Hang tough, Cindy.

Badsmitty wrote: Hang tough, Cindy.

I smell liberal.

I don't agree with everything that Bush does, but I agree with him about not pulling out. I want the troops home too, but we just can't pull out now.

I wonder if her son volunteered for Iraq or if he was already in the service before the 9/11? If so, I think she is dishonoring him. It was something he was fighting for and now she is protesting it.

whack-a-mole wrote: I wonder if her son volunteered for Iraq or if he was already in the service before the 9/11? If so, I think she is dishonoring him. It was something he was fighting for and now she is protesting it.

Wikipedia wrote: Sheehan is the mother of the late U.S. Army Specialist Casey Austin Sheehan, who first joined the U.S. Army in May 2000. He re-enlisted in August 2003, at the age of 24. Casey was killed in action on April 4, 2004, just five days after his arrival in Sadr City, Iraq, during the liberation of Iraq. Casey had volunteered for a rescue mission in which he and several others were killed. Casey was posthumously awarded the Bronze Star Medal and the Purple Heart [1].

According to Cindy Sheehan, her son did NOT support the war in Iraq.

Skillet42565 wrote: Another reason to expand the death penalty...

The death penalty seems a little overkill just for taking the country to war.  Bush meant well, I am sure.

Why do you say that?

He didn't specify.  And I figured that it is completely idiotic to suggest that Sheehan should be executed for protesting, and I didn't think executing the Secret Service agents for doing their jobs was right...

That leaves Bush.

Clark Kent wrote: whack-a-mole wrote: I wonder if her son volunteered for Iraq or if he was already in the service before the 9/11? If so, I think she is dishonoring him. It was something he was fighting for and now she is protesting it.   Wikipedia wrote: Sheehan is the mother of the late U.S. Army Specialist Casey Austin Sheehan, who first joined the U.S. Army in May 2000. He re-enlisted in August 2003, at the age of 24. Casey was killed in action on April 4, 2004, just five days after his arrival in Sadr City, Iraq, during the liberation of Iraq. Casey had volunteered for a rescue mission in which he and several others were killed. Casey was posthumously awarded the Bronze Star Medal and the Purple Heart [1]. According to Cindy Sheehan, her son did NOT support the war in Iraq.

Well, why did he re-enlist if he knew there was a great chance that he would be asked to fight in a war that he didn't believe in? And he did volunteer for the mission, so he must have believed in something.

She participated in his conception, birthed him, raised him, loved him and buried him.  She can take whatever viewpoint about him that she wishes. 

Predatorr wrote: Badsmitty wrote: Hang tough, Cindy. I smell liberal.

Get your nose out of my crotch.

oldsoldier wrote: Failed war? Lets see, two less despotic regimes in the world, a logistical base for world terror organizations gone, one less regime filling mass graves, or does genocide only get noticed and stopped by a Democratic Administration (ie your defense of the 1 year and still going Bosnia adventure). Still have not heard of an option by your side on how to solve the problem other than Bush is wrong, oh and the day by day flip flop of your last candidate, who approved, disapproved, agreed, disagreed as his electorate demanded. Better there than here, ask any Londoner............

So let me get the OS logic straight here:

1. The actions we took in Bosnia which ended genocide and returned 1 million muslims to their homes is bad because it went over one year.

2. The actions we took in Iraq which is quickly leading to a civil war and is responsible for more deaths than Saddam Hussein's govt is good, even though it was declared Accomplished two years ago.

3. Our war in Iraq where the 9/11 attackers are not is somehow related to WWII where we declared war on a real enemy, not a form of warfare (terrorism).

4. You support a president that laughed at you and your buddies as you went off to fight in VN while he skirked his duty. Then you call him a veteran because he was AWOL for two years, but you hate Kerry who actually fought in combat,earned a silver star for valor and three purple hearts.

You become more ridiculous every single post. Keep posting.

oldsoldier wrote: Yep, logic and rednecks never seem to coexsist.

On the contary OS, Im a redneck and all of my redneck friends at school strongly support Bush. Because we know if Kerry would have won there would be no more Second Amendment rights. Kerry is so wishy washy its pathetic. I mean come on! pick a side and stick with it for christ's sake.

goodsmitty wrote: [ 4. You support a president that laughed at you and your buddies as you went off to fight in VN while he skirked his duty. Then you call him a veteran because he was AWOL for two years, but you hate Kerry who actually fought in combat,earned a silver star for valor and three purple hearts. You become more ridiculous every single post. Keep posting.

1. He dropped a grenade by his feet, because he pulled the pin and released the spoon. (He was not the only one injured in this incident)
2. He was hurt in a water skiing accident.  That's right, they were using the Patrol Boats to water ski around on the rivers.
3. The third purple heart is still under the eyes of contoversy, because reports differ, and Kerry signed the order himself.

I told myself I wouldn't participate in these political discussions, but this one was near and dear to my heart...

goodsmitty wrote: 2. The actions we took in Iraq which is quickly leading to a civil war and is responsible for more deaths than Saddam Hussein's govt is good, even though it was declared Accomplished two years ago.

This war is responsible for more INNOCENT deaths than Saddam Hussein's govt....Oh you got to be kidding......you can't be THAT ignorant???  A SINGLE mass grave revealed more than 10,000 bodies.  I know, because I was there to help dig it up.  So the civil war was there before we arrived, just in another form...Saddam against however disagreed with him. 

Sorry, but I just had to add this tid bit to the convo.  Back to paintball discussions. 

oldsoldier wrote: Yep, logic and rednecks never seem to coexsist. Those like myself who support Bush, are seen as inferior to those like yourself, the true masters of diversity. Well all I got to say is in 2008 you all can try again and see what happens. Maybe your Democratic candidate will have a true plan for world peace, love and understanding, and all terrorists will negotiate in good faith with America and leave us alone. Good luck..........

Keep posting. You are making my point better than I could hope to.

usafpilot07 wrote: goodsmitty wrote: [ 4. You support a president that laughed at you and your buddies as you went off to fight in VN while he skirked his duty. Then you call him a veteran because he was AWOL for two years, but you hate Kerry who actually fought in combat,earned a silver star for valor and three purple hearts. You become more ridiculous every single post. Keep posting. no....YOU become more ridiculous every single post.  If you would take an effort to become informed you might know a few facts of Kerry's purple hearts. Do you even know how he "earned" them? He dropped a grenade by his feet, because he pulled the pin and released the spoon. (He was not the only one injured in this incident) He was hurt in a water skiing accident.  That's right, they were using the Patrol Boats to water ski around on the rivers. The third purple heart is still under the eyes of contoversy, because reports differ, and Kerry signed the order himself. Bosnia was a failure because effective action was waylaid by the democrats.  Much like in Somalia when the secretary of defense and many top generals requested APC's and Tanks to use in the city but Bill Clinton refused to alllow them to ride armor'd vehicles into the country.

I don't know how many awards YOUhave written in YOUR time for YOUR soldiers, but they don't receive them for the above reasons. Find me the award citations and quit spamming. Even if you are right, at least he was in VN, and not hiding in the national guard, AWOL.

I would call Bosnia a success. One million muslims returned to their homes last year and are living in peace because of the peace that was negotiated between the Serbs, muslims, and croats at Wright Patterson AFB in Dayton OH, and the military action of a large coalition to ensure that peace. I don't remember seeing you crossing the Sava river in 1996, but I may be mistaken.

goodsmitty wrote: usafpilot07 wrote: goodsmitty wrote: [ 4. You support a president that laughed at you and your buddies as you went off to fight in VN while he skirked his duty. Then you call him a veteran because he was AWOL for two years, but you hate Kerry who actually fought in combat,earned a silver star for valor and three purple hearts. You become more ridiculous every single post. Keep posting. no....YOU become more ridiculous every single post.  If you would take an effort to become informed you might know a few facts of Kerry's purple hearts. Do you even know how he "earned" them? He dropped a grenade by his feet, because he pulled the pin and released the spoon. (He was not the only one injured in this incident) He was hurt in a water skiing accident.  That's right, they were using the Patrol Boats to water ski around on the rivers. The third purple heart is still under the eyes of contoversy, because reports differ, and Kerry signed the order himself. Bosnia was a failure because effective action was waylaid by the democrats.  Much like in Somalia when the secretary of defense and many top generals requested APC's and Tanks to use in the city but Bill Clinton refused to alllow them to ride armor'd vehicles into the country. I don't know how many awards YOUhave written in YOUR time for YOUR soldiers, but they don't receive them for the above reasons. Find me the award citations and quit spamming. Even if you are right, at least he was in VN, and not hiding in the national guard, AWOL. I would call Bosnia a success. One million muslims returned to their homes last year and are living in peace because of the peace that was negotiated between the Serbs, muslims, and croats at Wright Patterson AFB in Dayton OH, and the military action of a large coalition to ensure that peace. I don't remember seeing you crossing the Sava river in 1996, but I may be mistaken.

doctor wrote: I simply removed the piece of metal by lifting it out of the skin with forceps. I doubt that it penetrated more than 3 or 4 mm. It did not require probing to find it, did not require any anesthesia to remove it, and did not require any sutures to close the wound. The wound was covered with a bandaid.

I'll find the rest when I get home from school

Was that a Purple Heart Citation?

usafpilot07 wrote: no....YOU become more ridiculous every single post.  If you would take an effort to become informed you might know a few facts of Kerry's purple hearts. Do you even know how he "earned" them? He dropped a grenade by his feet, because he pulled the pin and released the spoon. (He was not the only one injured in this incident) He was hurt in a water skiing accident.  That's right, they were using the Patrol Boats to water ski around on the rivers. The third purple heart is still under the eyes of contoversy, because reports differ, and Kerry signed the order himself.

If you are going to claim to have the facts, you should at least have the facts.

The reports surrounding John Kerry's decorations vary quite a bit - not just the third.  You should acknowledge that if you are going to be "fair".

The first purple heart, by some accounts, was more or less self-inflicted.  By http://www.swiftvets.com/staticpages/index.php?page=Purple1 - this and http://www.learnedhand.com/kerryunfit.htm - this anti-Kerry account, the injury resulted from firing an M-79 grenade launcher too close, resulting in shrapnel from his own grenade.  That is quite different from your account.  Moreover, the central feature of this incident is that Kerry was shooting at the enemy at the time.  While Kerry was getting minor injuries from poor grenade handling during combat operations, GW Bush was getting papercuts at his deskjob back home.

You claim the second purple heart resulted from water skiing - please provide your source.  I was unable to find any source making this claim.  As for what did happen, again there are contradicting reports.  This one is often confused with the third purple heart.  There are claims of RPGs, rice paddies, underwater mines, and so forth - but no reliable source that I can find even hints at water skiing as the cause of the injury.

But again, there is no doubt that, even if all of the three purple hearts were silly and minor, Kerry was in Vietnam at the time, in harms way, and in the business of hunting and killing the enemy.  In the meantime, GW was busy protecting the skies of Alabama.

I note that you make no mention of the Bronze Star and Silver Star that Kerry also received.

I also refer you to the usually-reliable FactCheck, Snopes and Wikipedia sites for their discussions on this topic: 

http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html - http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp - http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry

Is it possible that all of Kerry's medals are not-quite-earned?  Sure.  But here is something that NOBODY disputes:  John Kerry served in Vietnam.  John Kerry saw combat.  John Kerry was shot at, and returned fire, on several occasions.  GW did none of those.

Nitpick at Kerry's record all you want - but it is, IMO, a grave insult to all combat veterans to imply that Kerry's military record is anything less than 1,000 times more honorable and valorous than GW's service record.

If you were ever in the military you will also realize that Kerry was an Officer. And wrote his own citations, or got his buddies to write the citations for him. If you have ever been to a military awards ceremony you know what I am talking about. Every Officer in Battalion gets an award, but only 3 enlisted guys do.

You are dissembling.

Fact:  Kerry was in Vietnam; Bush was not

Fact:  Kerry shot at the enemy; Bush did not

Fact:  Kerry was shot at by the enemy; Bush was not

Medals are not important.

I have seen officers get medels for showing up to inspection on time. If he was an Enlisted Man he would have NEVER gotten the Purple Heart for the M79 incedent because he was not wounded by the ENEMY.

Do you see the poeple who are in FF accidents all the time getting purple hearts? NO

Why?

Because they WERNT WOUNDED BY THE ENEMY!!!!

Combat mattered when Clinton was running against two successive combat veterans.  Combat mattered when people were nitpicking at Kerry's record.

Combat mattered to you just a couple of posts ago.

My view:  Combat matters when it favors "your" candidate, but doesn't matter when it favors the other guy.  That smells of hypocrisy.  (Not you specifically, Kristofer - I don't know your position - but political tools generally)

The fact of the matter is that Bush won, Kerry lost.

Im sick of debating it.....

Plus my teach just yelled at me: "This Anit Gov't Class"

So lets get into a good converstion about flow rates for low pressure markers so we can be physics oriented.

How is Bush's reelection relevant to this discussion?

The original discussion was about a protest about the war, then there was a little side discussion about Kerry's war record - how is Bush's reelection relevant?

Kristofer wrote: and clark. clinton was a complete fool.

A fool that graduated from Georgetown University and Yale Law School, and attended Oxford University on a Rhodes Scholarship.  We need more fools like those.

he had to be the worst president ever.

On what basis do you make this claim?  What makes him the worst President?  I can certainly think of some other worthy candidates for that title...

any president who goes to another nation to protest his own doesnt deserve to be an American President. he protested the Vietnam in the UK.

Semantics here...  Clinton was in England to study.  He generally opposed the war, and said so - both domestically and in the UK.  He did not go to England for the purpose of protesting.  He also didn't "protest his own" nation - he objected to the US involvement in the Vietnam war.  Since when does objecting to US foreign policy disqualify you for public office?  If anything, that should be a requirement!

And I dont care about military records. .... Personally I believe military experience in anyway is a necessity for the white house so they know how to respond with national security.

Make up your mind.

But - while we are on the topic, neither FDR nor Woodrow Wilson had any military experience, yet they managed wars just fine.  Of course, by this theory, shouldn't we also require our Secretaries of Defense to have some military experience?  Rumsfeld does not...

Kristofer wrote: Correct me if I am wrong but wasnt Rumsfeld in the Navy for a little while?

You are correct.  My bad.  http://www.defenselink.mil/bios/rumsfeld.html - http://www.defenselink.mil/bios/rumsfeld.html

Yep. I believe everyone should vote.

If you dont vote, you have no right to complain when somthing goes bad....

Snake6 wrote: If you were ever in the military you will also realize that Kerry was an Officer. And wrote his own citations, or got his buddies to write the citations for him. If you have ever been to a military awards ceremony you know what I am talking about. Every Officer in Battalion gets an award, but only 3 enlisted guys do.

Okay. Your name is snake "6" implying that you are an officer. The commander's callsign is always "6". Then you claim military expertise by your knowledge that officers write their own citations, which is utterly, completely asinine, ridiculous, and, well, stupid. Anyone can put another soldier in for an award, that is what keeps the system fair, and then it is awarded by the necessary levels of command above the individual to keep it fair. So, it is impossible for your "buddy" to write an award. I believe that a silver star for valor requires a General officer's approval.

So, since you talk poorly about officers, but use an officer's call sign; know absolutely nothing about the award process of the military, and think that a naval officers recollections from 30 years prior constitutes an award citation, I think that you are full of crap and know nothing about the military.

You are a wannabe. Quit talking about things you have no clue or I shall dice you up even more.

Smoke 6, out.

Linus wrote: Exactly: Bush won, Kerry lost, get used to it and live with it for the next 3 years. Nothing you guys can do to change it that isn't illegal.

No need to do anything illegal to bring them down, just ask Tom "The Slammer" Delay.

3 years is a long time.  That's prolly about 6000 dead Mom's apple pie eating American military men and women.  With the way things are going so far, the odds are in my favor.  Besides you'll be a Marine by then and won't be around to point that out to me will you?  Unless of course you only plan to play neocon lip service to the war effort.

Cindy has no idea how to honor her son.  He died so she acts like she can reverse that by flashing her son's face on a poster board to make it look like he died for no reason.  He was proud of what he accomplished im sure, and she acts like its the presidents fault he died.  People dont join the army and not think of the consequences.  Im pround of cindy's son but not cindy

^^^^^^^^^  Idiotic drivel for the mindless masses.

DBibeau855 wrote: Eh, Cindy did something to get herself arrested. I bet she planned it that way, if i wanted to the whole world to see what is going on, put the spotlight on myself, ide get myself arrested at an anti-war rally that i put on. I mean come on, seems simple to me.

It does seem rather likely that at a bare minimum she knew there was a high likelihood of getting arrested.  It certainly does not appear random.  Of course, after the Secret Service told her to move along, that should have settled any discussion on the matter.  She was given several warnings, and chose to stay put.

So, Snake "6"

You have watched some award ceremonies and you feel the enlisted didn't get enough awards, so that makes all of Kerry's awards suspect. Excellent extrapolation of your limited personal observations where you were a spectator, applied to a man with the courage to face combat.

What I wrote is indeed a contradiction. Officers cannot APPROVE their own citations, making it impossible to give you "buddy" a medal. That should clear it up.

Kerry's fishiest award still carries more weight than anything GW can present, because Kerry was in VN risking his life for his country, while GW was somewhere other than drill, protecting his worthless hide. There is no comparison.

In light of the facts, your experience is based on:

• watching someone else's award ceremonies
• no real military experience
• the badass call sign you gave yourself on the paintball field.

You are still a military wannabe talking crap you don't know about.

Snake6 wrote: I am not doubting that Kerry was in VN, what I am doubting is how much risk he actually took

You know Kerry was on a Swift boat, right?  You know what Swift boats did in Vietnam, right?