Well, i wouldnt be a good forumer if i never made a rediculously noobish post, but i am in a quandry.

here's the thing, i play woodsball and scenario and cant decide whether to get the flatline or the st!ffi. they cost about the same, and each has its advantages over the other.

here's some research ive done:

FLATLINE: longer range, flatter trajectory and that nifty foregrip makes it comfy.

ST!FFI: quitest barrel (from what ive read), lightest barrel, acurate, also, im not sure why, but i love carbon fiber!

they both seem like great barrels and, like stated earlier, they cost about the same, and ive been thinking about this for a while, so i would like your imput. PWEEZE!!!

well, to clear things up, im more of a neutral player. ill play anything but i prefer stalking around in the woods than to defending a bunker, i am conservative with paint, and im big. i hate it, and it serves a disadvantage, but o well. if i do play speedball, im a middle player because im easy to hit in the front and dont like lagging around in the back. still conservative with paint though.

i play in houston texas, so there are woods, but they are weird. they go from patches of open-ness to crap you cant hardly walk through.

i hope this cleas things up about play style.

i know what the apex is, and i dont want it. i just dont like it. too expensive (30 bucks more than a flatline), hard to use (taking that 5 seconds to adjust it perfectly is enough to get you lit up!), and to inaccurate (ive seen vids and it shot every which direction on the flatline mode thingy...)

no apex. preferably no BT...

DeTrevni wrote: i know what the apex is, and i dont want it. i just dont like it. too expensive (30 bucks more than a flatline), hard to use (taking that 5 seconds to adjust it perfectly is enough to get you lit up!), and to inaccurate (ive seen vids and it shot every which direction on the flatline mode thingy...) no apex. preferably no BT...

I paid 30 bucks less than the Flatline. Five seconds to adjust? Clearly you have no concept of what the Apex is. Couldn't have ever even had one in your hand, much less ever shot one. I'm playing speedball with it. Yes, one vid from a guy shooting mixed and old paint, and you are an expert? You need to read a little bit more of the posts here on the forum before you doom yourself to a paint finicky Flatline. But then, when we meet on the field, he, he, he! Never mind. Yes, the Apex is junk. That's the ticket.

Bruce A. Frank wrote: DeTrevni wrote: i know what the apex is, and i dont want it. i just dont like it. too expensive (30 bucks more than a flatline), hard to use (taking that 5 seconds to adjust it perfectly is enough to get you lit up!), and to inaccurate (ive seen vids and it shot every which direction on the flatline mode thingy...) no apex. preferably no BT... I paid 30 bucks less than the Flatline. Five seconds to adjust? Clearly you have no concept of what the Apex is. Couldn't have ever even had one in your hand, much less ever shot one. I'm playing speedball with it. Yes, one vid from a guy shooting mixed and old paint, and you are an expert? You need to read a little bit more of the posts here on the forum before you doom yourself to a paint finicky Flatline. But then, when we meet on the field, he, he, he! Never mind. Yes, the Apex is junk. That's the ticket.

he said he doesn't want the apex, lay off.

glazener24 wrote: Bruce A. Frank wrote: DeTrevni wrote: i know what the apex is, and i dont want it. i just dont like it. too expensive (30 bucks more than a flatline), hard to use (taking that 5 seconds to adjust it perfectly is enough to get you lit up!), and to inaccurate (ive seen vids and it shot every which direction on the flatline mode thingy...) no apex. preferably no BT... I paid 30 bucks less than the Flatline. Five seconds to adjust? Clearly you have no concept of what the Apex is. Couldn't have ever even had one in your hand, much less ever shot one. I'm playing speedball with it. Yes, one vid from a guy shooting mixed and old paint, and you are an expert? You need to read a little bit more of the posts here on the forum before you doom yourself to a paint finicky Flatline. But then, when we meet on the field, he, he, he! Never mind. Yes, the Apex is junk. That's the ticket. He said he doesn't want the Apex, lay off!!!

He is basing an evaluation on misconceptions and incomplete information...but, you will note, I agreed with him, the Apex is junk...shouldn't waste his money.

(BTW, I reserve the right to comment on any topic of which I have exceptional, some, or absolutely no knowledge about. I also may quote someone just so I can correct his spelling!)

dang bruce...yeah, ive never held or shot an apex, the five sec. thing was a random guess on twisting the front and stuff, and how did you get it 30 bucks cheaper than a $90 flatline? i saw it for like $120. also, i just dont want an apex. im not trying to argue, but i didnt deserve that...

mrjinglesthebum wrote: flatline because in the woods the flat trajectory is great for shootin in those tight spots between branches. it isnt the most accurate at long ranges but it sure is nice.

I own both the Flatline and the Apex. The Apex is more accurate with any paint, that I have tried so far, than the Flatline is with Marbs or All Star.

DeTrevni wrote: dang bruce...yeah, ive never held or shot an apex, the five sec. thing was a random guess on twisting the front and stuff, and how did you get it 30 bucks cheaper than a $90 flatline? i saw it for like $120. also, i just dont want an apex. im not trying to argue, but i didnt deserve that...

Deserve! I did include smiley faces, didn't I? Ebay! When the Flatline was on Ebay (NIB) just a couple of months ago common price was $119. I bought the brand new Apex for $89 on Ebay 3 weeks ago. Flatlines are getting cheap because of the Apex. I just sold my used Flatline on Ebay with the factory and an after market metal shroud for $66.

TippmanHotshot wrote: By the way, Stiffi all the way. If you angle your barrel up it will shoot just as far. Plus the Stiffi is lighter, stronger, and looks cool as heck. Although the Flatline looks pretty sweet too.

No, it won't. Read up on the physics of the backspin. Search for Flatline Theory here in the Forums.

TippmanHotshot wrote: By the way, I have read up on the Flatline and the physics of backspin, and I know that it shoots farther than a normal barrel if they are both aimed straight. However, I know what I'm talking about here. So just shut up and leave the nice little people alone.

You know, one of the rules I try to abide by on all discussion groups on the Internet is that how ever heated a discussion gets or how sharp some of the replies, I try to maintain a common civility. Ragging someone a bit in jest or to peak attention to a comment is one thing, but you are pitiful in your ridiculous rage. The only "little" person of which I am aware on this group is one who just manifest himself before my eyes.

You rage against the facts for what reason I do not know. A back spinning ball generates lift by a similar method as does a wing. Elevation of the angle of a non-back spinning ballistic-path projectile  trajectory has a finite distance of flight governed only by its initial velocity and the drag caused by its shape. Even as the forward velocity of a back spinning ball slows the spin continues to generate lift. If the angle of launch and the initial velocity is the same for both the spinning and non-spinning projectiles two things take place that effect the touch down point. First the back spinning ball retains forward velocity longer than the non-spinning ball because of reduced  drag. Second by climbing during the flight time  the back-spinning ball reaches a greater distance from the launch point before it gets pulled back to earth.

I have run the tests with chronographed markers sand bagged in place at the same angles of elevation. The back-spinning ball goes further, again and again and again.

Notable is that highly arched trajectories at the extreme limit of range are very difficult to place on target. A flatter trajectory is easier for the eye to follow and to judge needed adjustments to bring the ball on target.

At launch angles above a certain point, down range distance becomes less for the back spinning ball  because the generated lift is no longer fighting gravity so the spin causes the ball to curve back towards the launch point. Extreme example is shooting a back-spinning ball straight up. It will curve back and land behind you.

BTW, could you reference the paper where DaVinci  delt with back-spinning lift generating projectiles?

Don't make me start handing out strikes, here, people...

Referring to other people's IQs and dogs in the same sentence is not polite.  Stop it.

Play nice.

Rambino wrote: Don't make me start handing out strikes, here, people... Referring to other people's IQs and dogs in the same sentence is not polite.  Stop it. Play nice.

Thank you. Your intervention is welcome.

TampaNighthawk wrote: I'm kinda in the same situation as you. I'm 6'5" about 285#. I just had knee surgery for a torn miniscus and I'm a mostly a woodsball player. I was thinking about adding a flatline to my A5, but after reading this forum I'm beginning to wonder. I'm planning to go to Wayne's world finale this december. I know the Tippmann truck will be there. I plan on talking to the techs there.

While you are at it take a look at the Apex.

TampaNighthawk wrote: Oh yea where can I find info on the ffi?

Go to http://www.pbreview.com - http://www.pbreview.com for reviews on the Stiffi, the Flatline and the Apex.

Jesus Bruce, bad day?

Maybe you should lay with your Apex or something. I personally don't like it because you have to adjust. I don't care if it takes a second to adjust or less- you still have to re-adjust if a new target pops out. While you're "olive bombing" one guy and someone else opens fire from directly in front of you but too short of your olive bomb, you can't snap right at him and shoot. Sure, you could leave it in a specific setting, but whats the point for the Apex?

I don't even like the Flatline. No point in shooting long range if everything within a mile radius can hear it go off (sound travels faster than a paintball, and at long range you can step to the side of a ball from the Flatline). And yes, you can dodge them. They aren't traveling 300 fps when they reach you, thats only initial velocity after acceleration reaches its peak.

LordJovian wrote: Jesus Bruce, bad day? Maybe you should lay with your Apex or something. I personally don't like it because you have to adjust. I don't care if it takes a second to adjust or less- you still have to re-adjust if a new target pops out. While you're "olive bombing" one guy and someone else opens fire from directly in front of you but too short of your olive bomb, you can't snap right at him and shoot. Sure, you could leave it in a specific setting, but whats the point for the Apex? I don't even like the Flatline. No point in shooting long range if everything within a mile radius can hear it go off (sound travels faster than a paintball, and at long range you can step to the side of a ball from the Flatline). And yes, you can dodge them. They aren't traveling 300 fps when they reach you, thats only initial velocity after acceleration reaches its peak.

Bad day? Certainly not. Always in a good mood and eager to enlighten. Especially those who use Jesus' name as an invective, oh cast out emperor of Jupiter. 

Interesting you should raise this tired misconception. I had exactly that situation last Friday's speedball session. I was trying the "dive bomb" adjustment to take out a competitor on the back center dog house. Someone popped out at the 50 running straight at me (I was on my back line). I swung to fire on him. Two shot walk. Second shot center chest!

Jo-Jo, you speak as if you use the sights in close quarters. And the whole Speedball field is close quarters. Everyone I know watches the flight of his paint to "locate" his target. So you'd set your sights in Flatline mode and cannot figure out how to hit the target because the trajectory is no longer rainbow shaped?

One could play the whole game with the Apex set, and left there, in any curve mode and be equally effective. When a barrel puts shot after shot through the same hole, you've got your man.

I have reviewed some discussion groups that archive years of posts. It appears that virtually exactly the same uninformed arguments were made when the Flatline was first introduced. ("Well, what do you do if you need that arching trajectory to get just over the bunker, and all you have is that flat trajectory?")

Apex is new. It works as advertised (better!) and is accurate, placing ball after ball to the same point of aim. And it has the same percentage of detractors as did the Flatline when new. (And the Apex is superior to the Flatline).  I am also amazed that many of the detractors, who claim it unsuitable for "real life" high speed action, also call it a "cheater barrel." How can one cheat with something that is so ineffective?

As for noise, only a few barrels make a Tippmann any quieter. In the heat of battle, one cannot duck for every report heard (unless you just crawl in a hole and hide)...and truly, if my first shot is on target, at usual shot range (100-150 ft) you cannot duck out of the way. Calculate flight time! From the report until the ball strikes the target is too short an increment of a second for you to move out of the way.

Woodsball: If you have time to sight your shot (take aim) you have time to compensate for the flight path or adjust the barrel! Let's see, that is a pretty long shot at that guy behind that tree. I am going to have to elevate the muzzel just a bit to compensate for the arc of the trajectory (with my Stiffi or any other non-back-spinning barrel). Really!

OOOO! i just had an epiphony! how about i just drop it all and buy a $30 J&J ceramic and buy some other cool crap for the same amount of money? opinions on this are also welcome!