The same purpose as rifleing.....
Printed From: Tippmann Paintball
Category: Tippmann Paintball
Forum Name: Paintball Ideas / News From Tippmann
Forum Description: Got a new idea or a way to improve something?
URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=145838
Printed Date: 16 September 2024 at 8:19pm
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Topic: The same purpose as rifleing.....
Posted By: stealthy2
Subject: The same purpose as rifleing.....
Date Posted: 01 December 2005 at 1:17am
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... But using a different method. Rifling doesn't work because the rifling only spins the shell and not the liquid fill, right? Kindof like a glass of water. Spin the glass and the water doesn't move. You may also notice that it takes very, very little side to side or circular movement to get the water spinning very fast. My idea would be kindof like the Flatline only it would produce the spiraling type spin that rifling would attempt to get. Get it? The only problem would be keeping the paintball facing the same direction so that the spinning would be even, which is what I'm working on. Also, I mentioned the Flatline above. It wouldn't really be like the Flatline, it would just use the method of moving the whole paintball to produce spin, thats all. It would also, hopefully, be more accurate then the Flatline. Of course, improving accuracy is the whole point of rifling so I would hope so. The one and only idea that I have already thought of to keep the paintball facing the same direction would be to change the shape of it, but I have read here that bullet shaped paintballs is not something to mention, so I guess I wont. Although, a short explenation as to why it shouldn't be mentioned would be great. And feel free to critisize my idea if you see any flaws. I'm sure there are a couple there. |
Replies:
Posted By: Darur
Date Posted: 01 December 2005 at 1:49am
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. . . Wha . . .?
------------- Real Men play Tuba [IMG]http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1859/newsmall6xz.jpg"> PH33R TEH 1337 Dwarf! http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/log_off_user.asp" rel="nofollow - DONT CLICK ME!!1 |
Posted By: stealthy2
Date Posted: 01 December 2005 at 10:52am
| Ok, go get a cup of water. It may help to see if it has ice in it. Now, pretend that the bottom of the cup is the front of the paintball. I know that the "front" probably wouldn't stay the front the whole way down the barrel, just pretend it would. Ok, not spin the cup like the rifling on the barrel would spin it. Don't move the cup in any direction except for down because that would be the direction it would move if it was a paintball going down a rifled barrel. Now look at the ice water in the cup as its spinning. Isn't moving much is it? Thats why rifling doesn't work. Rifling only spins the shell, not the liquid fill, and the shell doesn't have enough mass for rifling to have much, if any, effect on it. Now, don't pour that glass of water out yet. Take the same glass of water. Now, start to move the glass in a circular motion, but not spinning it. Just by moving it slowly and for not very long you can get the ice water to spin very fast. The liquid core of a paintball is what would need to spin for the idea behind rifling to work. This would get the liquid core spinning. Of course paintball fill is thicker, so it might not spin as much. But as fast as you can get water spinning with as little of force as you can, I wouldn't doubt that you can get a paintball spinning fast enough to have possitive effects. |
Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 01 December 2005 at 4:35pm
| As if curves off in the direction of the spin. |
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 01 December 2005 at 7:10pm
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its not that the liquid paint isnt moving, though that is a problem. the thing is, even if you did get your barrel to work, would be the centrifugal forces. all paintballs vary in size, weight, and density. the smallest air bubble in a paintball would cause something spinning at those kinds of speeds to lose control. i guess the smartest thing to do to increase accuracy and range would be to angle your shots. its what i do. ------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell" 
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Posted By: _TT_
Date Posted: 01 December 2005 at 7:27pm
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It would hook so sharp to the side, what would be the point? ------------- |
Posted By: sneaky_sniper
Date Posted: 01 December 2005 at 7:49pm
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if you get it to go side to side around in the barrel, after it leaves the barrel, it will not continue to stay on that straight path, it will fly off in the direction it was going when it leaves the barrel ------------- [IMG]http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c128/sneaky_sniper/Invader_Zim.jpg"> |
Posted By: Enos Shenk
Date Posted: 02 December 2005 at 5:01pm
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Ive never understood why this myth of paintballs not spinning is so widely believed. Go get a paintball, spin it on your desk. It spins just fine. The flatline spins the paint, and obviously the flatline works doesnt it? Besides, your idea contradicts itself, if rifling cannot spin a paintball, how does your idea of spinning a paintball work? ------------- 
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Posted By: W-R-A-I-T-H
Date Posted: 02 December 2005 at 6:23pm
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Yeah, but paint inside of a paintball (especially higher grade paintballs) is thicker than water which would give it the tendency to cling to the spinning shell. |
stealthy2 wrote:Posted By: Doublecross
Date Posted: 02 December 2005 at 9:00pm
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the fact is, that theres noting you...or anyone can do to make a paintball more accurate. Its a ball, more then that, its a ball with little weight moving at great speeds. Because the paintball is well...a ball, it will never be accurate as say, a bullit, because the bullit is heavy and is areodynamic, as a paintball, is neather.
------------- 98 tippy ebolt j&j ceramic 68/46 crossfire revolution I reject your reality, and substitute my own. |
Posted By: stealthy2
Date Posted: 02 December 2005 at 10:15pm
| Although I have an arguement for practically every one of you besides DeTrevni, I do not wish to argue about it. I belive that DeTrevnis post pretty much sums it all up, and that is why there is no point in arguing about any of the other theories or arguments. Thank you for sharing your opinions. |
Posted By: sneaky_sniper
Date Posted: 02 December 2005 at 10:53pm
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well think about it, when ever it leaves the barrel, after it has been riding around in circles in the barrel, after it leaves the barrel, there is no barrier to keep it goin on that coarse, motion does not have memory, it goes where it is sent, it will not keep going in that spirall pattern, it will just fly off where it was headed when it left the barrel ------------- [IMG]http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c128/sneaky_sniper/Invader_Zim.jpg"> |
Posted By: UV Halo
Date Posted: 03 December 2005 at 11:33am
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I agree with Enos, a paintball spins perfectly fine (I spin mine on a glass desk even). DeTrevni, consider these points:
However, the problem with paintball is due to the fact that paintballs are not perfect spheres (at least 99% of the time), and they all have a seam (some considerably worse than others), that varies in position from shot to shot. What I'm trying to find out is how perfect do the balls need to be, to benefit from rifling. For example with well-matched, minimally seamed, very well rounded, paint, in a rifled barrel, what kind of improvement you could get. The problem I have is that the best rounded, and minimally seamed paint I've come across is Evil and it's consistantly too small for my armson. ------------- M98C- W/QwkStrpCut Comp Air & Palmer Fatty Stab Gas-Thru Stock Lapco Sight Rail W/ADCO 30MM EDOT Qloader W/ CMS Freak SS W/Stif-Tip * Flatline * Armson Stealth |
Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 03 December 2005 at 12:19pm
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Question; how hard would it be for a paint manufacturer to produce paint with thin bits of shell between the two halves, cutting the fill in half? This would forcethe fill to spin along with the paint, and could allow rifled barrels to work... UV Halo's absolutely correct- the British army in the early 1800s employed the first Rifle regiments; dedicated skirmisher sthat would advance ahead of the main body working in skirmish pairs and engage the enemy with long range shots. Their rifles were pretty accurate at over two hundred yards' disance, while a musket was a lucky shota t a quarter that- hence mass voley fire. There is a precedent for spherical ammunition being fired more accurately from a rifled barrel. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: stealthy2
Date Posted: 03 December 2005 at 1:56pm
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Spherical ammunition, yes, but not paintballs. They are not near as round as most mustket balls where. They are deffinatly not as size consistant as musket balls. They where not the same material, which, yes, does make a difference. Their weight was destributed A LOT more evenly. |
Posted By: Evanh
Date Posted: 03 December 2005 at 7:24pm
| If you really wanted to make the paintball spin more useful. To make the liquid inside spin up just as fast as the shell you would have to ad in a bafle of a sort. I.E make to halves with a wall in between so you have two half spheres then put them together and wa la. you would have a paintball that accelerates the paint inside at the same speed as the shell. And Im spent. And I think he is thinking of a cork screw spiral to spin the paint. like a spiral flatline???? |
Posted By: stealthy2
Date Posted: 03 December 2005 at 8:48pm
| Kindof. More of a corkscrew, but modified. It would have to be tuned just right so that it would spin and not slosh. The more thought I put into it the more I don't think it would work as I had hoped. It would corkscrew just enough to get it spinning then it would be streight for just a little bit so that it would leave the barrel spinning, but going streight. |
Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 03 December 2005 at 8:59pm
I suppose it escaped your notice, but that's exactly what I suggested several posts ago. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: stealthy2
Date Posted: 04 December 2005 at 12:32am
| I was thinking about that but I don't think it would work very well. First of all, it would probably be more expincive to make them that way. Secondly, it would just add more and more strength to the paintball and they would become hard to break. It might work toward a more accurate shot, but its worthless if it doesn't break. |
Posted By: UV Halo
Date Posted: 04 December 2005 at 1:31am
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You guys are forgetting something- a paintball spins perfectly
fine. The liquid is thick enough to spin with the shell. It
may take a fraction of a second to get up to speed but, then, you could
argue that as the shell slows down due to friction with the air, the
paint will take that same fraction of second longer to slow down.
In any case, a simple hand spin will last in excess of three
seconds on a glass table which has more friction than if the paintball
were spinning in air. How often does a paintball fly for three
seconds? Even a flatline doesn't have that much hang time when
fired level or with a slight inclination. I maintain that the main reason why it doesn't significantly improve things in paintball are because paintballs are not uniformally spherical enough, and they have seams. Stealthy2. Have you seen period musket balls? Umm, I'd say that your average name brand balls are about the same quality if not better than those old balls in terms of roundness. Remember, they were cast by hand, before there were machines. But, they had their weight going for them. ------------- M98C- W/QwkStrpCut Comp Air & Palmer Fatty Stab Gas-Thru Stock Lapco Sight Rail W/ADCO 30MM EDOT Qloader W/ CMS Freak SS W/Stif-Tip * Flatline * Armson Stealth |
Posted By: The Guy
Date Posted: 04 December 2005 at 2:04am
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i understand your idea. it is IMPOSSIBLE to machine ------------- http://www.anomationanodizing.com - My Site 
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Posted By: Destroy_Boy
Date Posted: 04 December 2005 at 7:57am
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Nothing is impossible to make. Never ever. The real question is this; what's something easier with the same desired effect? I would believe that it'd be easier to make a ball that can handle rifling. ------------- . |
Posted By: UV Halo
Date Posted: 04 December 2005 at 11:44am
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Destroy_Boy, It can be easy to make a paintball to handle rifling. It needs to have a well defined axis (an oblong shaped ball), and you want the seem in the same orientation from shot to shot (lengthwise). But, the same tech that makes it great for rifling makes it difficult for the rest of the gun. You would have to move to a stacked clip-feed system- which would seriously limit your number of shots. In any case, the idea has already been patented http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,936,190.WKU.&OS=PN/5,936,190&RS=PN/5,936,190 - here . I don't know for certain why it isn't going anywhere. Maybe the owner can't secure an arrangement with a ball manufucturer or, maybe no manufacturer can understand that there is a market segment that would want the benefit and would be willing to pay more per shot than the rest of the community. ------------- M98C- W/QwkStrpCut Comp Air & Palmer Fatty Stab Gas-Thru Stock Lapco Sight Rail W/ADCO 30MM EDOT Qloader W/ CMS Freak SS W/Stif-Tip * Flatline * Armson Stealth |
Posted By: sneaky_sniper
Date Posted: 04 December 2005 at 3:02pm
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Rifling cuts into the bullet, you ever seen a bullet after its been fired? It has cuts on its side, the rifling cuts into the bullet so it can "grip it" better, so it will spin when the rifling spirals, it cuts into metal! a paintball isn’t nearly as strong as metal, if you tried to give it the same kind of rifling that is in a rifle, it would shred it and you would break about 95% of your shots, if you don’t believe me cuz u have seen or own a barrel with rifling, look at it, then look at the rifling in an actual rifle, see the difference? the pb barrel's rifling, is a lot finer, and isn’t really big enough to do any good, it hardly has any effect on the paintball, and it doesn’t make the paintball spin, its too small to have that capability, but, if you where to do UV Halo's idea, of making it kind of bullet shaped, along with making the side shell thicker so it could handle the rifling, it might work, problem is, that would kill being able to use a hopper, you’d have to go full out milslim, it would need to use a working clip, so you get less shots, and no more pods, just extra clips, so people like me who don’t shoot much unless they know they can get the shot, would love it, cuz it would raise they're accuracy and range. But for you speedball types or people who shoot a lot wouldn’t really be able to use this unless, they made a drum system. But first you then run the risk of somehow the "bullet paintball" started spinning end over end, and it hit the person with the side of the shell, which is, as I said earlier, much stronger and thicker, it would hurt like hell! And you can’t really put a point on the shell, it might cut into someone, although if you where to section off the tip so it where just filled with air, it could be done. ------------- [IMG]http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c128/sneaky_sniper/Invader_Zim.jpg"> |
Posted By: UV Halo
Date Posted: 04 December 2005 at 5:00pm
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Sneaky_Sniper, There is at least one definite reason why a rifled bullet has the rifling cut into it. First and foremost, this innovation was pioneered with the Miniet Bullet which, better sealed the breech than a standard ball. This allowed for an even greater consistancy between shots. Another probable reason is that lead has more inertia (resistance to change) than a paintball, therefore it requires more force to get it to effectively spin. Another possible reason is that bullets spin at a much higher RPM (because they're also moving forward that much faster), so you even need to make the barrel grip and twist with even more force. Unfortunately, this was never my idea. I seriously wish for a product like the one I described in my last comment but, I think there are simpler, more mundane forces behind why it isn't on the market. When this idea was originally proposed, the word of why it failed as reported by Action Pursuit Games was that it was a competing standard too late in the game. Since you'd have to buy a new gun, and new paintballs... This day and age, I don't think it could replace the existing paintball but, it could work alongside it. Just like the sharpshooter compliments the regular infantry. ------------- M98C- W/QwkStrpCut Comp Air & Palmer Fatty Stab Gas-Thru Stock Lapco Sight Rail W/ADCO 30MM EDOT Qloader W/ CMS Freak SS W/Stif-Tip * Flatline * Armson Stealth |
Posted By: sneaky_sniper
Date Posted: 04 December 2005 at 5:14pm
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thats kinda what i was goin for, it will in no way replace the paintball, but for people like me who dont shoot as much and pick our shots, who want range and accuracy, it would be great, we would use it, but others would keep the original ------------- [IMG]http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c128/sneaky_sniper/Invader_Zim.jpg"> |
Posted By: Destroy_Boy
Date Posted: 04 December 2005 at 5:34pm
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A paintball should bend to form slightly and shouldn't be cut to shreds by rifling... If not, then I'm sure making tapered edges to the rifling would help that.
Yeah, I would love bullet-shaped paintballs of about .30 cal, but they're not standard. Now, if you got a painball that wasn't completely hollow, that had a bunch of little chambers in it, that would help the problem. ------------- . |
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 04 December 2005 at 7:26pm
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this all brings into account the hammerhead barrel system. any one heard of them? they are said (by the people selling them and random people on the field) to be more accurate than regular barrels. theyre rifled. can anyone here give me kind of a review of a hammerhead? from personal experience, not just critiques? i think this subject will help along the rifling debate. ------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
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Posted By: sneaky_sniper
Date Posted: 04 December 2005 at 7:29pm
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im going to cut apart some paintballs and try to work with the shells to give it a longer body then refill it. and my barrel has some rifling in it, not much, but some, and compare it to a normal paintball, ------------- [IMG]http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c128/sneaky_sniper/Invader_Zim.jpg"> |
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 04 December 2005 at 8:53pm
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good luck with that! it aint gonna be easy. ------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
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Posted By: sneaky_sniper
Date Posted: 05 December 2005 at 12:02am
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ya i know, its taken me a while, ill try to finish it tomoro ------------- [IMG]http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c128/sneaky_sniper/Invader_Zim.jpg"> |
Posted By: DEVILDOG
Date Posted: 09 July 2006 at 7:15pm
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http://www.hammerheadpaintball.com/barrels.html - http://www.hammerheadpaintball.com/barrels.html my lil brother has one. hes got the BattleStikxx. he loves it. |
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 09 July 2006 at 8:17pm
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well, because you are new here, ill give you a heads up. check the dates on the posts. the members here get agitated when an old thread is bumped. i would like to thank you for answering my question, but try to avoid bumping an old thread unless you think it is vital. not trying to be rude, just given you a heads up. oh, welcome to the forums. ------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
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Posted By: *Stealth*
Date Posted: 10 July 2006 at 12:04pm
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Stealthy2, Fill a cup with Ketchup and spin it. Paint is no where near the consistency of water. The paint spins fine with the paintball. |
Posted By: the_blade
Date Posted: 12 July 2006 at 6:55pm
a simple 22 i believe has a rpm of 30,000 ------------- 95 base neon 3.0 cai, knifedged crankshaft 60 mill throttle body,14 crane cam crane springs/retainers eagle rods port matched/ polished intake p&p head shaved .015 phantom grip diff dohc exuast |
Posted By: yoinks
Date Posted: 14 July 2006 at 9:05pm
Alright, You know how some shotgun shells have grooving in the round? Why not make an oblong paintball like that? like this Sorry it looks big. Anyway the round would rifle itself. of corse, you would have to have a marker that could feed that kind of round. |
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 18 July 2006 at 12:06pm
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Setting aside all the other reasons we've already explained why this wouldn't work...The shells would have to be hella thick. ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: yoinks
Date Posted: 18 July 2006 at 4:23pm
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If you are referring to my post, no they wouldn't. that kind of shape could be stamped into the shell when it is still pliable |
Posted By: Lt.Smash
Date Posted: 18 July 2006 at 4:44pm
| I agree with Yoinks, they wouldnt even have to change the barrel and the would be able to be shot from any old paintball gun. |
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 18 July 2006 at 5:52pm
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You have any idea how innefficient that would be? You would need a crazy amount of gas to drive the thing becaue it would leak around the grooves. Shotguns work because of wadding. Even from a marketing stand point it would be retarded. A whole new gun would have to be manufactured to meet the specifications of a new round, and there would be next to no profit. It won't work.
------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
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Posted By: yoinks
Date Posted: 18 July 2006 at 6:23pm
Ok so What if you attached a collar around the seam? You would still need a Marker that could handel the round but I dont think that would be hard to make. |
Posted By: Frobs
Date Posted: 23 July 2006 at 5:29pm
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Vertical feed. Change the feedneck to an oblong shape, Use ten round tubes, similar to ones used for stock class play, only oval... Anyone realise how much more expensive it will be? Hello 300 a case. |