Ok instead of crowding up all the other topics with the whole "sniping vs. no sniping" Debate, Ive decided to put a poll specially designated for this. Now Argue all you want over this subject and nobody can flame for it cuz this was made for the debating purpose. Now personally I thing theres sniping in paintball and i could care less what people think, But i want to see some results on what others think. Now lets see some argueing.

BTW I WANT TO HEAR NOTHING OF ONE OF MY FIRST TOPICS OF THE IS NO SPIERS IN PAINTBALL! DO NOT MENTION IT!

1) Search please.

2) Wrong forum

You Wont See Me wrote: Vraptor, I'd suggest crawling in a really really deep hole to have a chance of surviving the nuclear fallout.

lmao, you know he's right...go hide

In before lock!!!

1. A skilled military shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place.
2. One who shoots at other people from a concealed place.

umm...........RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!! GET IN THE FALLOUT SHELTER!!!

i for one don't believe in snipers in paintball just for the fact that it's just way too inaccurate. IMO

if they come out with a barrel that magically always shoots straight and flat trejectory then...i guess there could be snipers in paintball BUT until then...oh well.

I really dont want to go into this.

But oh well,

Here We GO!

Dear,

[X]Clueless Newbie
[ ] Loser
[ ] AOLer
[ ] 12 year old
[ ] Troll
[ ] Pervert
[ ] Geek
[ ] Spammer
[ ] Wannabe
[ ] Haxxor
[ ] l337 d00d
[ ] Flamer
[ ] Whiner
[ ] Other: Retard, failure, moron, impotent fool.
[ ] noobie

You Are Being Flamed Because

[ ] You have created another ingenious idea
[ ] you have managed to push the limits of what the term  moron stands for by posting something you would be flamed for
[ ] You continued a long, stupid thread
[ ] You committed crimes against pork biproducts
[ ] You posted a 'YOU ALL SUCK' message
[X] The search button is you freind
[ ] You don't know which forum to post in
[ ] You just plain suck
[ ] You posted false information
[ ] You posted something totally uninteresting
[ ] You double posted double posted
[ ] YOU POSTED A MESSAGE ALL WRITTEN IN CAPS
[ ] You posted racist mumbo jumbo
[ ] I don't like your tone of voice
[ ] You are not civilized enough to post in these forums
[ ] Yuo mispeled evry sengle wurd.
[ ] you have discriminated a product that you would be obviously  flamed for
[X] repeated beating of a dead horse

In Punishment, You Must:


[X]Apologize to everybody on this forum
[ ] Jump into a bathtub while holding your monitor
[ ] Actually post something relevant
[ ] Read the FAQ
[ ] Become big al'es love mama
[X] be slapped repeadily
[ ] neuter your self to further prevent any form of a defective gene pool
[ ] Go stand in the middle of a Highway
[ ] Recite the Greek alphabet backwards
[ ] Take a bath in bleach
[ ] Give M. Jackson a reason to be guilty
[ ] All of the above

In Closing, I'd Like to Say:

[ ] since you are new we will let it slid this time
[ ] Get a life
[X] Never post again
[ ] I pity your dog
[X] Your IQ must be 7
[ ] Just leave with the last of your dignity
[ ] Your mom should be ashamed
[X]Dont waste our time
[ ] Go jump into some industrial equipment
[ ] All of the above

Yours Truly,

.

Snake6 wrote: I really dont want to go into this. But oh well, Here We GO! Dear, [X]Clueless Newbie [ ] Loser [ ] AOLer [ ] 12 year old [ ] Troll [ ] Pervert [ ] Geek [ ] Spammer [ ] Wannabe [ ] Haxxor [ ] l337 d00d [ ] Flamer [ ] Whiner [ ] Other: Retard, failure, moron, impotent fool. [ ] noobie You Are Being Flamed Because [ ] You have created another ingenious idea [ ] you have managed to push the limits of what the term  moron stands for by posting something you would be flamed for [ ] You continued a long, stupid thread [ ] You committed crimes against pork biproducts [ ] You posted a 'YOU ALL SUCK' message [X] The search button is you freind [ ] You don't know which forum to post in [ ] You just plain suck [ ] You posted false information [ ] You posted something totally uninteresting [ ] You double posted double posted [ ] YOU POSTED A MESSAGE ALL WRITTEN IN CAPS [ ] You posted racist mumbo jumbo [ ] I don't like your tone of voice [ ] You are not civilized enough to post in these forums [ ] Yuo mispeled evry sengle wurd. [ ] you have discriminated a product that you would be obviously  flamed for [X] repeated beating of a dead horse In Punishment, You Must: [X]Apologize to everybody on this forum [ ] Jump into a bathtub while holding your monitor [ ] Actually post something relevant [ ] Read the FAQ [ ] Become big al'es love mama [X] be slapped repeadily [ ] neuter your self to further prevent any form of a defective gene pool [ ] Go stand in the middle of a Highway [ ] Recite the Greek alphabet backwards [ ] Take a bath in bleach [ ] Give M. Jackson a reason to be guilty [ ] All of the above In Closing, I'd Like to Say: [ ] since you are new we will let it slid this time [ ] Get a life [X] Never post again [ ] I pity your dog [X] Your IQ must be 7 [ ] Just leave with the last of your dignity [ ] Your mom should be ashamed [X]Dont waste our time [ ] Go jump into some industrial equipment [ ] All of the above Yours Truly, Snake6 .

OUCH!!!  

 Nice Job Snake6

Snake,

    i just want to say:

[X] SCREW YOU!

Ask everyone else cuz theyre doin it to me too.

not being disresectful but did you even read snakes post. Than would ---- a lot of people off if you see where im coming from

Snake posted an old form that has been on the internet for at least a decade.  Most people have seen it about a zillion times by now.  Only new people get offended by that thing.  It is a joke.  Go with it.

Now chill.  If you are going to get offended that easily, then the internet is not for you.

ive never heard of it before. MOST people have. not me though. when i made this topic i said no flaming cuz this was made to show what people think. I didnt tell them. FLAME LIKE CRAZY AT ME CUZ I DECIDE TO MAKE ONE TOPIC FOR THIS SUBJECT.

People look: Instead of wasting space on other topics argueing about sniping. do it here. thats the only reason i did this

You didn't make one - you made two.  And on a subject that you would have known was unpopular, had you bothered to read more and post less. 

You violated netiquette on several levels, multiple times.  My suggestion to you is to not make any more threads for a couple of weeks, and read more instead.

ok

lets just get back on topic, then

Yeah strikes for starting rearded sniper posts. That would be awesome....

I mean specops bans people for saying there are no snipers in paintball, so we can do the oppisite..

People are welcome to argue that there are snipers in paintball.  We just can't have a zillion threads about it at the same time.

rossy11223 wrote: The whole discussion is really very pointless. Who cares if there are snipers in paintball or not?

Rossy is right. I can't believe I said that. Strange day I agree with him and the Eagles lost.

http://forum.specialopspaintball.com/index.php?act=ST&f=70&t=25271&s=17424430010e4ff888bab25d4ab04ced - http://forum.specialopspaintball.com/index.php?act=ST&f= 70&t=25271&s=17424430010e4ff888bab25d4ab04ced

I was checking out the spec ops forum and this is what i found. Of course no-one from this forum was responsible. Although it is strangely topical.

Mitchthesniper wrote: Snake6 wrote: I really dont want to go into this. But oh well, Here We GO! Dear, [X]Clueless Newbie [ ] Loser [ ] AOLer [ ] 12 year old [ ] Troll [ ] Pervert [ ] Geek [ ] Spammer [ ] Wannabe [ ] Haxxor [ ] l337 d00d [ ] Flamer [ ] Whiner [ ] Other: Retard, failure, moron, impotent fool. [ ] noobie You Are Being Flamed Because [ ] You have created another ingenious idea [ ] you have managed to push the limits of what the term  moron stands for by posting something you would be flamed for [ ] You continued a long, stupid thread [ ] You committed crimes against pork biproducts [ ] You posted a 'YOU ALL SUCK' message [X] The search button is you freind [ ] You don't know which forum to post in [ ] You just plain suck [ ] You posted false information [ ] You posted something totally uninteresting [ ] You double posted double posted [ ] YOU POSTED A MESSAGE ALL WRITTEN IN CAPS [ ] You posted racist mumbo jumbo [ ] I don't like your tone of voice [ ] You are not civilized enough to post in these forums [ ] Yuo mispeled evry sengle wurd. [ ] you have discriminated a product that you would be obviously  flamed for [X] repeated beating of a horse In Punishment, You Must: [X]Apologize to everybody on this forum [ ] Jump into a bathtub while holding your monitor [ ] Actually post something relevant [ ] Read the FAQ [ ] Become big al'es love mama [X] be slapped repeadily [ ] neuter your self to further prevent any form of a defective gene pool [ ] Go stand in the middle of a Highway [ ] Recite the Greek alphabet backwards [ ] Take a bath in bleach [ ] Give M. Jackson a reason to be guilty [ ] All of the above In Closing, I'd Like to Say: [ ] since you are new we will let it slid this time [ ] Get a life [X] Never post again [ ] I pity your dog [X] Your IQ must be 7 [ ] Just leave with the last of your dignity [ ] Your mom should be ashamed [X]Dont waste our time [ ] Go jump into some industrial equipment [ ] All of the above Yours Truly, Snake6 . OUCH!!!    Nice Job Snake6

I have never seen a better post than that.

djrock wrote: Special Ops was a huge annoyance a few months ago with them and there brigade.

Yeah I love how thier pceople come on here and flam us about how thier all 1337 5n1p3r5 and when I go over thier and try to have a  true discussion with them, I get banned and the topic deleted. Because they know they are wrong but they are to stupid to just admit it and go on....

You Wont See Me wrote: I'm sorry for your loss.

I'm just sorry you were found in some guys underwear drawer.

SR_Crewchief wrote: I can hear it now...the growns of "who woke the old man?" The answer is simple, everyone who has failed to pay attention to basic ballistics and small unit close tactics. It's very simple, the skills and tactics of a sniper do not effectively translate into the world of paintball...no matter how much your OPINION wants it too. Now to take this a little more in depth... BASIC Sniper Tactics and how they relate to paintball 101 First some basics need to be established. The game is paintball and for the purposes of this class it is played in the woods where the terrain dictates that you’ll be engaging each other most of the time at between 20 and 25 meters. (In other words close range) It is played most often by 2 opposing sides of roughly equal size. For all intent and purposes this game is modeled on military small unit combat. Now several you are going "whoo hoo, my kind of sniper country"…without knowing what makes a sniper. Many of you have gone to the dictionary and found a reference saying something to the effect that a sniper is someone who fires from concealment and have used this a your basis for your claim to being one in paintball. That's all well and dandy, except you ignore the rest of the definition. snip·er ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sn p r)n. A skilled military shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place. One who shoots at other people from a concealed place. Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth EditionCopyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. Now you’ll note that this expanded definition is still quite general in it scope, after all anyone who squats behind bush to fire is a sniper which is not the case. So, since the dictionary has not resolved this we must consult the experts for a better definition of what makes a sniper in our chosen environment. It happens that I’ve had the opportunity to do just that from time to time in my 22 years in the Army. In summary here are the extreme basics of what is an effective sniper: · A superior marksman · Expert knowledge in the art camouflage for concealment · The ability to approach the target without being detected · Engage the target from beyond effective range of return fire · The ability to engage the target without revealing your position · The ability to egress the area after successfully engaging the target without being positively identified and engaged The first three of these points are possible in the game of paintball, but do not make you a sniper, they just take some training and practice. Let’s look at them one at a time. A superior marksman Basically someone who’s shooting skills are well above that of the average player. No big problem here, skill levels very, some people are just plain better than others. Expert knowledge in the art camouflage for concealment This one is a little tougher. It takes knowledge of what will fool the eye into not seeing what is really there. It’s still doable though. Trained military have an advantage over the someone whose camouflage skills are solely based on hunting. Not because the non-military hunter is any less skilled but because of who the camouflage is intended to fool. But once armed with the knowledge of what the differences are this isn’t even a problem. So, yes this can be effectively applied to paintball. The ability to approach the target without being detected This one is a bigger problem. If just taken as being able to move close enough to a player that is already in place to make your shot undetected is very difficult. Since instinctively humans are hunters, our attention is automatically drawn to movement or things that are out of place. It’s takes someone that is extremely skilled in moving undected to pull this one off. But I have seen it done. I should add to this the ability to setup a position that provides an undetected position from which to shoot that covers an area you expect your opponent to move through. A basic ambush. Both require an undetected shooting position and can be effectively applied to paintball depending on skill level The last three points are where the concept of a sniper in paintball fails. Engage the target from beyond effective range of return fire No matter what you do, as long as everyone has the same approximate muzzle velocity, everyone has about the same effective range. Yes, that means Flatlines too. While Flatlines do have the ability, do to an aerodynamic backspin, shoot farther than other barrel systems the paintball still loses velocity at the same rate. What this means is that a paintball from a flatline loses the energy to break its shell at the same rate as one fired from a conventional barrel. The advantage of the flatline is initial flat trajectory that paintball has, which allows someone to fire under foliage that would otherwise break the ball. (The first failed point in being an effective sniper) The ability to engage the target without revealing your position Since the effective range is around 20-25m means that when you fire you have effectively revealed your general position. What I mean is this. Your shooting from such a close range that either the pop of your ball leaving the barrel or the sound of your bolt cycling (or both) will give your general position away to anyone with average hearing as far away as 40m. Unless you are only engaging 1 or 2 people or are extremely lucking you yourself can now be effectively counted as a mission kill. (The second failed point in being an effective sniper) The ability to egress the area after successfully engaging the target without being positively identified and engaged What this means is the ability move to a new shooting position after having engaged a target without being detected and counter-engaged your self. Since it’s been demonstrated that you can’t effectively engage a target without revealing your initial shooting position and exposing yourself to effective counter fire this one automatically fails. (The third failed point in being an effective sniper) Now just because you can’t effectively apply all of the above tactics of what makes an effective sniper doesn’t mean that the first 3 listed can’t be applied to paintball. Do they make you a sniper? No. But they do give you the ability to setup an effective close ambush. Just a word of advice here, bring along several friends and you might even be effective at it.

WAY WAY to long to read but of course i read it cause there is nothing else to do. heres my opinion there is no snipers in paintball simply because paintballs are inaccurate to a certain distance which isn't very far. there are people they "hide" which in paintball is pretty much going behind a tree and shooting. a real sniper in military are hundreds of yards away from people and making precise hits in paintball you are just shooting there is no precise shots unless your a foot away from people. But i know there are newbs that get all extrme about starting paintball to be a sniper but i think if your a sniper your scared to get shot you want to stay back and shoot but really i think newbs should be the first to run up middle and shoot it makes it alot easier to learn how to really play the game instead of trying to "snipe" people which never works by the time you actually shoot they hear where the sound is coming from so you can only stay concealed until you start shooting which is the whole point of the game

MY l33t sn1p3r barr3l is 50 1nch3s l0ng i can hit people from a mile away

i had to say something mean

I can't believe you people get this worked up over a silly disagreement about semantics.

As best I can tell, there is relatively little disagreement about actual tactics, but a bunch of disagreement about whether this tactic or that tactic qualifies as "sniper" under this definition or that definition.

*rolls eyes*

You are exactly right. What these noobs call "sniping" is just standard light infantry tactics as taught in any Army/Marine Infantry school. By calling themselves "snipers" the noobs suggest they are somthing that they are not, and in the process are destroying the image of REAL combat snipers that fought for your country and have the Honor of being called a Sniper.

Sargent Duck wrote: Vraptor wrote: u all r jealous cuz u aint got wut it takes to be a "sniper" And neither do you. Sniper rifles are extremely powerful rifles with a massive range to them (I heard there was a sniper in Afghanistan that got a 2 mile kill). If you put a sniper barrel on your gun, you don't automatically become a 1337 sniper. You're merely a smuck who wears a ghilie suit and shoots the same distance as everybody else. Got a flatline? still not a sniper. A sniper can take out targets from far away without fear of return fire. It doesn't take the other team long to take 10 steps and get into range to shoot you. Got the APEX? Well, range wise you may be somewhat, but do do you have a one shot/one kill? nope. why? the APEX sucks for accuracy at its extreme range. A sniper is a one shot one kill. Therefore, in paintball, the equipment is not there for a massively long distance one shot one kill shot. In conclusion? There is no snipeing in paintball, you're trolling, and this topic should be dead by now.

Duck just basicly won the argument.

oldsoldier wrote: Kid, and I use the term as fact, I was totin a XM-21 system before you, and maybe even before many of your parents were born. I do believe I have a lot more of what it takes to be a sniper than anyone on the forum, I even have the MOS designator awarded by the US Army. So who does not "got what it takes"

well i think you deserve the title "forum sniper" cuz U qualify

Sargent Duck wrote: [QUOTE=Vraptor]u all r jealous cuz u aint got wut it takes to be a "sniper"

[everything in these i typed]

Rambino wrote: Snake posted an old form that has been on the internet for at least a decade.  Most people have seen it about a zillion times by now.  Only new people get offended by that thing.  It is a joke.  Go with it. Now chill.  If you are going to get offended that easily, then the internet is not for you.

• I believe in paintball sniper's.  Sr. Crewchief's line of thought where he explains the sniper criteria is actually the reason I became a believer.  I used to think that because all markers were essentially equal (when legally chronographed/adjusted) that sniping in paintball was inapplicable.  The first time I read that post of his on the forum (several years ago) I realized that I had seen over the past 20 years of playing people who could meet every criteria.  True, some of it depended on the terrain as much as their skills and style but it didn't change the fact that they could, for instance, wait in a spot their opponents couldn't get to because of terrain and fire a flatline shot through an opening you couldn't arc a paintball back through to hit them.  In effect they could hide, engage, and depart without fear of retribution.
  
• That said, I've only met one, maybe two, players that could do it all (meet all the criteria) to be paintball snipers.  In my book that makes paintball snipers very rare.  So I really doubt that VRaptor or any of the rest of the "I'm a sniper 'cause I say so and if you don't accept it I'll through a tantrum" crowd are actually paintball snipers, or any other kind of sniper.  There are a few on the forum who have demonstrated sufficient tactical knowledge in their posts that if they said they were a paintball sniper, I'd take them seriously; but, they are not any of the dictionary definition/sniper poll posting poseurs.
• Another reason I think there are probably a few true paintball snipers out there has to do with the fact that it is impossible to prove a negative.  Everyone who says "this proves they don't exist" or "I've never seen one" has not played against every one of the estimated 10 million recreational paintball players across the globe; consequently, this leaves the existance of such players possible without proving their non-existance.
• To everyone who says claiming to be a sniper insults the military who earned that title, I offer the following:
1. I specify paintball sniper because I do not correlate anything that happens in paintball with the real world:  This is a game.  (This is also the reason I give more credence to well formulated logical arguments than I do to the quoting of technical manuals or dictionary definitions.)
   
2. Get over it.  The members of the military (designated snipers and all others) take an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.  Tacked on to the end of the Constitution is this little thing called the Bill of Rights, which among other things, talks about the importance of freedom of speech.  Basically, people have the right to say whatever they want (stupid or not).  The only legal limitations to that right come under issues of slander and public safety.
• Now, a little advice for those of you who freak out and respond to "sniper" threads with replys similar to the following:  "Oh no, it's another sniper thread!  I can't believe you're wasting my time with this.  Never post again you loser."  If it looks like it's a sniper thread, don't open it.  If you're already in it, and it turns into a sniper thread, leave.  You are the only ones wasting your time when you choose to reply to a thread you don't like by complaining about your time being wasted.  Duh!
• This post wouldn't be complete; however, without a figurative tip of my hat to the mature forum members who can effectively argue and support their points (whether I agree with them or not) without resorting to personal attacks such as name calling or demeaning insinuations.   To the Brihards, Darurs, Sr_Crewchiefs and others of their ilk on the forum; keep up the good work, your posts are always well-written, informative, and an example of mature/enlightened discussion.  Please consider my chapeau doffed in your general direction.
  
• Finally, and the reason I quoted the post at the beginning of my little tirade:  It needs to be acceptable/unacceptable for anyone to flame.  The actions of one person should not be singled out as inappropriate while at the same time excuses are made for similar actions by another no matter what the reason.  Flaming is flaming, whether it is done by a pro-sniper newb with one post or a platinum with 385,937,983 posts.  Excusing it because it is funny, has been done before, or only offends newbies is inappropriate and will eventually be detrimental to the forum. 
  
• As a sub-note on that, I don't think either individual in that exchange earned a strike for flaming with the checklists, but I would have understood if VRaptor got one for the language he chose in his.

PB is what the player's themselves make of it.

It just so happen's that circumstances might get you mowed over when trying to snipe. 

And while you are moving at a "very slow and precise pace", the guys on the other team have captured your flag and taken it back.

By the time you "reposition on their six" at your "very slow and precise pace", their "six" will be on the other side of the field.

As to advancing openly on a hidden sniper - who said anything about openly?  But advancing, yes - a squad of 3-4 coordinated people aggressively advancing (heck, even openly) will take out the "sniper" every time.  That's the best way to handle campers - you advance in coordinated fashion and overwhelm them.  Particuarly easy when they are wearing excessive camo gear, which makes them big, slow targets.

Sniping IS shooting from a concealed position. So sniping is crawling within range while being undetected, Shooting once, creating a kill, and remaining unseen by the rest of the OP4 until they are out.

Read a dictionary (yes i know its already been posted but make sure you understand this) : Someone who shoots other people from a concealed position.

By that definition, EVERYBODY is a sniper.  To paraphrase OS, what do you think the rest of us do - bring a brass band to announce our presence?

Everybody who plays woodsball tries to shoot from a concealed position. 

You have to be FORMER military to get the training?

I didn't realize there was a special l33t sniper training school for FORMER military folks.

EDIT - BTW, after intense search, I was able to find this top-secret photograph of a highly trained super-leet sniper.  Just so you know what you are aspiring to: