History assignment for OS:  Compare and contrast the current riots in France with the race riots in the US in the 60's.  Explain commonalities and differences.

(I'll summarize:  Bad things and riots happen at different times for different reasons.  Generalizing from limited data, like OS did in his post, is incorrect)

I believe that if you go to mexico youll understand, if you go into a place there and fill out a job application they will give the job to the mexican guy. (dont even say OMG WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE MEXICANS becuase we all know thats were talking about)

Ok im just gonna stop before I get guested again

the only problem i have with aliens are there illegal, there are legal ways to be here, they chose a diffrent rought, i know many people who are here illegealy, some of them go to college and one of the top persons in last years senior class was here illegaly. im glad they do the jobs many of us lazy Americans are not willing to do, i dont think whether they are here legaly or not should determan there pay, but if they are payed the same wages as a citizen you'll be paying about $3 for a head of letous (SP), not sure what your paying now but i pay about $1 this applys to other fruit and vegies as well.... just my thoughts

Im with Hades on this one. You see someone, you ASSUME they are illegal. You dont know, its called stereotyping....

Sammy wrote: You asked to describe. I gave my description of what I have seen, that isn't sterotyping, that is generalizing.

No.  Because you didn't describe "illegal immigrants" - you described "people who have the look you associate with illegal immigrants", and that is pretty much the definition of stererotyping.  Unless, of course, you checked the citizenship/visa status of each of those workers...

And I don't usually see six whites packed into the the back of a ten year old pickup truck.

Visit Arkansas.

I think it is realtively easy to tell the illegal hispanic immigrants apart from citizens in California.

Your ignorance is so astounding as to defy logic.  What you actually mean is that you can tell hispanic from white, and you presume that all hispanics are illegal immigrants and whites are not.

Cluephone - there are LOADS of citizens and legal immigrants of Mexican descent living in SoCal that are visually indistinguishable from illegal immigrants.

You said we probbally couldn't even tell the difference between an immigrant and a citizen, I say I can.

And on what do you base that claim?  How many passports/visas have you inspected?

TheDarkRealms wrote: I agree with you on the Legal immigrants, the ones that pay taxes, have "jumped through all the hoops", they are not the ones that I have a problem with.

On a side point - many illegal immigrants pay taxes, mostly social security taxes, because they are working on fake/stolen papers.  These illegal immigrants are paying millions of dollars every year into social security, and they are NOT eligible for SS benefits.  Several economists have stated that we have illegal immigrants to thank for the continued existence of social security.  By some worst-case estimates SS would have collapsed by now without illegal immigrants.

And, of course, the illegal immigrants that pay no taxes because they are working without papers are mostly making less than minimum wage, and wouldn't be paying very much in taxes anyway if they were working those jobs legally.  So not much tax revenue is lost there either.

The whole "they aren't paying taxes" part is seriously overstated on a regular basis.

TheDarkRealms wrote: It is interesting that you would bring up a point like that. And actually yes I have lived in other countries and yes I have abided by their rules. [pedantic obvious obvious observations about Saudi deleted]

Way to completely miss the point of Panda's post...

(And, BTW, living on a military base, in a diplomatic compound, or similar situations is only marginally more useful than staying at the local Club Med.  If you were merely stationed in Saudi I wouldn't go around saying that you "lived there".  Just a thought.)

TheDarkRealms wrote: I have Hispanic friends, it’s not the race that’s the problem, its people that have the attitude that they deserve what they don't fight/pay/live for.

Why do you say that there is this entitlement?  Most illegals I know are perfectly aware that they are breaking the rules, but simply, as a factual matter (like Hades said), would rather break an immigration rule here than live "legally" in the craphole they came from.

And speaking of entitlement - how is it that most Americans feel so entitled to have their country to themselves, just because they happened to be born here (through no merit of theirs)?

Person A happens to be born in the US, Person B happens to be born in Crapholeland.  How does that make Person B more entitled to the benefits of living in the US than Person A?  Instead of asking what Person B did to earn the right to be in the US, shouldn't you ask what Person A did to earn that right?

So some pay SS, but what good does that do us anyway? Are you expecting SS to be around when you will need it? I nope not.

Now that's a copout if there ever was.

You:  They don't pay taxes.

Me:  Yes they do.

You:  It doesn't matter that they pay taxes, because taxes aren't important.

At least Legal immigrants pay all the required taxes.

But you just said that didn't matter.  And like I said, many legal immigrants acually pay LESS taxes than illegal immigrants.

There are just those of us that do believe that to work in our country everyone should be doing it legally. And yes I am just as against drug dealers as I am this.

Isn't that a bit dogmatic?  Particularly for someone living in a country that was founded by a bunch of traitors and criminals?

wow some members here are...just...i don't know...ignorant.

1)  SS is a problem because of the baby boomers that are going to be using it in the coming years.  that is MILLIONS of people using it.  what happens to US in the future is that we will have to pay MORE to support those people that will live LONGER and use HIGHER medication/technology to stay alive.  unless something is done. 

2)  i can count the number of immigrants at work, almost all the **edited**ty jobs back there they do, why?  because are lazy ass americans will not get payed $7 an hour to wash dishes, clean **edited**, and do other stuff that is not worth the pay.

3)  god damnit say the word right!!!  MUSLIM.  **edited**.  and no it is not the religion that is the problem it is the extremists that are the problem.  they are too stubborn to work for a common goal and would rather kill eachother.  you think christianity is good?  look back in history and tell me they have not spilled more blood than the muslim's.  you have to remember, the Muslim faith is still new and going through many changes, and this is all before our eyes.  christianity changed long before the Muslim religion was brought about.  so please don't be a dumb american and go about saying it is the religion that is the problem...because if it is their religion that is the problem then it every single religion's problem.

4)  so from some of the people on this board, you want to come to Arizona in the summer time...115degrees...and work outside from 4am to 5pm...hunched over picking fruits and veggies for little money and no benefits?  please, you are a **edited**ing lier if you said yes.  prices would increase way beyound $8 a head for lettuce. 

5)  and you think you have earned a right to say you are american?  why.  tell me one good reason.  you were born here.  that's it.  you lived in another country.  that's it.  the real americans are the ones that stood up for something and risked their lives to make a difference.  the real americans are the ones in iraq fighting for a war they shouldn't be fighting so that we can sit here and debate about immigration.  the real americans gave their blood and lives for us.  i was born in america, i love america, but i have not earned the right to say that someone from another country trying to make their life and their families life a little better does not deserve a chance.

6)  reforms are needed to solve this.  easier citizenship.  worker's visas.  and less ignorance and more cooperation are needed.  if you don't want to help and only **edited** about what is the problem, you my friend, are the problem.

***end rant***

-barriga

Welcome to the forum.  Our poor language filter works plenty hard, and doesn't need to be strained like that.  Please control your language, and check the various stickies for language guidelines.

Strike for you.

Rambino wrote: Welcome to the forum.  Our poor language filter works plenty hard, and doesn't need to be strained like that.  Please control your language, and check the various stickies for language guidelines. Strike for you.

stupid people piss me off when they talk about my culture.

and i acutally like that what it says about the strike...looks funny.

TheDarkRealms wrote: Clark Kent by saying I missed the point and I lived in a country club it shows how little you actually know about life around the world. I suppose the guys fighting right now and living in tents are the same as you just described me. I am infantry, you may be right about some of the people in the military but you are wrong about me and those that are on front lines or in guard towers or walking perimeters or leading convoys over mined roads. I believe you are right that some do pay taxes (I have seen no figures either way so I will make no assumption as to numbers). However if they are paying more taxes for being illegal and it costs them more to do so. Common sense would say that they would become legal immigrants. I don't understand your argument about them paying more, that seems to be their choice (I don't know any in that situation so I don't understand it and it does not follow common sense). You have also agreed that they know they are wrong, I could not live like that so again I don’t understand how others could. I know how easy it is to become an American. I have friends that have done it. The only thing I said didn’t matter was that those that paid SS taxes. I said nothing about those that pay full taxes. On the point of right by birth. I agree with you. I have no more right to live and work in this country than any other citizen that has chosen to become an American. Their options in my opinion: Become a legal immigrant, make the money needed to become a citizen and become a citizen. Clark Kent wrote: Isn't that a bit dogmatic? Particularly for someone living in a country that was founded by a bunch of traitors and criminals? We may have been founded by traitors and criminals, but name one nation in the world that does not have a similar beginning. By the same token illegal immigrants come to the US, gain enough population and take over US by force. Is that what you are suggesting of the future? (this is just a question I am not being malicious) I cannot change my countries origins just as they cannot change theirs. So what do you want me to do about our founders? darkSIDEofMOON wrote: 1. no argument 2. I have done one of those jobs 3. lol, sorry my dictionary doesn’t have a problem with my spelling 4. As I said I have done one of those jobs 5. I am INFANTRY, I spent 8 years serving my country. I have been overseas serving. I may never have been in combat but that is a bitter sweet that I will have to live with the rest of my life.

actually i was stating that to be born in america and living in a different country means little. 

i do applaud you for serving your country because i doubt i could do what you have choosen your life to.

but there are issues that are deeper and harder to comprehend than just saying "you should become an american citizen."  research the topic more, ask immigrants the process and why or why not they have or have not done it. 

i am not saying i know ALL about this but i know the common arguments that people make and have done several researches about this topic.  it is not a black and white issue, but people try to make it seem like that.  there are gray areas and there are areas that people do not want to understand because they themselves know little about it. 

overall like i stated before, this needs to be delt with now and the reforms need to enacted.  but until we get people in offices that can do this we are not moving anywhere but in circles.

TheDarkRealms wrote: Clark Kent by saying I missed the point and I lived in a country club it shows how little you actually know about life around the world.

That's funny.   :)

More to the point, you missed mine as well as Panda's.

Panda was noting that given a choice between breaking an immigration law and living in Crapholeland, there is no choice.  You responded with a "when in Rome" story about how you don't look Muslim women in the eyes.  Completely irrelevant.

My point (a mere aside, really, and not particularly important to the discussion) was not that an army camp is a country club, but that living on base does not make you much more qualified to comment on life in a country than your average tourist - because when living on base (or even, to a lesser extent, living off base but working on base) you are essentially surrounded by a coccoon of America, or at least a coccoon of army.  Leading convoys over mined roads is so far from the life of the average Saudi as to render your experience irrelevant to understanding their experience.  Truly living in a country means living with the locals, working with the locals, dating the locals, eating their food, going to their schools...  But that isn't really important.  My main point was that you missed Panda's point.

darkrealms wrote: I believe you are right that some do pay taxes (I have seen no figures either way so I will make no assumption as to numbers).

I'll help you out.  http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0321/p02s01-ussc.html - Here , http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/14/politics/main549153.shtml - here , and http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/10128/printer - here .  According to those numbers, illegals contribute hundreds of millions each year in income taxes, and BILLIONS in social security taxes.  And those billions are free to us - the people paying in are not eligible for benefits.

Why so low on regular income taxes?  I gave the reason already - these people are living in poverty.  Poor people don't pay much/any income tax, but do pay SS tax at the same rate as everybody else.

So, to reiterate - as a group, illegals make such low wages that most of them would not pay much/any income tax even if they were legal, so that's essentially a wash.  They would pay SS tax if they were legal, but then they would also qualify for SS benefits, which would probably be a net loss for the country, given how SS is going.  Many illegals, however, do contribute FREE money (in the billions each year) to our struggling social security system.

darkrealms wrote: However if they are paying more taxes for being illegal and it costs them more to do so. Common sense would say that they would become legal immigrants. I don't understand your argument about them paying more, that seems to be their choice (I don't know any in that situation so I don't understand it and it does not follow common sense).

I am stunned by your total and utter lack of even the most basic comprehension of how immigration laws work.  You can't just "choose" to be legal.  That's just not how the laws work.  Your comments make no sense whatsoever.

darkrealms wrote: You have also agreed that they know they are wrong, I could not live like that so again I don’t understand how others could.

I didn't say "wrong" - I said illegal.  Given the choice between "illegal" and "starving", I choose "illegal".  Pretty easy choice to me.

I know how easy it is to become an American. I have friends that have done it.

Not to be rude, but - you have GOT to be kidding me.  "EASY"?

It is not "easy" to become American for 99.99% of the people who would like to.  For most, it is flat out impossible.  For the rest, it is simply obscenely difficult, timeconsuming, and expensive.  There are a very few paths to citizenship that are "easy", but the people that are eligible for those paths are few and far between.  For your average illegal migrant worker, legal status is simply not available.

The only thing I said didn’t matter was that those that paid SS taxes. I said nothing about those that pay full taxes.

Again, you are focusing on the wrong thing.  As I mentioned above, at that income level, SS taxes FAR outstrip regular income taxes.  SS taxes is what this is all about.  People who make $5/hour don't pay much or any regular income taxes, whether they are legal or not.

darkrealms wrote: Their options in my opinion: Become a legal immigrant, make the money needed to become a citizen and become a citizen.

And therein lies the center of your misunderstanding.  Most people are simply not eligible for even a temporary work visa under our laws, let alone citizenship.

We may have been founded by traitors and criminals, but name one nation in the world that does not have a similar beginning.

That would be most of them.  We were a breakaway colony.  That is a fairly unusual way to start a country.  Most countries evolved over time through combinations of smaller fiefdoms.

By the same token illegal immigrants come to the US, gain enough population and take over US by force. Is that what you are suggesting of the future? (this is just a question I am not being malicious)

I do not understand your question.

I cannot change my countries origins just as they cannot change theirs. So what do you want me to do about our founders?

Nothing.  I was simply bemused by your dogmatic adherence to the letter of the law despite rather obvious flaws in application.

The largest impact of immgrants that I see are laborors in farming and construction.  For the most part they are very cheap labor, do sub-par work but get it done.

The farmer owners complain about reliability of the immagrant's and with construction the lack of perfection is evedent in the instances that I've seen their work, but it get's done.

Sammy - see EJP's post for the logical faults in your post.  For empirical evidence, watch Born in East L.A.

Darkrealms - My point with the criminal/traitor bit had nothing to do with violence, and everything to do with disobeying laws.  Your principal concern with illegals appears to be simply that they are disobeying laws; my point was that there are times when disobeying laws is the right thing to do, and to condemn something PURELY because of its illegality without investigating the underlying issues is a bit silly - particularly for an American.

I have no doubt that your experience with Army-gruntism and the Middle East exceed mine - my experience with both are fairly limited.  But both the military and the Middle East are quite irrelevant to this discussion.  As to immigration laws, it is not a matter of experience - it is a matter of law, which transcends experience.  You don't have to believe me, but contact your nearest immigration professional and ask how easy it is for some random guy to "become American".  As a factual/legal matter, it just is not easy, or even possible, for the vast majority of foreigners. 

I will venture that your experience with citizenship comes primarily from the military citizenship program - if you look closer at that program, you will find that there are some very specific requirements for eligibility, that most foreigners just cannot meet.  No opinion, simple fact:  Becoming American (or not) is not simply a matter of choice.

Zesty wrote: How do you guys reply to multiple quotes in one post?

Quote it, copy the code, past it in another quoted box....

Hades wrote: One more thing I forgot to mention to all those that complain and moan about all the jobs going to the immagrants, if your that dumb that a company will hire an immigrant that barely speaks English over you, it is your own fault that you didnt finish high school and get a better education. It doesnt take much to qualify for and keep a job. Hell, it must not be to difficult since the immagrants can manage to do it. Your still a kid, Dj. How did the "immigration problem" ever effect you?

It never affected me yet. I am not sure how it will affect my future though.

Sammy wrote: Do you honestly think the few extra millions from illegal immigrants is what is holding together social security?

That's BILLIONS with a "b".  But I do not think that those billions are "holding together" SS - only a few people make that claim.  It is quite clear that it is helping, however.  Did you check the links I posted?  The third one in particular...

Immigrants do not have to pay income taxes, (and a few others things) and can do the work way cheaper than my uncles can because of this.

And that is in fact a powerful argument for trying harder to stop illegal immigration.

I am for making legal immigration into the U.S. easier, but I don't believe coming into this country and taking jobs away from hard workers is right.

I think you mean "hard workers taking work away from other hard workers"...   Your average illegal sweatshop lady/migrant worker works a whole lot harder than most Americans...

To sum up what Sammy is saying...

White people deserve the jobs moreso than people with darker skin...

And my point, Sammy, was that many illegals do in fact pay taxes, just like citizens.

(And, of course, the real question - how do you know that your uncles lost the jobs to ILLEGAL immigrants?  Did you check the green cards?  People are very quick to assume that anybody with an accent is illegal, especially when they are taking your job.)

Clark is hitting on the main beef I have with what you are saying Sammy.

You see a person who has a spanish accent doing the painting jobs, and you ASSUME they are illegal. That reasoning flaws your entire argument....

Surely, you see the bootstrapping going on there, Sammy...

You just said that if the hispanics can do the job legally and cheaper they deserve the work.  Now you say because they can't possibly be doing it cheaper, they must be illegal...

You are like the kid on Counterstrike who yells "aimbot" every time he gets shot.

Sammy wrote: Clark Kent wrote: And my point, Sammy, was that many illegals do in fact pay taxes, just like citizens. (And, of course, the real question - how do you know that your uncles lost the jobs to ILLEGAL immigrants? Did you check the green cards? People are very quick to assume that anybody with an accent is illegal, especially when they are taking your job.) I don't live near them, but I am assuming that the job could not have been done cheaper than what my uncles could do. Also, they told me they saw around eight hispanics doing the job. If my uncles can't go cheaper without losing money, then how could eight hispanics possibly do it? I might check back on this. I am not in any way against anybody trying to make a good living. I am against people taking away others opportunities illegaly. I believe that citizenship should be made way easier to stop all of the illegals here in America.

Problems with what you just said;

• Bias. They are your uncles, of course you will believe them if they say that dirty illegals stole their painting jobs. What if they were charging too much? What if they did shoddy work?
• Hersay. "They told me"
• Needless Assumption. 'if hispanics can do it cheaper, they MUST be illegal."

Sure, Sammy, here are some ways to do it cheaper: lower overhead, lower profit expectations, cheaper equipment, fewer benefits...

Toyota makes cars for half the price of GM - right here in the US.  That doesn't mean they are cheating.

Liberal Crap Spewer?

Hahaha, What a copout.

Can't defend your racist remarks anymore? Why try, when you can just claim the other side is "Spewing Crap" and walk away.

Kinda like people who are losing business, can just say "Daggum illegal Mexicans are stealin' our jobs!", and not bother thinking that maybe they should do the work cheaper....

Sammy wrote: And I don't usually see six whites packed into the the back of a ten year old pickup truck.

Sammy wrote: I am in no way racist.

Oooh the Irony.

Homer J wrote: VTpaintballer wrote: i hate the french Wow, that's...profound...

have you ever considered that no one on this forum is "profound"