Google+Search - Edgar Cayce >you |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 8:35pm
Clark..
Umm.. how is the army that? True, the army does control the units, but last I checked, the Army was voluntary. They don't suppress political views, there are soldiers that out speaking out about being in Iraq, are there not? They don't keep soldiers from praying, do they? They don't control ALL aspects of life, do they? -------------
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Posted By: Kristofer
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 8:37pm
I am joining the Marines as well. You shouldnt second guess it. If you want to be a Marine do it. Dont not do it ebcause of a war. When in the military you know there is a perfectly good chance you will go to war. So even if Iraq was calming down look at history. There will always be another war another day. So if you want to be one of the best. Join the Marines. if you are worried about war dont join any service because there is a chance you will go to war. |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 8:44pm
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Hysteria, tell me, why join the military if you just refuse to actually DO something when they ask you to?
If you're just doing it for the GI Bill money, go find a scholarship and don't waste our tax money. There are plenty out there if you look. -------------
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Posted By: Geoduck
Date Posted: 23 September 2005 at 11:29pm
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I believe that many of our fighting men and women came from low-income families and are very
hard-hearted and cruel because of their upbringing. That
doesn't mean that all of them are like that.
------------- Calling Bush dumb is like calling a headless man blind. 
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Posted By: whack-a-mole
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 12:25am
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People join the military for many different reasons. The military is comprised of many different types of people from loads of different backgrounds. No, all of them are definitly not like that. In fact, I would venture to guess that most of them are not like that. I know quite a few people that are in the military or have a military background and none of them fit your description. They are all good people. They each have their own reasons for joining. In the end, when you graduate basic training, no matter what your reasons for originally joining, you will be a totally different person and your reasoning will be forever changed. ------------- NASA and the Americans spent millions of dollars and hundreds of hours to develop a pen that would write in space.....The Russians used a pencil. |
Posted By: Hysteria
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 12:41am
I would rather join during peace time when there is a chance I go to war then join in wartime and going to war is unavoidable.
Where in the hell did you see me say that? |
Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 1:01am
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I hate people like the one he described in the opening post. Mostly
because they are disrespectful idiots that have no real point or system
of logic to back up anything they say and partly because it makes those
of us that have actual valid arguments against the war seem like we
hate our troops. My grandpa almost got mad at me for saying something
against the war because he got to experience the idiocy that came out
of some of the Vietnam protests first hand. It's one of the
misconceptions I hate most. That and if you hate the president you hate
the country. But whatever, people are going to think what they are
gonna think. It'd be different if people actually used logic and would
actually listen to reason but that not how society works now days.... Oh and as far as flag burning, first we ban flag burning then we ban saying things against the president, then we ban dissent of any kind. Sound good? -------------  |
Posted By: Project Irene
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 1:14am
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That is the most ridiculous thing I have heard on this pitiful thread yet. It amazes and ashames me to see the people on this thread, these so called american citizens, bashing and criticizing the very aspect of our civilization that allowed us to achieve these freedoms we have today. LIKE BEING ABLE TO DISRESPECT YOUR ARMED SERVICES IN A PUBLIC ENVIRONMENT. I have a HUGE respect for ANYONE that enters the armed forces, as many of my friends have. They join for their individual reasons but they are all fighting for the betterment and protection of our society. |
Posted By: TippmannBro
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 1:46am
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IrishGunner: I am sorry to say that your friends behavior and attitude toward the military is probably the absolute stupidest thing I have ever heard in my life. I understand that not everyone in this country agrees with the policies of our government. I understand that not everyone agrees with the concept of war, and not everyone thinks that fighting a war is right. Thats cool, way for those people to have their own opinions. There is nothing wrong with that. But for anyone in this country to not appreciate our military and support them, whatever their mission may be, is total stupidity. About the people in the military: People join the military for many reasons. I have tons of friends in the military. They are all from different backgrounds, different financial situations, and varying levels of intelligence. Yes, many people join the military because they have a poor financial background, and need a job or money for college. What an excellent way to get money for college: have an honorable profession and get a degree. Some people join the military because it is a "family tradition". Some people join because they just want to serve their country. Not everyone in our military is a high-class, wonderful person. They are just like you and me, with the exception that they have made a ton of sacrifices in order to be who they are. About military people being white-trash from the South, that is a stereotypical statement. Yes, I know people like that, but they are not the only type of people in the military. Let your friend meet another group of military people, like a few Air Force pilots or Navy submariners. They come from tons of backgrounds. About their education: the military is strictly volunteer, so anyone with a high school diploma or GED can enlist. All officers have to have a bachelors degree from college. I know some enlisted people that haven't been to college that are pure geniuses. I know some officers that are as dumb as a brick. Go figure, they are all from different backgrounds. And yes, the service academies (West Point, Annapolis, Citadel, and Air Force Academy) are all extremely selective. They recieve a great education and great training, and have to be fairly intelligent to graduate. But, service academies also provide the smallest amount of officer training, beaten out by Officer Training Schools and ROTC. And if you honestly think people join the military for the thrill of killing people, please seek psychiatric help. Federal penetentiaries are for people who get a thrill out of killing. So it is cool for people to have their own opinion of the military. And I understand that not everyone knows a lot about our military or knows a lot about the people in our military. The above paragraph was to give you a little background on those people. I hope you get to know a member of our military, as they are usually great people. Anyone willing to put their life on the line for millions of people that don't know them has to have something special about them. And it is that last fact that has your friend completely in the wrong. No one, no American citizen, no legal immigrant, no kid in high school, NO ONE EVER has the right to say that the people in our military are low class, uneducated, war-junkies with nothing better to do. I don't care what their opinion of our military is. I don't care if they think we should have sent the Care Bears to Iraq or Afghanistan or Vietnam or Korea or Germany or wherever. NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO NOT APPRECIATE OUR MILITARY AND THE PEOPLE THAT PUT THEIR LIVES ON THE LINE FOR THIS COUNTRY. You don't have to agree with them or even like them, but EVERYONE should appreciate them. Because you don't have to sleep safely in your home every night, with a job or school to go to the next day. And you don't have to have your own car, your computer, this forum, paintball, sports, girlfriends, boyfriends, family or anything. You don't have to have the right to have your opinion about our military, or the freedom to burn a flag, or whatever. The reason we have these things is simple: "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."- George Orwell Tell your friend, or anyone on this forum or anyone else with a similar attitude: I want to see THEM shooting a rifle in a firefight. I want to see THEM throw themselves on a grenade to save the rest of the members of their squad. I want to see THEM spend months and months at a time at sea ready at a moments notice to protect our country. I want to see THEM fly in an intense dogfight at 30,000 feet pulling 9 G's with enemy fighters on their tail. I WANT TO SEE THEM DEFEND OUR COUNTRY. They can't complain because they have not fought for our country and put their life on the line. And when you ask them if they would like to serve our country and defend our people, watch them back down and cower. They are scared of the fact that they might not be good enough to defend us, so they use the natural human response to fear, and they cower and say bad things about it. Challenge them, if they think that the military isn't any good, to join up and make it better. Because once they become a part of it, they will be able to understand what it means to make a sacrifice and have that special quality. And I write all of this in total confidence, because I am a part of our United States military. Not big part, but a part. I am in ROTC in college, I am using the military to pay for my education, and in return, I will defend our country's people. And, if the person has not graduated high school yet, remind them that they don't have the level of education that a military member does. That will evoke a quiet moment... ------------- WAR EAGLE!!! |
Posted By: SuperXero
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 1:47am
So, where is this guy from exactly? You say back home, do you mean another state, or country? He's definately the authority on worth, considering all the things he's done for his country/world/community... Take Canada for example, the military I am most familiar with. Do Canadians join the military for the sole purpose of killing? They'd be better off joining the FLQ... Canadians are known around the world as peacekeepers. I would argue that Americans and Canadians are essentially the same. Now switch the roles of Canadian and American troops. They are interchangable are they not? The only difference is the motivation for marching into another country. The Prime Minister/President's decision is the only thing that defines the military as "peacekeepers" or "war mongers who want to do nothing more than kill for the sake of killing". With that in mind, note that we don't have "Southern White Trash" therefore, his theory, when crossed with mine, is void. Service men deserve everyone's respect, much more than a damn Commie who opposes the people who without their existance, would have resulted in the destruction of the USA. Imagine there was no American Army in WWII. The Allies would be extremely weakened, the Nazi's would probably win out, the world would turn into a facist totalitarian state, in which your arse hole friend wouldn't have the freedom to say what he says. Edit: I have recently put in my application for the Canadian Armed Forces Reserves. I don't consider myself white trash. ------------- Tenacious and Versatile |
Posted By: whack-a-mole
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 1:55am
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Wow...well said TippmannBro, well said. I totally agree. I hope everyone reads this. ------------- NASA and the Americans spent millions of dollars and hundreds of hours to develop a pen that would write in space.....The Russians used a pencil. |
Posted By: Geoduck
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 2:08am
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Okay, listen up people who think I am wrong that many of our soldiers are bad apples. While I say "many" I don't mean all. I'm absolutely positive there are also many soldiers that fight and have good hearts while fighting, and fight for freedom and to secure democracy. But those that are just tossed onto the battlefield and forced to fend for themselves, they'll shoot and kill to keep themselves from dying. Sure, that's natural, every man and woman will defend himself if he and she has the means to. But what happens when they get bored? They'll go and shoot dogs, they might chase away a kid for staring at them the wrong way, they start becoming more and more prejudiced. After killing an insurgent, they might do awful and degrading things to their body. Not every soldier is perfect. Not every soldier is righteous. If you say that all soldiers are righteous, you should open your eyes. ------------- Calling Bush dumb is like calling a headless man blind.
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Posted By: SuperXero
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 2:11am
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Wait, what the hell are you talking about? Shooting kids? Staring at insurgents? Becoming prejudiced towards dogs?
Even if I had quoted you, it still wouldn't make sense. ------------- Tenacious and Versatile |
Posted By: whack-a-mole
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 2:16am
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No one is saying that all soldiers are righteous. Yes, there are some bad apples. Most people who aren't cut out for combat are weeded out in basic training and are given desk jobs and the sort. "When you enlist you are asked if you have any objections to war ( I can't remember exactly what they call the word for this in the military), if you answer no nothing happens. If you answer yes, a check is placed on your paperwork. You will not be put in a combat unit. You can even opt to not be put in a combat support unit. Not everyone in the military has to go to war. " -TippmannBro ------------- NASA and the Americans spent millions of dollars and hundreds of hours to develop a pen that would write in space.....The Russians used a pencil. |
Posted By: Geoduck
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 2:18am
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I was just giving a list of examples of what a soldier might do when
the camera isn't focused on him. The prejudice would be against the
Middle Eastern people who are different than most Americans, obviously. < This was in response to SuperXero. ------------- Calling Bush dumb is like calling a headless man blind.
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Posted By: TippmannBro
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 2:23am
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Its called being a conscientious objector.
------------- WAR EAGLE!!! |
Posted By: Cochise
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 9:28am
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Flag burning disguist me. Many of my relatives and friends have served in some type of military service. When I graduate high school I plan in joining the Marines or Army. Its the least I could do.
------------- Shot for your life! |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 9:49am
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Granted that Geoduck is making some rather idiotic posts, but seriously dude. Paraphrased:
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Posted By: bluemunky42
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 10:39am
Pretty stupid. -------------
http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity - http://www.freewebs.com/hazedinsanity |
Posted By: Linus
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 10:40am
Kris posted RIGHT after you... wanna call him a liar too? -------------
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Posted By: Geoduck
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 10:41am
THANK YOU! ------------- Calling Bush dumb is like calling a headless man blind.
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Posted By: whack-a-mole
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 11:16am
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I just don't think some of you will ever understand. Maybe when you get older.... ------------- NASA and the Americans spent millions of dollars and hundreds of hours to develop a pen that would write in space.....The Russians used a pencil. |
Posted By: Gerbil of Doom
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 6:49pm
Clark Kent, Geoduck, you two are some of the most ignorant people that I have ever seen. (ignorant as being a DA and not knowing what you talk about, since everyone wants to be correct). all TippmannBro was trying to say was that you DAs wouldn't even be able to do any of the things you do today if it wasn't for the military. Like TippmannBro said, you don't have to like anything about the military, just appreciate the fact that the military allows you to allow you to live a life that is what you make it; not what the government thinks you should do. And for you making fun of TippmannBro for only being partially involved, I AM in the military along with ROTC. I will be going to fight on my own free will, and will be leading other people that believe the same thing One more thing, those of you who were talking about people going crazy and chasing little kids and dogs, the only time something like that has ever happened was the veterans from Vietnam, and they were drafted. They didn't want to go, didn't want to do anything associated with the military, and mentally snapped because they did not want to accept reality and fight for their country just because someone was telling them to fight and they had no choice. To end this long post, I appreciate everyone of you that are defending the military and their business. Even I don't like the fact that i am going to fight, but I am still going to do it. I joined the military for the college money, but I am willing to work for it to, even if the work kills me; because, at least I know I accomplished something that will NEVER disrespect anyone I personally know, and I am proud of this fact. So, to those of you who don't agree with what the military is doing, just remember that you wouldnt be able to complain about it if the military wasnt doing what it is doing! ------------- ProCarbine 16" Dye Ultralite Egg II R/T Double Trigger Red Dye Grips Remote Line Autococker as a backup w/6 piece J&J kit, eclipse ram, Worr Frame. |
Posted By: southernboy51
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 7:26pm
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how do you live with yourself |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 8:58pm
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First off an historical lesson. Robert McNamara actually had to lower educational standards @1968 in order to bring individuals into the military who did not meet educational and or testing standards, Project 100,000, these individuals were id'd by a Army service number of US (for draftee) 5XXXXXXXX or 6XXXXXXXX as first numeral. And a US67XXXXXX meant that the draftee failed the minimal IQ test, but was accepted anyway to fill quotas. These soldiers performed in combat units with merit, in the rear area the clerks and jerks, well another story, but our civilian social structure is no differant, as control decreases, behavior suffers.
The Vietnam era was not the most educated, just a wide selection of poorly educated mixed in with collage students (who lost deferements due to low grade point avg) and a sprinkling of enlisted collage graduates. The Service academies only provide less than 20% of the officer corps of all services, ROTC and OCS provide the majority of the serving officers. The "Ring Knockers" have the edge in promotion and assignment, but what else is new. The initial "All Volunteer" post Vietnam Army of the 70's and 80's were not the great years for the services, the downsizing, the equipment obsolencense and extremely low training budgets created a questionable force in training, operation, and morale. With the Reagan Years the military began to get more modern and upgraded weaponry, quality training, quality life in pay, single serviceman food, housing, clothing, along with quality family dependant housing. The morale change was in itself a rebirth of the military. The military is Socialist as well as Totalitarian by design. It can not be a "democracy" in time of National Emergency, orders must be followed for somewhere in the maze there is a ryme and or reason that the trooper executing the order may not understand, but to not comply may mean failure in mission and lives lost by even the smallest delay. Soldiers are free to express political opinion, religion, and freedom of speech, as long as it is not harmfull to the morale and function of the whole. The sweat pours again the night, the long night, far from the minds sight Morning light bringing only that brief moment of relief Time, heals all, the faded memories Friends forgotten in the gray, Faded pages of photos past, sounds, the sounds We will never forget, For in our youth, we traded life For that moment of fear, we lived That moment of life so short, so dear Brothers long forgotten But not by those who Shared thier youth, and blood The bugles call, we watch again Giving but a soldiers glance We shake our heads, At those who will never understand. MSG JM Stanley (Ret) ------------- 
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Posted By: Geoduck
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 10:17pm
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OMG, guys, you make me seem like a communist. I'm just saying that our soldiers do their job but many of them actually enjoy manslaughter and their superiority in arms. ------------- Calling Bush dumb is like calling a headless man blind.
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 10:17pm
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Not entirely sure what a "DA" is (I presume you don't mean "district attorney") - please enlighten. As to ignorant - well, I only note that you apparently missed the point of my post... And TippmannBro said a lot more than what you attribute to him... But I think OS set the facts straight on a couple of points. Check his post. You are welcome to like the military all you want - I too favor a strong military. That does not, however, mean that the military consists of superheros and deities, nor does it mean that soldiers are necessarily our "best" in any meaning of that word. Nor does it make the military the single most important thing around. Supporting the military is great - irrationally bizarre delusions are not. |
Posted By: SuperXero
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 10:37pm
Fixed it for you. That's like saying, many social workers enjoy taking children away form their families. Maybe there are a few who do, but you can't base your thoughts on what you see in the movies. ------------- Tenacious and Versatile |
Posted By: Geoduck
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 10:40pm
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Define "many." By "many" I don't mean a majority. And social workers may enjoy taking children away from their families, if they are neglected children. I think this is about misinterpretation, where neither of us are wrong. ------------- Calling Bush dumb is like calling a headless man blind.
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Posted By: SuperXero
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 10:47pm
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Ok, so, a bunch of soldiers DO enjoy manslaughter, if they are terrorists threatening the safety of innocent lives. Is this what you are saying?
Either way, enjoy is not a good word to use. Edit: oh and my definition of many is: Alot, usually amounting to more than half. If you say many of the students are boys, I will conclude that at least 51% of the students are male. ------------- Tenacious and Versatile |
Posted By: TRAVELER
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 11:46pm
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No one who hasn't been a member of the military can have a informed opinion about it. Totalitarianism doesn't exist as defined. No one forces a soldier to volunteer for service. Recruiters are like used car salesmen in their tactics, but there is no arm twisting or threats. People join the military for various reasons. Many (including myself) joined for the educational benefits, others may join simply because they like the uniform. Whatever the reason, it's a serious choice to make. For some people it's the wrong choice. Most recruits benefit from the training and discipline they receive. Many kids in our public schools (and private ones) are considered to have low self esteem. It could be because of their looks, or how much money their parents make, or whatnot. Teachers do their best to students feel good about themselves, but many never seem to find themselves. New recruits to the military are an interesting lot. When they arrive they are all equal. Nothing in their background matters one bit to the Drill Sergeant. All are intimidated, made to run around, do pushups, yell "Drill sergeant yes Drill Sergeant" and such. They are broken down to the basic parts, and over the course of the next 8 or so weeks built back up. Self respect doesn't come from someone telling you how good you are, it comes from knowing that you are respectable. The training the military provides is intensely physical and mental, and completing it is no small accomplishment. I was 24 at the time I enlisted. I had worked various jobs while going to school, struggling with long hours and trying to survive on little pay. But nothing I had ever done could prepare me for what I would experience in the Army. I volunteered as a medical specialist (combat medic), to be assigned to an Airborne unit. The unit I ended up with was the 1st Ranger Battalion. 8 weeks of basic training, 10 weeks of medical training, 6 weeks of parachute training (normally 3 weeks, but I was injured before jump week and had to retake the course) 2 weeks of the Ranger Indoctrination Program, followed by pre Ranger training, and eventually 8 weeks of Ranger school. When I first arrived I hated it. I couldn't sleep at night because I dreaded what came with the morning (at 03:45). Recruits do not get leisure time, every waking hour is used for training, the only extra sleep you may get is in church on Sundays. One afternoon after I had been in training for about 2 weeks, something in me changed. I don't know what it was, but I felt it the instant it happened. I felt good, strong, healthy, able to handle whatever was thrown at me. The rest of my time in training wasn't so bad, and at times was actually enjoyable. The military system is quite unique. It isn't really totalitarianism. There is a code of conduct that officers follow when making decisions and issuing orders. Respect for those whom are to receive those orders is implicit. The biggest virtue required in soldiers is trust. Soldiers trust that their superiors have the training and ability to make sound decisions. Officers trust in the ability of those they command to do the jobs that are assigned to them. Trust in not highly valued in a totalitarian state. Soldiers do not do their duty out of fear of the consequences that may arrise if they fail. They do their duty because they realize it is something that must be done. Soldiers aquire a keen sense of responsibility in training, and realize that failing in their duty can cost them not only their own lives, but the lives of many others. Old soldier, you mentioned that the standards for enlistment were reduced during the Vietnam War. At the moment they are also reduced. The minimum acceptable score on the ASVAB has been reduced from a 31 to 21 for those who come from "underpriviliged circumstances". GED's are still not acceptable. A high school diploma is required (how someone can score under a 31 and have a diploma is a mystery to me). If a high school diploma is unobtainable, a certain minimum number of college credits may qualify a potential recruit. Testing standards are higher for those without diplomas than for those who have them. ------------- For I will wander to and fro, I'll go where I no one do know, |
Posted By: Geoduck
Date Posted: 24 September 2005 at 11:52pm
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I meant "many" as in a bunch. I would use "most" for more than 50%. "There were many protestors that got violent" doesn't mean to me that "Most of the protestors got violent." ------------- Calling Bush dumb is like calling a headless man blind.
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Posted By: SuperXero
Date Posted: 25 September 2005 at 1:02am
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I guess it would be proportional to the size of population in question.
Very nice post Traveler. ------------- Tenacious and Versatile |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 25 September 2005 at 3:55am
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This is a popular cop-out theory, and is obviously false. I know plenty of people without military experience who have very informed opinions about the military. In fact, this statement is so general (what is an "informed opinion") that it is completely self-reductionist. I note that this argument is a favorite of crack addicts and pot smokers around the world - "don't knock it if you haven't tried it". This is just a ludicrous claim.
You are too hung up on definitions. Totalitarianism, as commonly used, can fairly be ascribed to some aspects of military life. Only people in deep denial who feel some irrational need to defend the military against a perceived slur would think otherwise. Observe OS, who has more military experience than most/all other forumers, casually noting that the military has totalitarian aspects. To say that the military is totalitarian is both literally false and obviously true.
Agree completely. The makeup of the military is very varied. Generalizations are dangerous.
That's one of those generalizations. I know plenty of people in the military who have no particular physical or mental aptitude. For some branches, for some MOS'es, yes there are significant mental/physical challenges. This is not true in all cases. I'll keep restating my point: Military service is generally honorable, but in many cases just isn't as big of a deal as some people make it out to be. Without thinking hard I can name several close acquaintances for whom the military was either a temporary annoyance, or a waste of time, or otherwise not particularly useful, challenging, or memorable. Being a veteran generally counts in your favor, but can easily be outweighed or overshadowed by any number of other things. |
Posted By: Gerbil of Doom
Date Posted: 25 September 2005 at 6:30am
This is the people that you know that claim that the miltary was a waste of time and what not. ------------- ProCarbine 16" Dye Ultralite Egg II R/T Double Trigger Red Dye Grips Remote Line Autococker as a backup w/6 piece J&J kit, eclipse ram, Worr Frame. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 25 September 2005 at 8:19am
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Another misconception is the idea of the professional "killer". The military goes to great lengths in the physcological screening process to eliminate those who do have problems in the concept of kill by choice or kill as part of duty.
Unfortuanately military's do have the job of killing and breaking things, and which ever side does it better usually wins, but to have desensitized "killers" is not the goal of the US Military. Too many who have never carried a rifle and stood on the line actually are qualified to determine the state of mind of those who do, but in America that is the norm. From the "baby killer" taunts of Vietnam till today, there are those who do not understand what the military is asked to do, and how they must do it. The military is a job choice just as becoming a lawyer, or garbageman, there are those who find job satisfaction in being a greeter at Wal-Mart, and those who find job satisfaction in the wearing of the uniform, each has benifits that the individual finds to his needs and liking, nothing more nothing less anymore. I enlisted, in a time of the draft and yes under circumstance not really of a volunteer, but upon each re-enlistment had to make a choice between a job as a civilian with those set of employment problems, and or the military with those problems, and the idea of personal job satisfaction, and benifit made my decesion for 23 years. No where have I found the sense of Brotherhood, Comraderie or Faith in my peer to my right or left than in the military, where out here in the civilian world the ethic is "I will make my career on the bodies of my peers" in promotion and job security. You can not trust your peer in the cubical next to you when promotions or job security is on the line in the civilian world, where in the military we were a true "Band of Brothers". Too many in America will never understand that simple fact, that be it a draft or volunteer, someone has to perform the function of a military in our culture, for there are those in the world who would use thier military to force thier values on America if given half a chance. The true mission of an American soldier, sailor or airman is to ensure that any nation or cause that bodes ill will towards America must weigh the cost of doing so to thier own people or cause. -------------
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 25 September 2005 at 12:18pm
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Generally agree. |
Posted By: TRAVELER
Date Posted: 25 September 2005 at 4:04pm
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One who has not been in the military can not have an informed opinion
about it. No cop out. I can't give an informed opinion on the life of
an astronaut, having never been one myself. Not all things can be experienced vicariously. ------------- For I will wander to and fro, I'll go where I no one do know, |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 25 September 2005 at 5:13pm
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I have an informed opinion about the average education of the military. I have an informed opinion about the level of domestic violence in the military. I have an informed opinion about various personality traits common in the military. I have an informed opinion about many of the technologies used by the military. I have an informed opinion regarding the political impacts of military action. I have an informed opinion about a variety other aspects of military life. These informed opinions exist independantly of my military experience. Any person, uniformed or not, can have informed opinions about these things. Could I, without military experience, have an informed opinion about the finer points of SEAL boatcrew tactics? No - but neither could most of the military either. "The military" is not a single monolithic thing about which you can or can not have an opinion. The world is not that simple. Your statement is obviously wrong. I note, for the record, that our Secretary of Defense has no military experience. I guess he has no informed opinion about the military, and is just making military decisions blind. |