Killing Christmas
Printed From: Tippmann Paintball
Category: News And Views
Forum Name: Thoughts and Opinions
Forum Description: Got something you need to say?
URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=146118
Printed Date: 05 March 2026 at 11:02pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Killing Christmas
Posted By: Scotchbroth
Subject: Killing Christmas
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 3:56pm
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Recently it seems that political correctness has targeted christmas. Apparently christmas is offensive the religions that do not celebrate it. As a result many local authorities will not put up the traditional decorations. I am offended by this and shocked that has been allowed to happen in a christian country (UK) ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: PlentifulBalls
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:00pm
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People are idiots. Fight the power, decorate, celebrate your holiday. how is it offensive, it doesnt effect them at all. OMG TEH SANTA OMG TEH IM O-FEENDED! ------------- 
sporx wrote: well...ya i prolly will be a virgin till i'm at least 30. |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:01pm
| That is a bit surprising. TMK, most European countries with state churches are visibly christmasy this time of year. Strange. |
Posted By: hoginds24
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:01pm
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Don't let jewish people light their candles... ------------- [IMG]http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/6924/willproducsv6.jpg"> |
Posted By: procarbinefreak
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:02pm
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put up your own decorations and celebrate your holiday and get over it |
Posted By: Snipa69
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:06pm
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Meh, I just let peopel think what they want to think and do my own thing. Some people at my old job either tried to be funny or were actually angered that we didn't have anything like a menora to put up, so they made the star of david out of a piece of paper and hung it on the xmas tree. I personally didn't care, but thinking back on it I guess they were taking things a little bit to the extreme side of it. Who really cares? ------------- http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/857/sig9ac6cs1mj.jpg - |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:07pm
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procarbinefreak wrote:Posted By: Scotchbroth
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:12pm
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It's political correctness that annoys me the most. In my area there is a roundabout that always has a tree in the middle of it all lit up. The council have refused to do that this year but all the way down the same street there are "happy Chanukah" posters every 20 feet. That isn't promoting equality -------------
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Posted By: Whazuuup!
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:15pm
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Yeah here in the US politicians and the country in general are definatley trying to push anything God-related out of our society. I have noticed the same thing about Christmas. And then people turn around and blame God for natural disasters like Hurricane Katrina etc.... Pretty sad ------------- 
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Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:15pm
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Was the tree on pubic property, as opposed to the posters being on private? I dont know how the UK works really... -------------
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Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:17pm
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So by your theory, if we allowed nativity scenes on public property, bad things would not happen to us? -------------
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Posted By: Scotchbroth
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:18pm
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no the posters are on lamposts and wall of the park and the tree is public.
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Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:22pm
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Posted By: Whazuuup!
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:25pm
^^^^ I really couldn't have put it better myself 
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Posted By: Badsmitty
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:25pm
| If we don't stop this, God will wink out of existence! |
Posted By: Sammy
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:25pm
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What really made me laugh was.. "Happy Holiday" Trees. Saw a sign when I was driving down the street the other day. ------------- 
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Posted By: Scotchbroth
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:31pm
Posted By: Whazuuup!
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:32pm
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Holiday Trees... that is pretty funny. I guess we can no longer say "Manora" either. We have to call it a Seasonal Seven-Candle Holder. -------------
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Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:36pm
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Aren't they calling NYC's Christmas tree the "Holiday Tree" now or something? People need to get a life if they find this stuff offensive. Ok, I understand it if, for example, someone is not excused from school work for a religious reason that is not Christian or Jewish; but if people are complaining about other religions displaying symbols of their joy and beliefs, they need to open their eyes. If someone puts a tree up somewhere, instead of complaining (if you don't celebrate Christmas) about the tree and why it shouldn't be called an Xmas tree (even though that's the only thing it represents), put up your own thing and deal with it. The only thing you should object to is a limit on your own beliefs. Right now, the Christians are getting the unfair end of the deal. The tree in NYC should be called the Christmas tree and nothing else. If the Jews want a Menorah, have a petition and send it to the governor, and find a place for it. And if the government is just trying to remove God from society, why don't they just alter the pledge of allegiance and take "In God We Trust" off of the currency. Some things have to be taken care of with an iron fist. Either way, someone stupid is going to be offended. ------------- 
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Posted By: Sammy
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:36pm
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Hahaha that article made me laugh. And I like the candle idea.. -------------
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Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:51pm
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You poor, poor neglected 80% majority.... -------------
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Posted By: Scotchbroth
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 4:52pm
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What does being the majority have to do with anything? -------------
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Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 5:02pm
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Christianity is being demonized right now. Its ok, this too shall pass. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors"> 
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Posted By: Cedric
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 5:50pm
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As long as I get presents, I don't care. ------------- 
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Posted By: Boss_DJ
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 6:11pm
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Posted By: Da Hui
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 6:58pm
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This is stupid, I swear people nowadays will do **edited** about anything just for some attention. ------------- 
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Posted By: Dye Playa
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 7:36pm
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yea i saw on the news they changed the words in the song "We wish you a merry christmas" when the 1st graders sing it in calss to "We wish you a splendid holiday" (sung to the same tune) and yea, the xmas trees being called holiday trees, and christmas break now called holiday vacation(i can kinda understand that). i think its a little outta control. jews dont have honukah songs, either, so its not really like kids could sing them, unless they sing the adam sandler songs. and i lol'ed about the candle too. ------------- 
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Posted By: Boss_DJ
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 7:38pm
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Posted By: WGP guy2
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 8:07pm
It has to do with EVERYTHING. Thats the basis of democracy! Majority rules. So, since the majority supports Christmas, why take it away? |
Posted By: Whazuuup!
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 8:10pm
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Well, our democracy says the majority rules without suppressing the minority while doing it. So I guess it comes down to whether displaying "Christmas" in public is supressing non-christians. -------------
http://ipods.freepay.com/?r=20098193 - Free ipod! Yay! |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 8:13pm
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Well, here in the US we have this whole thing about separation of church and state, which makes majority/minority issues irrelevant. But the UK has a state church (pretty much the opposite situation) - and while I am sure they have religious freedom laws, one would think that the government would be allowed to express the state religion. Seems a bit odd, but then what do I know. |
Posted By: holysmartone
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 8:17pm
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Honestly, why do people care so much. Im not forcing you to believe in
god just because I have a damn christmas tree. Im not forcing you to
believe in anything. If anything should be changed, it should be people
like Jehovas whitnesses that come to my house once a month handing me
papers trying to convert me to their religion. Hate to say it, but this
country is going to hell with everyone bieng sue happy. Too bad the
"Lets change everything so that noone is offended" idea doesnt work
out, someone is always left out. Thats how life is. People really need
to get over themselves and see that this is all pointless. Im not
jewish, but I dont care if a conpany puts a menorah in the window of
their shop. How does that effect me? People really need to wake up and
realize this is just a waste of their time on earth. |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 9:17pm
| What does this have to do with your christmas tree? The issue is government displays, not private displays. |
Posted By: Hairball!!!
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 9:30pm
| Of the whatever, 20%, of religious minority, how many do you think are offended by Christian symbols? Do you think more than about a hundred of them are angered when they see a Jesus fish on someone's car? What about when they drive by a church? |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 9:49pm
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Why the focus on the religious minority? Lots of Christian folk are offended by the conflaguration of church and state. Again - the issue is NOT about private displays. It's about government displays. Nobody is saying they - or anybody - is offended by a christmas tree. |
Posted By: vonfeldt7
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 10:16pm
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its people liek the 1 dude that tried to take in God we trust out of the pledge of allegience(<most likely spelled wrong) that piss me off...that jackass was just trying to get attention...those words weren't hurting him any...but he decided "hey, i think today, im going to make a complete ***hole of myself on national news... america is WAY to free if you ask me......like..this should be a "Christian"(like not just one part of Christianity though....like...all of them.....ex.Babtists, Lutherens(spelled wrong),ect.) nation or something....every1 else...go away but w/e....also that might be a tad bit too cruel.......idk P.S. i bet i made sum1 mad in what i said above...if i did....well thats just too bad isnt it, flame away. ------------- http://www.freewebs.com/paintball_things - novice paintball help (If you own a tippy and your new to paintball, this site may help) Jesus is my friend DO NOT say"sniper"here! |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 10:18pm
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You want a christian state? Wich version of christianity. I asure you, my version of christianity is not the same as yours. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: Whazuuup!
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 10:23pm
Uhh, it was "one nation, under God", but we know what you meant  .About your other comment, we can't kick all of them out or anything that extreme, but I wouldn't mind makeing people a little more tolerant. Christianity is deep in the roots of this country, and if you don't like it, too bad, it's a fact. It only becomes wrong if our Christian-based government starts taking away rights from non-Christians. I don't see that happening. -------------
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Posted By: Ejp414
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 10:25pm
Actually, I don't think non-Christians blame the Christian God for Hurricane Katrina. ------------- __________________ __________________ |
Posted By: Ejp414
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 10:26pm
The gov't is Christian-based? ------------- __________________ __________________ |
Posted By: Whazuuup!
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 10:31pm
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Last I checked it is. Our President, for example. The 10 commandments in a bunch of government buildings. Swearing into the presidency on the Bible... I mean "based" in a sense that they are connected. Not that everything the Bible says you can't to is illegal and that sort of thing. -------------
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Posted By: Ejp414
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 10:41pm
So is our Christian government Catholic or Protestant? There has been at least one president of each sect, not to mention the varying denominations of the presidents from the latter. I won't even bother pointing out that religion has no bearing on who is eligible for the POTUS office. Tile floors are in many of the government buildings, yet the government is not based on tile floors. The presentation of the Ten Commandments has no bearing on how the government actually works. Finally, the swearing into the presidency on a Bible is optional; as a matter of fact, one president has declined. I'm still not understanding what you're trying to say. What in God's name do you mean by "connected"? Not trying to quibble over semantics here, but I really don't get your position. ------------- __________________ __________________ |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 11:10pm
| Apparently constitution basics are not part of the home school curriculum... |
Posted By: Enos Shenk
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 11:16pm
Wheres the problem? We dont need a theocracy. ------------- 
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Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 11:19pm
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Religion in society should not be outlawed, it religion funded and supported by the state thats the problem. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: Hades
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 1:16am
| WAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Posted By: Whazuuup!
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 9:33am
Does that clear things up a little maybe? -------------
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Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 9:42am
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I would agree that there isnt a clear seperation of church and state in this country. Not yet anyway.
But people are confusing seperation of church and state, with religion in public, these are two different things. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 10:42am
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Are you saying that, as a practical matter, there is no separation? Or are you saying that, legally speaking, there is no separation? Or are you saying that there should be no separation? I disagree with you either way - I just want to know which position(s) to refute. Thanks. |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 10:43am
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Not sure exactly where you are going with that, but I think I agree with all possible interpretations. |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 10:48am
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Basicaly, while i will agree that the ten comandments do not belong in the courts.
I am against banning public displays of religious icons during the holidays. That isnt a church and state issue. I dont think. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 10:58am
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Yeah, I think that one is pretty obvious most of the time.
This one is trickier, IMO. I agree that it would be nice to have your town be able to throw up some nativity scenes. There are two reasons why/when this could be a problem, though. First, you are dealing with tax dollars. If it was a church putting up a display in the public park it would be one thing, but we are talking about spending tax dollars. In one sense, that would be like spending government money to support the Democratic/Republican party. It's not that there is anything wrong with either party (and presumably the government was elected by a majority, so the gov'mt is just sending the money where the majority likes it), it's just that those are things that the government can't spend money on. Second, there is the old preference matter. As you point out, it could be something as simple as a denominational issue - say the nativity scene comes with a tape playing hymns, and some of those hymns are decidedly Catholic in their lyrics? Is the state espousing the RC church over protestant groups? It's just impossible NOT to at least appear to be expressing a preference for somebody. So - I don't necessarily disagree, but I think it can get a little messy. |
Posted By: Whazuuup!
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 10:58am
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Well, public display is too general. You can put stuff in your front yard and it's public, right? It's not public property, but everyone can see it. I think we're talking about schools and government buildings and such. And Mr. Kent, I meant that complete separation doesn't exist. It's not like church and state are integrated, but they are not totally separate either. It's somewhere in between, closer to separation than to integration. Do your worst  .-------------
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Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 11:03am
Exactly, i think that if a comunity wants to have a nativity scene in the park, that should be allowed. But once its funded by public money, well thats the same issue over busing for non secular schools provided by the state. That IS a church and state issue. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: Boss_DJ
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 11:05am
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 11:08am
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EDIT - to Whazzuup We are definitely talking about "public" as in "state-sponsored", not as in "publicly visible on private property". Nobody is saying you can't put up a nativity in your yard. As to separation - I am still a little confused. If you are saying that, as a practical matter, church and state are not completely separated, then I have to agree. There is some intermingling, and it has been increasing recently, IMO, which is a very unfortunate thing. If you are saying that LEGALLY speaking there is not a complete separation, then that depends on what we mean by "complete". The law is pretty clear about the wall of separation between church and state - but some crossover has always been allowed. Some displays of the Ten Commandments in courthouses are legally ok, for instance, if they are part of a larger historical display. So the lines can get fuzzy at times. If you are saying that Christianity has a special place in the history of this country, then you are certainly correct - but that place may not be as special as you think. Hard to discuss vague statements... :) |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 11:11am
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My religion says church and state should be seperate, and i like it that way. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 11:11am
I don't know what the law is, but I think that puts us deep into that fuzzy area, and it will all depend on the specifics. Specifically as to Christmas trees, though, I think they, like Santa, are mostly viewed as non-religious cultural items. I know plenty of Buddhists that put of Christmas trees.
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Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 11:13am
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My neighbors are Hindi and they put up a christmas tree. But that religion is very very flexible and has consumed bits and peices of religions in the past. So, oh well. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: cadet_sergeant
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 12:00pm
| actually the supreme court has ruled that nativity seens can be in public, along with menoras, and all other forums if religion, the stipulation... they have to be together. the government just wants everyone to be represented. this year a public library asked a church if they wanted to make a desplay, for the front of the library. now this church being a baptist church 95% of the time they'll use a nativity seen. after the seen has been up for a number of days, the library manager returns and wants the seen gone, is that right? no, they asked them, they accepted, and then they get mad about it. |
Posted By: HOInfantry
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 12:12pm
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Hey! My opinion is that...well, part of the tradition of America is rooted in Christianity and Catholocism. We cannot stamp out those roots. By having Christmas Trees we honor our past. It does not have to be an endorsment of a current religion, rather, paying tribute to our roots as a nation who's laws were forged on Christian values (note the differences between our laws and thoser in Muslim nations...most signitores of the Declaration of Independance were Christian as well...I believe we are a nation based on Christianity). Good luck! Hell's Oracle, Semper Fi ------------- "HO is right..." - Procarbinefreak |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 12:13pm
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We arent rooted in catholicism, Christianity yes, catholic, not so much. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: HOInfantry
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 12:17pm
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Hey, The Irish played a fairly large role in the Civil War, well, a few key roles so I would consider them as part of the heritage. Also played a large part in the shaping of the economics and prejuidices. But you are right, they weren't a large part in the founding of the US. Good luck! Hell's Oracle, Semper Fi ------------- "HO is right..." - Procarbinefreak |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 12:18pm
| "Having Christian roots" and "founded mostly by Christians" is vastly different from being "a nation based on Christianity"... |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 12:19pm
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Then you could say the Irish played a large part in US history and culture. But you cant generalize and say catholic, catholocism has played a relatively small miniscule part in our history. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: HOInfantry
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 12:21pm
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Hey! Explain yourself...you have to understand, I'm pretty stupid. I don't see black and white, I see green...and green. Good luck! Hell's Oracle, Semper Fi Edit- I'll agree with that, so, I correct myself and say Christianity and the Irish. But the two religions aren't vastly different. Actually, I find that, from Lutheranism, Catholocism is closer than Baptists are. ------------- "HO is right..." - Procarbinefreak |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 12:22pm
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Yaaay colorblind soldiers just what we need!!! wooo hoo
Lol.  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: HOInfantry
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 12:24pm
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Sometimes, with some of the girls on Parris Island, I wish I were just straight blind... ------------- "HO is right..." - Procarbinefreak |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 12:30pm
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How about those female drill instructors?
*shudders* ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors">
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Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 12:31pm
Hope you didn't have to go to 4th Bn. for team week. I worked in S4 for a day and ate at their chow hall, I was lucky I didn't lose a few fingers and/or other appendages. Actually, be glad if you didn't do laundry when 4thBn's linens were going through. 
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Posted By: Liquid3
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 1:48pm
| We won't do anything but put a temporary bandaid on the major problems, but we're willing to go 60 rounds over what a tree is called. If anybody is still wondering what is wrong with modern society.... Amazing....... |
Posted By: oreomann33
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 3:36pm
Saw that coming... ------------- 
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 3:52pm
Clarification - my terminology: "Having Christian roots" = founded in a generally Christian society. "Founded mostly by Christians" = er, founded mostly by Christians. "Nation based on Christianity" = a nation that incorporates Christian concepts into its rules and laws specifically as Christian rules and laws. Murder is prohibited in this country. Murder is prohibited by Christianity. That doesn't make it a Christian law - there just happened to be overlap. Witness countless non-Christian nations that have the same law. The other extreme would a law requiring women to cover their faces, because god says so. That would be a truly religious law. The Taliban regime was a nation based on Islam. The US is a nation that has Christian roots. There are of course many points in between, but I note that most of the 10 Commandments are not law, and many are directly unconstitutional. That would not be the case if we were a nation based on Christianity (as I use that term). |