Idea for pneumatic full auto.
Printed From: Tippmann Paintball
Category: Tippmann Paintball
Forum Name: Paintball Ideas / News From Tippmann
Forum Description: Got a new idea or a way to improve something?
URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=150250
Printed Date: 21 July 2025 at 8:05am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Idea for pneumatic full auto.
Posted By: Ilford Rule
Subject: Idea for pneumatic full auto.
Date Posted: 14 February 2006 at 6:33pm
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I was thinking today, and came up with an idea that I think is pretty
good. Its a way to have adjustable firing rates on a full auto marker,
without electronics. its a system i have dubbed P.A.F.A. (pneumatically
actuated full automatic) firing system. please see the following diagram, as it will be referred to for the rest of the explanation. http://img415.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pafafiringsystemdiagram4cf.png">  click to enlarge Ok, so heres how it works. as air leaves the valve (im using a CVX valve for the diagram because thats what tippmanns use, but it could work for anything) into the powertube (again, only due to tippmann use. could use any method of controlling blowback gas). it leaves the power tube the same way it leaves when it is being used for a cyclone or RT, only now it connects to a flow control valve. more on that later. after the flow control valve, it connects to an on/off valve. that on/off is controlled by the trigger. after the trigger is depressed, air is allowed through the valve. the air then goes into a piston in the gripframe. that piston trips the sear. once the piston has opened to the length necessary to trip the sear, it will vent the gas inside through a hole drilled at the appropriate height. now for the real beauty of the system: full auto ROF control. you will be able to adjust the volume of air allowed into the system due to a calibrated flow control valve set to intervals of say, 10, 15, 20, and potentially 25 bps. this will slow down the rate at which air cycles through the system, increasing the time between when the piston trips the sear and when the piston returns. due to the constant supply of air, the gas in the piston will extend it and then vent out through the hole, only to be replaced by more gas, repeating the process. the manual system primer pushbutton is required in order to set the system up for the first shot. it would release air into the gas line until the trigger was pulled, so that the trigger would have some gas to release and begin the process. the buttons function could be easily connected to the cocking lever, so that only one action would be required to ready the marker for firing. i came up with this idea by thinking about how the e-grip trips the sear. i then thought, "hey, wouldnt it be great if we could have full auto that didnt require substantial timing or batteries?". this could fire faster then the RT. I know its not necessary, but remember the factory F/A? same purpose, only basically no timing involved. its like the RT, only its ACTUALLY full auto. any thoughts? ------------- CPro (w/ polished internals) 14" Bigshot BT SBS Various Rails NcSTAR D4B Macro AA 68/45 
CCI Phantom 45 Grips |
Replies:
Posted By: Monkey Dust
Date Posted: 14 February 2006 at 6:36pm
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It is illegal in my country so i don't care. But it looks like you know what you are talking about... I think?
------------- a new breed of dracula!!!!!! |
Posted By: Ilford Rule
Date Posted: 14 February 2006 at 6:37pm
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Thanks, i like to think i have screwed up and then fixed my marker so many times that i know the ins and outs of how it works. i really think this could work. ------------- CPro (w/ polished internals) 14" Bigshot BT SBS Various Rails NcSTAR D4B Macro AA 68/45
CCI Phantom 45 Grips |
Posted By: p8ntballerAK
Date Posted: 14 February 2006 at 8:06pm
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paintball illegal? whats the world coming too? ------------- 
I may be losing , but I am not lost!! |
Posted By: hybrid-sniper
Date Posted: 14 February 2006 at 8:27pm
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Fully automatic is illegal in certain countries. |
p8ntballerAK wrote:Posted By: Wildgoat
Date Posted: 14 February 2006 at 9:46pm
It seems as though it would work. I like it. ------------- 
Hitler of the 21st century!!! |
Posted By: mjicmike
Date Posted: 15 February 2006 at 12:19am
let me go ahead, make a blueprint of your idea with my name and get a patent on it and if it works I'll give you 5% of my profits ?  ------------- A5 Rfs Dwg triggr Ricochet R5 8"Lapco Bigsht/14"CP Classic Palmers Stab. Lapco uni-mount DOP bullet drop fwd PMI 88/4500 Woods Flatline/14"Lapco Bigsht CMI Thunder pig reg. Remote adj. stk |
Posted By: Ilford Rule
Date Posted: 15 February 2006 at 7:00pm
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I. Will. Kill you. Should i patent it? ------------- CPro (w/ polished internals) 14" Bigshot BT SBS Various Rails NcSTAR D4B Macro AA 68/45
CCI Phantom 45 Grips |
Posted By: Ashdawg
Date Posted: 15 February 2006 at 7:47pm
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why not, if you have the time and a little green, patent that thinga-ma-jiggy Its the worst feeling in the world for someone to be making money off your idea.
------------- "Too close for missles, switching to guns..." |
Posted By: Ilford Rule
Date Posted: 15 February 2006 at 8:38pm
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how much money does it take to patent? im only 15...
------------- CPro (w/ polished internals) 14" Bigshot BT SBS Various Rails NcSTAR D4B Macro AA 68/45
CCI Phantom 45 Grips |
Posted By: You Wont See Me
Date Posted: 15 February 2006 at 9:41pm
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It costs quite a lot. I remember doing a little research into patenting
something ahwile ago that I came up with while lying in bed. Then I saw
the price and forgot whatever genious idea that was. You could always try a poor mans patent. ------------- A-5 E-Grip JCS Dual Trigger DOP X-CORE 8 stage x-chamber Lapco Bigshot 14" Beadblasted Optional setup: R/T Dead on Blade trigger |
Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 16 February 2006 at 12:19am
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How does the Flow Control Valve work? If it works like a Reg, then it will only work well at a certain psi and rof. At lower psi the ram wont engage the sear. It may work, but it would take some serious experimentation. |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 16 February 2006 at 2:38pm
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It wont work. ------------- 
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Posted By: Ilford Rule
Date Posted: 16 February 2006 at 5:34pm
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Monk: I have experience working with flow control valves. They limit
the flow of air, slowing down (in this case) the piston. Sorta like a
reg, but instead of holding back excess it vents it off to the side. so
if i slow down the airflow it will take longer to reset the piston, and
ready the system for the next shot. Tae Kwon Do: Please dont just say "it wont work". If your going to say that give me a REASON why it wont work. If you dont know, then you have no reason to SAY it wont work. Think next time. ------------- CPro (w/ polished internals) 14" Bigshot BT SBS Various Rails NcSTAR D4B Macro AA 68/45
CCI Phantom 45 Grips |
Posted By: Gulfster
Date Posted: 17 February 2006 at 8:09pm
| do a poor man's patent. Make blueprints and mail them to yourself. When you get the mail back it will have the official post-marked date on it. If anyone else patents you just show you had the idea before them. I know it works something like that, might be a little more involved, but it's cheap. |
Posted By: Ilford Rule
Date Posted: 17 February 2006 at 11:24pm
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wait: what? if i mail it to myself, why does that matter. so what if i had the idea first? will they actually care?
------------- CPro (w/ polished internals) 14" Bigshot BT SBS Various Rails NcSTAR D4B Macro AA 68/45
CCI Phantom 45 Grips |
Posted By: sniper6
Date Posted: 18 February 2006 at 1:05am
| I love this idea. It seems as though it would work. A for the patent, it's $500 to file it, and if it gets approved, it's $700 extra to get it issued, but when you could sell the patent for thousands or make lots of money by being a partner with Tippmann, I think it's worth it. |
Posted By: sniper6
Date Posted: 18 February 2006 at 1:07am
| Oh yeah, and once it gets issued, you have to have an attorney draw up legal papers. |
Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 18 February 2006 at 3:08am
That only works for copyrights. |
Posted By: sniper6
Date Posted: 18 February 2006 at 4:59pm
| I was thinking, maybe Tippmann would partner with you if they thought this was a great idea, patent it, and give you a percentage of the profits. |
Posted By: Ilford Rule
Date Posted: 19 February 2006 at 10:15pm
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Ill do that. Would an email be sufficient? Also, Im 15. Do you think
theyd actually take it. I wouldnt really care about money that much,
just so long as they acknowledged me and gave me small royalties.
------------- CPro (w/ polished internals) 14" Bigshot BT SBS Various Rails NcSTAR D4B Macro AA 68/45
CCI Phantom 45 Grips |
Posted By: dodan44
Date Posted: 19 February 2006 at 10:43pm
------------- i pawn noobs |
Posted By: sniper6
Date Posted: 19 February 2006 at 11:27pm
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an e-mail might work, or you could send an actual letter to the company could work too why dont you guys think it will work?(dodan and tkd) |
Posted By: Ilford Rule
Date Posted: 20 February 2006 at 5:23pm
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dont listen to TKD. i havent seen him make one intelligent post thus far. also, i havent seen dodan say anything smart. nothing dumb either, just nothing smart. ------------- CPro (w/ polished internals) 14" Bigshot BT SBS Various Rails NcSTAR D4B Macro AA 68/45
CCI Phantom 45 Grips |
Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 21 February 2006 at 5:09pm
| You can try it, but I have a feeling that there wouldn't be enough of a delay. The sear would be tripped almost exactly when the marker fired the first shot. It would have major timing issues. Also, in the off chance you did get it to work, it wouldn't be very practical anyways. Being true full auto, many fields wouldn't allow it. It would also be difficult to shut off. |
Posted By: sniper6
Date Posted: 21 February 2006 at 10:33pm
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I just thought of something. How does a sprinkler(one of the the ones that goes cha-cha-cha-cha-cha-shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh)work? When there's pressure the sprinkler lets out quick bursts of water, but when the water(CO2) isn't on, the valve stays closed(or on a paintbll gun when the trigger isnt pulled no C02 comes out). If you made a system like this and timed it, it would be a full auto paintball gun. Think about it. |
Posted By: sniper6
Date Posted: 22 February 2006 at 11:11pm
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I was thinking some more (imagine that). The valve on the sprinkler like system could have a tripping mechanism to time it, or you could have a catch that catches every 3 shots, 1 shot (semi-auto), or only when you let go of the trigger(full auto). This would get rid of the issue of it being illegal, because, correct me if im wrong, 3 shot burst and semi-auto aren't illegal. I notice that if been using parentheses a lot. |
Posted By: Zebulon
Date Posted: 23 February 2006 at 10:09am
you would need to make a working prototype first then get a lawyer and negotiate some financial backing to get the patent, but you would have to make one work first ------------- ? |
Posted By: RED5MOKE
Date Posted: 23 February 2006 at 11:09am
| U got to make a prototype and see if it works before you do anything. Then get some one to do your drawings of the system. Need a draftsman or something but I wouldnt even worry about that untill you see if it works. You might think it does but there are a lot of other factors that will affect how it performs. |
Posted By: Ilford Rule
Date Posted: 23 February 2006 at 4:52pm
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thats true. as for the timing thing: the flow control valve slows down
the rate at which it would fully extend the piston, so thats how ROF is
controlled. the same thing would keep it in time. it wouldnt instantly
release the sear again because it takes a quantity of gas to fully
extend the piston to the firing position.
------------- CPro (w/ polished internals) 14" Bigshot BT SBS Various Rails NcSTAR D4B Macro AA 68/45
CCI Phantom 45 Grips |
Posted By: RavenGuard
Date Posted: 24 February 2006 at 9:51pm
Gas moves fast, you'd have to vent TONNES of it, and it'd be extremely gas innefficient because of that. I thought of this idea too a while back while looking at schematics of the e-grip, but now I realize it'll take much more thinking to accomplish. How do real firearms accomplish this? Never heard of batteries in an M-16, but they have 3 round burst, and real guns work in the same overall manner a paintball gun does. Maybe with a bit of research this could be figured out. It'd probably end up costing tonnes though... but considering I could probably buy an ak47 for something around $200 us, and my a-5 costed me more... i guess u need the right parts to get it done cheap aswell. Good luck figuring this out... i'll just be struggling with making that home made r/t :p ------------- Tippmann A-5 Polished Internals E-Grip Ape Board JCS Blade Trigger QEV 8" Bigshot + Apex Ricochet R-5 / Tac Cap Palmers Stabilizer 68/4500 Crossfire |
Posted By: 98Rebelmann
Date Posted: 25 February 2006 at 10:44am
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Some of the best advice yet. Build your prototype first and work out all of the bugs, test it in every condition that you would see out on the paintball field. When you are sure that it is a fail safe idea, you can go ahead with the patent process. You do need a patent attorney for the process. He will research the current patents and pending patents to be sure that your idea doesn't allready exist. The patent office is extremely picky about the drawings. The line types have to be right, the leadlines have to be done correctly, and specific views and flow charts are needed. And, once all this is started, there is a time limit as to when it has to be completed or you have to start over. This is why all the bugs need to be worked out of your idea. You also need to know what materials the components will be made of and that what you put in it will be worth someone purchasing. I think it is a good idea, Go for it, and good luck. ------------- >98 Custom RT, Cyclone, BigShot, 6-pos. stock >98 Custom Pro E-Trigger, Freak barrel >98 Custom RT, Cyclone, Flatline >98 w/ tank forward >2 Smartparts ION's >Spyder LCD |
Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 25 February 2006 at 12:19pm
Hehehehe, you have no idea how one of those sprinklers work. Try HowStuffWorks.com |
Posted By: RED5MOKE
Date Posted: 27 February 2006 at 12:23am
| ya i did paten drawings for a guy. Thats why i said that. He was telling me some of the stuff he went through. At your age and with your budget (just guessing) just try making it for yourself. If you like it great if not then just go back to your stock stuff. |
Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 27 February 2006 at 8:02am
------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl Forum Vice President RIP T&O Forum |
Posted By: sniper6
Date Posted: 27 February 2006 at 10:20pm
| not on the paintball, the valve |
Posted By: Ilford Rule
Date Posted: 01 March 2006 at 6:51pm
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Just wanted to let everyone know: im probably going to build a large
scale prototype this friday using a general pneumatics setup in my
school robotics lab. ive redesigned it, using a switching block to return the cylinder to neutral. there will be a roller switch at the end of the piston stroke, so that it is released when it reaches full stroke. i understand all this, i just cant articulate it. ill do a diagram of the changes if it works. ------------- CPro (w/ polished internals) 14" Bigshot BT SBS Various Rails NcSTAR D4B Macro AA 68/45
CCI Phantom 45 Grips |
Posted By: Thee Tippinator
Date Posted: 02 March 2006 at 10:50pm
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what if instead u just ran the piston off a second tap on ur asa and their was a valve somewhere between there and the piston that was switch by the trigger being pulled. then it would be easy to make it walkable and still legal cuz it would be fully auto ------------- 98 Custom -remote line, 6 pos stock, sling -CP 16in, Revy w/ x board,RT -milled sight, letters, foregrip, misc other |
Posted By: Thee Tippinator
Date Posted: 02 March 2006 at 10:51pm
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EDIT*- . . . and the piston that was switched by the trigger. . . ------------- 98 Custom -remote line, 6 pos stock, sling -CP 16in, Revy w/ x board,RT -milled sight, letters, foregrip, misc other |
Posted By: Thee Tippinator
Date Posted: 03 March 2006 at 8:11am
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Edit* wouldnt be fully auto
------------- 98 Custom -remote line, 6 pos stock, sling -CP 16in, Revy w/ x board,RT -milled sight, letters, foregrip, misc other |
Posted By: A5 dude
Date Posted: 04 March 2006 at 9:52pm
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Raven Guard it would be a gas hog if you could find some way to use you vented gas to your advantage like run a cyclone or some thing.Also you need to make a prototype get some old model 98 or something and build one if you sdcrew up you aint got much in it.I see where you are going with this and even though im just 14 I think if you did it right it would work.But there is going to be bugs in whatever you make so you will have to just work those out. ------------- A5 dude |
Posted By: sniper6
Date Posted: 11 March 2006 at 10:28pm
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so Ilford, did you ever make that model at school |
Posted By: raflexjrsr
Date Posted: 17 March 2006 at 5:58pm
first make sure it works
|
Posted By: Ilford Rule
Date Posted: 21 March 2006 at 10:36pm
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Ya, i did make the prototype. it works great, but im having trouble
timing the flow control valves. they have to all be in sync with each
other (there are 4: 2 on the piston, and 2 on the switching block).
when it works, and i control everything, i can choose ROF. its awesome.
i think ill put a control valve in the power line to the switching block and remove the others. ill let you guys know if it works ------------- CPro (w/ polished internals) 14" Bigshot BT SBS Various Rails NcSTAR D4B Macro AA 68/45
CCI Phantom 45 Grips |