Cedric wrote: Linus, explain this. http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osamatape.html - http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osamatape.html That's not osama.

I rebut ALL references to that site with a link to their index:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/quickindex/ - http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/quickindex/

By association with the vast amount of total nonsense on that site, any claim presented therefrom faces a much higher burden of proof.

(Translation:  That site is full of crap.  I won't believe anything from that site without independent verification from a reputable source.)

choopie911 wrote: Well, how are at least 7 of the hijackers still alive? How did the black boxes get destroyed, but a passport survived? How come osama, a religious extremest, is wearing gold in his video, a strict no-no for him. How come he's writing with the wrong hand? How come the engine dimensions found at the pentagon are roughly 1/3 of those of a 757? How come there was a line on the lawn in line with the "plane" ahead of time already? How come there are no wings, or damage from the wings with the impact at the pentagon? How come if you watch the stills the FBI released regarding the pentagon...you see nothing...then an explosion...no HUGE 757 ANYWHERE in the frames. How come the people on the planes were calling loved ones, and using their full names for some reason, and asking "you beleive me right?"

The answers to virtually all of these questions are fairly readily ascertainable with a modicum of effort.  The fact that the conspiracy theorists present only their view without presenting the obvious counterpoints further undermines their credibility.

The steel melting is a good example - conspiracy theorists continue to raise this point, despite that any structural engineer on the planet can tell you that the steel doesn't have to melt.  The people putting forth that theory not only didn't research the issue, but are actively avoiding information that conflicts with their pre-supposed conclusion.

That makes them utterly unbelievable in all things.

Cedric wrote:   Anyone with eyes can see it's not him.

That's a bold statement from somebody who has never met (I presume) Osama...

The story of the destruction of the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, does not begin on that day. It began shortly after World War One. After the war, Jesuit Edward Mandell House and Woodrow Wilson created the League of Nations. When U.S. Senator Henry Cabot Lodge Sr. kept America out of the League. the Jesuits were furious. This must never happen again. So, in 1921, under the influence of House, an organization was formed in the United States called the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR).

This organization attracted people of power, wealth, and influence. It enlisted politicians, people from the media, and big businessmen. The ultimate goal of the CFR was to break down all national boundaries and to establish a one-world system of government. Rear Admiral Chester Ward, a member of the CFR for 16 years, stated:

The most powerful clique in these elitist groups have one objective in common — they want to bring about the surrender of the sovereignty of the national independence of the United States. — Barry Goldwater, With No Apologies, William Morrow and Company, page 278.

The Jesuits have always hated America and everything this country stands for, and they work tirelessly to destroy this country.

The great objective of the CFR was the destruction of American sovereignty and constitutional liberties. To accomplish this, both the Republican and Democratic parties were to be controlled, and a central bank was to be created, the Federal Reserve Bank.

When a new President comes on board, there is a great turnover in personnel, but no change in policy. Example: During the Nixon [a Republican] years Henry Kissinger, CFR member and Nelson Rockefeller’s protégé, was in charge of foreign policy. When Jimmy Carter [a Democrat] was elected, Kissinger was replaced by Zbigniew Brzezinski, CFR member and David Rockefeller’s protégé. — Ibid. page 279.

The Jesuits have been extremely successful in carrying out the purposes of the papacy’s malignant Congress at Vienna, Verona, and Chieri. The Jesuits, with the aid of their CFR, control the highest of echelons in the political, judicial, business, banking, media, and religious arenas in the United States. Their plans are right on schedule.

When they failed to get America into the League of Nations after World War One, they created the CFR, which began immediately to use the schools, colleges, and the media to condition Americans to accept the Jesuits’ second attempt to create a world government after World War Two. America was so conditioned by then that they accepted the United Nations, and joined.

The Jesuits’ CFR is extremely dangerous to the continued existence of the American Republic. A few patriots like Chester Ward and President Kennedy rejected their malicious plans and fought their agenda. Kennedy paid for his disobedience to the Jesuits with his life. Some of the past CFR members who were either Jesuits or Jesuit pawns to do their bidding are Dwight D. Eisenhower, Richard Nixon, Adlai Stevenson, Hubert Humphrey, and George McGovern. Current members of the Jesuit CFR include Federal Reserve Bank chairman Alan Greenspan, Congressmen Newt Gingrich and Richard Gephardt, both presidents George Herbert Walker Bush and his son, George Walker Bush, Vice president **edited** Cheney, Secretary of State Colin Powell, Supreme Court justice Sandra Day O’Connor, Joseph Lieberman, and John Chafee. (Chafee was the man who introduced gun laws after Waco, remember?) Bill Clinton, of course, is a member of the CFR.

Major companies under Jesuit/CFR control include the Ford Motor Company, Boeing Corporation, Pepsi-Cola, Heinz Co., Lockheed-Martin, Time Warner, and Chevron. In the media, NBC, CBS, N.Y. Times, Washington Post, Newsweek, and Time, are just a few media outfits dominated by the Jesuits. All these organizations promote the Jesuits’ plan for destroying America. Some top media people who promote the Jesuit Plan include Tom Brokaw, Barbara Walters, David Brinkley, John Chancellor, Katharine Graham, and Ted Koppel, all CFR members.

John Swinton, Chief of Staff for the New York Times, who is considered to be the dean of his profession, made a most bold confession. In 1953, at a New York Press Club, he declared,

There is no such thing, at this date of the world’s history, in America, as an independent press. You know it, and I know it. There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinion out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job. If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my newspaper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone. The business of the journalists is to destroy the truth; to lie outright; to pervert; to vilify; to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread. You know it, and I know it and what folly is this toasting an independent press? We are the tools and vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes. — Multiple contributors, A U.S. Police Action: Operation Vampire Killer, The American Citizens and Laumen Association, pp. 18,19, (emphasis supplied).

Swinton explained so well that the media are under the control of the rich. We have previously shown that the richest people in America are either Jesuits or are under their control. The Jesuits are telling us, via the newspapers, magazines, and every other mass-media communication outlet, exactly what they want us to believe. One of their biggest efforts is to make the people of the world believe that the pope is the great man of peace, when, in reality, the pope and his Jesuits are working constantly to establish the pope as the supreme dictator of the world as he was in the Dark Ages. When they accomplish this, the horrible persecution by the papacy in the Dark Ages will return. Americans are being beguiled to give up their constitutional civil liberties and their country. The tragedies we are witnessing today are blamed on terrorists, but these terrorist organizations have been infiltrated and controlled by the Jesuits. This very effectively covers up the footprints of the papacy in these tragedies.

Let us now turn to the destruction of the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001. Along with the total destruction of the World Trade Center, thousands of innocent people died. The negative impact on America and its economy has been devastating. Multiple businesses have been ruined by the fallout.

In order to defend against future attacks like this, the United States Government made a feeble attempt to find the perpetrators of this atrocity in Afghanistan. But their major thrust in this war against terrorism has been to take away what is left of the rights and liberties of American citizens. For some unexplained reason, if the civil rights of American citizens are taken away, there isn’t supposed to be any more terrorism. This onslaught against Americans has come from the White House, the Justice Department, Congress, and the news media. The people in government take a solemn oath to defend and obey the Constitution of the United States, but their oath has been shown to be a gigantic lie. They totally and completely ignore the constitution as they pass their destructive legislation and executive orders.

From the beginning of his presidency, George Bush has been promoting the Jesuit agenda. Two months into his presidency, surrounded by cardinals of Rome, the President dedicated a cultural center in Washington, D.C. to the greatest enemy this Republic has ever had — the pope of Rome. Bush declared that he is going to enforce the words and teachings of the pope here in America.

The best way to honor Pope John Paul II, truly one of the great men, is to take his teachings seriously, to listen to his words and put his words and his teachings into action here in America! — Patricia Zapoa, Catholic News Service, March 24, 2001.

John Paul’s words and teachings represent the plan to destroy Protestantism, to destroy the Constitution of the United States, and to restore his throne as universal monarch. By his own words, we see that George Bush is carrying out the plan of the Jesuits to destroy America.

In 1960, John Kennedy went from Washington to Texas to assure Protestant preachers that he would not obey the pope. In 2001, George Bush came from Texas up to Washington to assure a group of Catholic bishops that he would obey the pope. — Washington Times, April 16, 2001.

Who is calling the shots in Washington, D.C.? If we think it is the President of the U.S., we are deceiving ourselves.

The pope is the ruler of the world. All the emperors, all the kings, all the princes, all the presidents of the world are as these altar boys of mine. — Priest D. S. Phelan, Western Watchman, June 27, 1912

Should we be surprised if Bush and his fellow altar boys are pushing the Jesuit program? Should we be surprised to see Bush issuing executive orders that destroy constitutional liberties? Should we be surprised to see Congress passing laws that destroy constitutional liberties?

This is alarming information. The highest echelons in the United States Government, the highest echelons in business and finance, and the highest echelons in the schools, colleges, and media, are all claiming to be Americans. They are all claiming to be working for the betterment of America. They are all claiming to be working for the preservation of the Constitution. In fact, they are under the control of the Jesuits, the most implacable enemies of this Republic. With a patriotic and religious facade, they are secretly leading America to ruin. Deception is being practiced by the most sinister of foes, the Jesuits of Rome.

It is here that the tremendous power of the church makes itself felt. It is through this direction [Jesuits] that statesmen are compelled to act, not for the benefit of the country to which they belong, but for the benefit of the Church, which controls them. — M. F. Cusack, The Black Pope, Marshall, Russell, and Co., p. 106.

What has happened in the aftermath of the World Trade Center destruction? The day after the center was destroyed the Orlando Sentinel writes,

Experts, however, say there is much work to be done. And it will involve much more spending and planning, hardening of key facilities and, perhaps, higher taxes and forfeiture of some personal freedoms. — Tighter Security Means Less Freedom, Orlando Sentinel, Wednesday, September 12th, (emphasis supplied).

As the United States faces a new war against uncertain and hidden enemies, the temptation to sacrifice our freedom in the hopes of protecting ourselves from harm is powerful.

The danger is that we will end up neither safe nor free.

The constitutional protections of speech and privacy that Americans value so highly reflect a balance between individual liberty and state security. Just how those lines are drawn, history teaches, is directly affected by the perceived threats to our country’s security….

We’re faced with real threats to national security. The challenge is to meet those threats without endangering our constitutional character or undermining the freedom and liberty that are the source of our power. — USA Today, Thursday, Sept. 13, 2001 (emphasis supplied).

Freedom or safety? Anti terrorism measures may mean forfeiture of some personal freedoms. — Orlando Sentinel, Wednesday, September 12th, (emphasis supplied).

In the reader forum of the Orlando Sentinel, Sept. 12th, the question was raised, “What personal freedoms would you give up to fight terrorism?” One person, the next day, wrote in and said, “I have no problem with having to give up something for the greater good of myself and my brothers and sisters.” This person does not realize that as the government usurps more and more power; liberty, freedom, and safety decrease in direct proportion. This person does not realize that when the government has all the power, no one is safe, and bloody persecution is the result. Remember Waco?

The main purpose of the World Trade Center tragedy was to make American citizens willing to give up their freedoms. The World Trade Center attack was necessary because the bombing in Oklahoma did not panic the American people enough to get more of the desired so-called ‘antiterrorism laws’ passed.

Virginia Sloan realized that if the terrorists wanted to attack American freedoms they had got some where…

Civil libertarians expect renewed calls for a national identification card….

And that means storing all the face data collected, something civil libertarians fear will allow the government to track any individual. If systems were set up all over a city, you could be ‘checkpointed’ by camera when you board a train, stop at a cash machine and enter a store, or the place where you work. — Time Magazine, Sept. 24, 2001.

One of the scary things about face recognition is that it is notoriously unreliable. You might be identified as a terrorist because the machine made a mistake.

Some of the staunchest defenders of individual rights, most notably the American Civil Liberties Union, so far have been silent on the issue. The organization forbade its officials from publicly speculating last week on possible fallout from Tuesday’s tragedy. The ACLU instead issued a brief statement urging ‘our leaders to continue to uphold the principles of liberty the nation holds dear as they pursue those responsible for this devastating attack on American soil.’

Privately, libertarians are worried the stampede for added security will trample cherished freedoms. They point out some of the proposals making the rounds already were considered and rejected by the government in the wake of the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing….

An April 1995 Los Angeles Times poll immediately after the bombing found 49 percent of those surveyed thought it would be ‘necessary for the average person to give up some civil liberties.’ 43 percent disagreed. A follow-up poll…11 months later found only 30 percent still thought civil liberties would have to be sacrificed and 65 percent said it was unnecessary. — Orlando Sentinel, September 13, 2001.

There has been an onslaught of media articles and statements suggesting the giving up of certain civil liberties just as the Jesuit agenda requires. On October 26, 2001, George Bush signed the misnamed USA Patriot Act of 2001, which was proposed five days after the tragedy. Just six weeks after the World Trade Center was destroyed, this bill was passed. This is truly amazing. It is virtually impossible for a bill to be conceived, written, debated, and passed this quickly. You see, they already had the bill written before the tragedy occurred.

The bill enhances the ability of federal authorities to tap phones, share intelligence information, track Internet usage, e-mails and cell phones and protect U.S. borders. — Bush Signs Sweeping New Laws to Combat Terrorism, Reuters News Service, October 26, 2001.

Laura Murphy of the American Civil Liberties Union stated in that article, “We cannot as a nation allow very legitimate public anxiety to immunize the administration and Congress from their obligation to protect the Bill of Rights and the fundamental values that document embodies.” In the name of fighting terrorism, the government is taking away Constitutional liberties and freedoms just as fast as they can. This will lead to terrible persecution in the United States, which will be much worse than the physical tragedies themselves.

Lawmakers upset with some of the administrations anti-terrorism actions will question Attorney General John Ashcroft on the matter.

[Certain Congressmen] say the administration’s actions have gone too far in infringing on civil liberties. — USA Today, November 26, 2001, (emphasis supplied).

In the same paper, on the same day, there’s a cartoon of two children, decorating a Christmas tree. One sings, “He sees you when you are sleeping, He knows when you are awake, He knows if you have been bad or good….” The other child says, “Enough about Attorney General Ashcroft already!”

In America, in the last eight years, there have been three terrible tragedies: Waco, Oklahoma City, and the World Trade Center. In every case, the government’s solution to the problems has been greatly increased government power and the loss of Constitutional liberties and freedoms. In this short time period of eight years, we have seen a very serious despoiling of the Constitution, the greatest document ever created by men. An insidious war is raging against Constitutional liberty in America. In the aftermath of the World Trade Center destruction, this certainly has been the focal point of politicians and media. Claiming to be loyal Americans, agents of the Jesuits in Congress and the media have been carrying out the their plan to destroy America with almost no opposition.

Remember, the Jesuits are totally antagonistic to the American Constitution and everything it stands for. Charles Chiniquy says,

Long before I was ordained a priest, I knew that my church was the most implacable enemy of this republic. My professors… had been unanimous in telling me that the principles and laws of the Church of Rome were absolutely antagonistic to the principles which are the foundations stones of the Constitution of the United States of America. — Charles Chiniquy, Fifty Years in the Church of Rome, Chick Publications, p. 283.

Watch carefully as Chiniquy compares the distinctions between the two.

1st. The most sacred principle of the United States Constitution is the equality of every citizen before the law. But the fundamental principle of the Church of Rome is the denial of that equality.

2nd. Liberty of conscience is proclaimed by the United States, a most sacred principle which every citizen must uphold, even at the price of his blood. But liberty of conscience is declared by all the popes and councils of Rome, a most godless, unholy, and diabolical thing, which every good Catholic must abhor and destroy at any cost.

3rd. The American Constitution assures the absolute independence of the civil from the ecclesiastical or church power; but the Church of Rome declares that such independence is an impiety and revolt against God.

4th. The American Constitution leaves every man free to serve God according to the dictates of his conscience; but the Church of Rome declares that no man has ever had such a right, and that the pope alone can know and say what man must believe and do.

5th. The Constitution of the United States denies the right for anybody to punish any other for differing from him in religion; but the Church of Rome says that she has the right to punish with the confiscation of their goods, or the penalty of death, those who differ in faith from the pope.

6th. The United States have established schools all over their immense territories, where they invite the peoples to send their children, that they may cultivate their intelligence and become good and useful citizens. But the Church of Rome has publicly cursed all those schools, and forbidden their children to attend them, under pain of excommunication in this world and damnation in the next.

7th. The Constitution of the United States is based on the principle that the people are the primary source of all civil power. But hundreds of times, the Church of Rome has proclaimed that this principle is impious and heretical. She says that all government must rest upon the foundation of the Catholic faith; with the pope alone as the legitimate and infallible source and interpreter of the law. — Ibid. p. 284.

We saw that the President of the United States declared in the Washington Times that he is going to obey the pope. If so, he must destroy the Constitution. In the aftermath of the destruction of the World Trade Center, Bush has apparently been following the pope’s agenda to the letter.

Nothing is plainer than that, if the principles of the church of Rome prevail here, our Constitution would fall. The two cannot exist together. They are in open and direct antagonism with the fundamental theory of our government and of all popular government everywhere. — Richard Thompson, The Papacy and the Civil Power, quoted in Fifty Years in the Church of Rome, p. 285,

If Catholics ever gain a sufficient numerical majority in this country, religious freedom is at an end. — The Shepherd of the Valley, official journal of the Bishop of St. Louis, November 23rd, 1851.

The destruction of the World Trade Center and the destruction of the Murrah building in Oklahoma City were planned events for the specific purpose of creating terror in America so that Americans, in fear, would give away their Constitutional liberties and freedoms. The Jesuits’ plan is working extremely well. With politicians, schools and colleges, the media, and big corporations in their hands, America is being rapidly defeated by the enemy within.

As American troops prepared to do battle with an extreme Moslem faction in Afghanistan, USA Today quoted the President as saying, “his administration is readying a crusade against terrorism.” (USA Today, September 17, 2001.)

A crusade? Crusades were Catholic holy wars fought during the Dark Ages against Moslem hordes who refused to relinquish Jerusalem to the pope. What does George Bush mean by a crusade? Alberto Rivera, an ex-Jesuit priest, in his crusader series, has made it clear that the Vatican created Islam to destroy Christians and Jews, protect Roman Catholics, and to capture Jerusalem for the pope. For the first few hundred years of their existence, Islam did just that. When it came time for the powerful generals of the Islamic armies to surrender Jerusalem to the pope, they, realizing their power, refused to give it up. Thus, the papacy created the Crusades to drive the Islamic forces out of Jerusalem, and establish the throne of the pope in Jerusalem.

Why a crusade now? Why are America and extremist Islamic factions fighting? There are three things the Jesuits wish to accomplish from this situation. As we have seen, the Constitution has been a thorn in their side for hundreds of years; they want it destroyed completely. By continuing to create terror in America, the Jesuits will one day get their ultimate goal. They also want to pay back the Islamic extremists for disobeying them when they didn’t give the pope Jerusalem when he wanted it. Finally, war will continue in the Middle East until the weary multitudes of the world cry out for a peaceful solution to the conflict. When that time arrives, guess who will be considered the only peacemaker whose presence in Jerusalem would bring the long coveted peace? Placing the pope as leader in that troubled region will appear to be the only answer because the controlled press/media will have conditioned everyone to the idea. So, the pope will reign in Jerusalem; mission accomplished.

Let us consider Osama bin Laden. Bin Laden was aided by America during the Afghan-Soviet conflict in the 1980s and was fighting with America during the Balkan conflict in the late 1990s. Overwhelming information reveals bin Laden’s business ties to the Bush family, and he has had contact with the CIA as late as July, 2000. Osama bin Laden is a plant just like Lee Harvey Oswald and Timothy McVeigh were plants. He is being used as the patsy to keep the blame away from where it really belongs — the Jesuits of the papacy.

Milt Bearden, an ex-CIA Afghanistan operations director and bin Laden’s intelligence advisor, was interviewed by Dan Rather on September 12, 2001. Rather wanted Bearden to state that bin Laden was responsible for the World Trade Center disaster. Bearden stated, “If they didn’t have an Osama bin Laden, they would invent one.”

Recently, Rick Wiles, speaker for the American Freedom News, interviewed Dr. Koryagina, the economic advisor to Vladimir Putin, leader of Russia. In the interview, she discussed secret societies, criminal and religious organizations that are controlling the world. She also declared that there is a shadow government seeking to bring down the United States and bring in world government. She warned in Moscow, in July of 2001, that the United States would be attacked. She said that when the American people wake up to what is happening to them, and who did it, they will be in a state of shock. “Everybody knows about organized crime and the Mafia. Also people have known for a long time about secret societies and so forth. During my research, I started to notice that those structures can be put together and can be joined. And I realized that right now, we have a criminal monster, a hybrid of organized crime, Mafia and secret societies that have merged together.” (aired December 6, 2001)

Will we listen to the words of this renowned Russian economist? Secret societies are bringing all these agencies together to create a one world government. When America figures it out, they will be in shock. Dr. Koryagina said everything but naming the secret society that is calling the shots, and who masterminded the World Trade Center destruction. The Jesuits of Rome.

 

http://www.pacinst.com/index.htm -

It amazes me the amount of conspiracy theories that come out about our government. I can't and won't try to debate any form of structural damage done, as I don't debate things I don't know crap about, but I will say that the basis for these things is completely ridiculous.

A:) Our government doesn't need an excuse to pass invasive laws. Maybe they used 9/11 facts as an argument, but they would have done it anyway. Saying that they needed 9/11 borders on idiocy-don't forget that half the time the country will blindly support any form of legislative that comes through if it's presented right. We live in a country of naive idiots that will basically believe anything CNN, or God forbid Jon Stewart, tells them. The same goes for conservatives and Fox, or Sean Hannity, Limbaugh, and all the rest of the hardcores.

B:) The same people that come up with this BS also will tell you that we're all under mind control, drooling and doing the government's will. The government is, in fact, the easiest entity to throw stones at because we allow them to operate without question or investigation. That's our fault-but I can't point out much of anything with overwhelming evidence that points our government out trying to control our every move. I think even the most radical left-wing socialist college professor couldn't care less about controlling me and my job-he simply has different economic policies than me.

C:) There's simpy no political interest in such a feat. There would be far easier and less costly ways to move on an agenda. This is just a part of the anti-Bush folks with way too much time on their hands.

Not that I'm saying everyone here is a radical socialist-I'm just saying enough with the conspiracy theories. Why don't we go into Roswell, and the Kennedy shootings. After all, the government doesn't want us knowing about aliens (for God knows what reason), and Kennedy was shot by the CIA, right? Oh wait, that's all silly. My bad.

Someone please explain to me why, if the government is going to go through all the trouble of setting up an attack like 9/11 and hijacking planes, they would bother firing a missle at the Pentagon? If they're going to plant explosives in the building to aid in the demolitions, why bother with the planes at all? Why not just blow it up and say terrorists smuggled the explosives in? If you're going to use the planes anyway, wouldn't you be concerned about them damaging the charges so it can't be brought down?

Not to mention the hole that appeared in the Pentagon was aproximatly the size of the fuselage of a 757(which isn't really a huge airplane compared to a 747, which everyone seems to confuse this thing with). Wings on an airplane like that wouldn't be apt to penetrate a target, since they lack sectional density like the fuselage(think about which object is easier to stab something with, an icepick of a putty knife?)and would either be smashed into about a zillion peices on impact, or had enough foreward momentum to fold up along side of the fusealge and travel through the hole punched in the wall by the nose of the plane. Also the pentagon wall collapsed after the impact, which a lot of people try to figure as the shape of the initial hole.

As for why the planes behaved differently on the towers, the pentagon is a multi-ringed structure of concrete, it would make a much better trap for debris than the trade towers. Bodies ejected from the aircraft? Not surprising. After the fuel tanks blew, everything behind them was expelled outward, including bodies that littered the streets and rooftops.

After a certain height, the steel supports for the trade towers were not insulated with asbestos, since hey stopped using that sometime during it's construction. Steel bends pretty easily when it's hot, no surprise they collapsed.

But why in the world do I even have to bother explaining this stuff? If you're hell bent on beleiving it's a conspiracy, you're always going to find some outlandish way of supporting that assumption. It's very easy when you conveniantly ignor the most plausable explainations, or any facts that disagree with your opinion. Why is it that all too often the same people who dismiss religion as being rediculous since it can require ignoring blatantly obvious explainations of things are the same ones who hang onto rediculous conspiracy theories like this?

EDIT: Flanker, try the quote button

Linus wrote: choopie911 wrote: Jet fuel cant melt steel...steel was melted. PM wrote: Jet fuel burns at 800° to 1500°F, not hot enough to melt steel (2750°F). However, experts agree that for the towers to collapse, their steel frames didn't need to melt, they just had to lose some of their structural strength--and that required exposure to much less heat. Cedric.. that website is pure speculation from people who probably dont have any experience authenticating videos, do they?

yes, steel does melt at 2750°F. however, there are two very critical pieces that you are forgetting:
A) the material in question must be PERFECT. chances are the website that this figure was taken from simply quoted from an engineering materials textbook. if anyone has taken an engineering materials class, you'll know that the strength of a material depends on many factors (ie surface finish, minor imperfections in the material, how the material was produced, such as hot rolled, cold drawn, oil/water quenched and tempered, etc.) therefore, only a specimen that is 100% perfect will perform like was listed above. just to give you an example, 1040 cold drawn steel has a ultimate strength of 80,000 psi, meaning that the material will ideally fail after 80,000 psi of stress. however, if you take a 1'' rod made of 1040 CD steel, that has been machined, and with a 99% accuracy rating, it's actual ultimate strength will probably be around 20,000 psi....

B) steel will only melt at 2750°F if there are no other forces acting on it at the same time; now, we obviously know that the I-beams and other supports in the twin towers were subjected to other forces (ie wind, gravity, etc.) because of this, the heat required to cause the structural steel to melt would be alot lower...

hmmmmm...there's some food for thought. feel free to comment.

You still can't prove to me that the government needed to go to those extremes to move forward an agenda. And saying that they did it to get into Iraq is pure ignorance-you'd have to be a complete idiot to risk your very life, kill 3,000 people, flatten your Pentagon, and cover it up just to go to war with a country like Iraq. Then use a questionable excuse like WMD's to go in? I mean, even if you hate him, give Bush credit for this-he'd have to be alot smarter than that.

Think about it-do you realize the depths you'd have to reach to cover something like this up? You'd have to trust literally hundreds of people, many of whom would probably slit your politcal throat at any time they could, and then manage to do it all out of the sight of the general public.

All just to go to war with a country we already have numerous excuses to go to war with.

The same goes for the Patriot Act, which you could have used a thousand excuses to pass. Like I said before, the American public is far too ignorant to worry about such a cover-up like this.