i want to be a sniper
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Topic: i want to be a sniper
Posted By: RED_B@ng
Subject: i want to be a sniper
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 1:33am
i want to be a sniper but im not sure what barrel to get for my A-5 im thinking a flatline but then u cant drop balls on people. i was also looking at an apex does anyone know if its any good?
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Replies:
Posted By: hybrid-sniper
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 2:06am
Posted By: Snake6
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 6:43am
...
The History of Military Sniping, and how it relates to the Game of
Paintball.
Ok. So I got bored, and I am sick and tried of this stupid sniper debate. I
got a Barnes and Noble gift card for Christmas, and didn’t know what else to
get so I picked up several books on Military Snipers. Here are my findings.
< -- Note: Due to a problem with my code, you have to Highlight my
rifle comparison tables to see them. It’s a bother, but if someone knows how to
fix it, PM me. -- >
First lets go over the basics of what a sniper is, and what a sniper is not.
“A sniper…is considered a specialist, whose prime function is to kill
selected high value targets at long range using superior skill and armament. A
sharpshooter, by contrast, is a rifleman (proficient or otherwise) who acts in
an opportunist manner, taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”
From SNIPER by Adrian Gilbert
Keep this in your mind as you read the rest of the article.
The American Revolution
(1775-83)
Sniping first came onto the battlefield during the American Revolution.
Standard infantry of this period were equipped with “Brown Bess” smoothbore
muskets. The Continental Congress approves 10 independent companies, armed with
long rifles. The men of these companies were the first snipers.
Comparison between the “Brown Bess” musket, and the Long Rifle.
“A soldiers musket, if not exceedingly ill bored (as many are), will strike
the figure of a man at 80 yards: it may even at 100, but a soldier must be very
unfortunate indeed who shall be wounded by a common musket at 150 yards,
provided that the antagonist aims at him; as to firing at a man at 200 yards,
with a common, musket, you might as well fire at the moon.” –British Major
Hanger, on the “Brown Bess” musket
In contrast, the American Long Rifle (as carried by the Irregular
companies), was effective in ranges up to 300 yards, and headshots could be
achieved at 200. At these ranges American Snipers picked-off high ranking
British Officers. During the battle of Saratoga
an American sniper brought down British General Simon Frasier from a range of
300 yards. Despite its advantages the long rifle had several disadvantages. Its
slow reload time(2 shots a minute), and lack of bayonet fixture made it useful
only as a skirmisher weapon, not for use as a standard infantry weapon.
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Brown Bess
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Long Rifle
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Range:
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80 Yards
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300 Yards
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Muzzle Velocity:
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1100-1300 fps
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~1600fps
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Ammunition:
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.75 caliber ball
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.40-.70 caliber ball
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As you can see from the table, the Rifle outranged the common muskets of the
time by over 200 yards. Also the muzzle velocity of the Rifle was much higher
than that of the Brown Bess.
The War of Northern Aggression (American Civil War) (1861-65)
During the Civil War, the standard infantry rifles were the Enfield(for the south), and the Springfield(for the
north). These were muzzleloading rifles with effective ranges up to 500 yards.
The confederacy managed to acquire Witworth and Kerr rifles from Europe for their snipers. These rifles had an effective
range of well over 1200 yards, and hits were reported at over 1500 yards.
Confederate Snipers were selected in a manner which has been used to select
snipers in most present wars. The best men from each infantry regiment entered
into shooting competitions. They were required to hit man-sized boards at 500
yards. The best shooters were given the prized Kerr and Witworth rifles. They
then went through extensive training in the use of these rifles.
The snipers were warned never to get within 400 yards of the enemy, but to
use their superior range, to keep the enemy at a safe distance.
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Springfield/Enfield
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Kerr & Withworth
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Range:
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1200+ yards
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500 Yards
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Muzzle Velocity:
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Ammunition:
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.451 Hexagonal Slug
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World War I (1914-18)
US Snipers during World War I used modified, and accurized versions of
the standard service rifle the Springfield
1903, equipped with 2 to 4 power scopes. Snipers during the war mostly sniped
from behind the MLR, the main trench line. These snipers were Infantrymen taken
off the line, and equipped with scoped rifles. With their rifles they could
pick the enemy off 3 or 4 trench lines back from the MLR. The marksmanship
standard for infantry of the time was to be able to hit a standing man from
around 100 yards. The snipers were trained to hit targets from over 500 yards.
World War II (1938-45)
World War II snipers were selected in different manners during the war. I
will concentrate on the Marine Corps Snipers trained at Green’s Farm because
the documentation of this school and its snipers is the best. There, snipers
were instructed in 5 week courses in marksmanship, camouflage, and field craft.
They were trained to approach a target using stealth and to eliminate the
target from long distances. These snipers were required to hit a moving target
at 500 yards, and to hit a stationary target at 1000. They were equipped much
the same way as snipers in WWI were. These snipers used accurized
versions of the M1903 Springfield service rifle, the A1 or A3 variants equipped
with 2 or 4 power scopes. Marine Infantry qualified at 500 yards.
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M1 Garand
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M1903A3
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Range
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500 yards
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1000yards
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Ammunition
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.30-06
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.30-06
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Korea (1950-53)
Korea,
in the latter part of the war turned into a bogged down war of attrition,
looking somewhat like the trench warfare of WWI. This, alongside Korea’s terrain
of rolling hills combined to make it prime sniper territory. Sniping tactics in
Korea
did not change much from the tactics of WWII so I will not elaborate on them.
The rifles also remained the same. Snipers in Korea were equipped with 1903A3
Variant Springfield’s, and National Match M1’s(which were used in competition
shooting because they were more accurate than the standard M1) Equipped with 4
power scopes(the M1D model). The accuracy of the M1 was not as good as that of
the Springfield,
due to the need to offset the scope, and have major Eye Relief built-in to the
rifle due to the Clip Feed of the M1. These M1’s still were able to reach
ranges of 500 yards accurately. In Korea the use of the .50 caliber
round for sniping was first seen. M2 Machine Guns mounted with a 10 power scope
were able to reach ranges of 2800 yards effectively, Snipers also experimented
with .55 Caliber Boy’s antitank rifles modified to take .50 caliber rounds, and
mounted with scopes which had the same range as the M2, but was able to be
carried by a man whereas the M2’s were limited to fixed positions.
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M1D Sniper Model
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M1903A3 Sniper
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M2 Machine Gun
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Range
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500 yards
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1000 yards
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2500 yards
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Ammunition
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.30-06
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.30-06
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.50 Caliber
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Vietnam (1965-75)
Vietnam
is the perfect example of how a sniper can be employed during combat. The
restrictive ROE and vast open fields and rice paddy’s of Vietnam became
prime sniper territory. The Marine Corps and the Army both Fielded Snipers.
Army snipers were equipped with accurized versions of the M14 service rifle,
accurate out to 700 yards. The Marine Corps fielded snipers equipped with
Winchester Model 70 Hunting rifles firing the .30-06 cartridge, and later in
the war snipers carried the M40, which fired the standard 7.62x51mm(.308)
cartridge both of these rifles had an effective range of over 1000 yards. Also
snipers used modified M2 .50 caliber machine guns, fitted with scopes. These
were accurate to ranges out to 2500 yards. Normal infantry of the time fired
the M16 Assault Rifle, and the enemy fired the AK-47 assault rifle. These
rifles were designed for infantry combat which takes place in ranges of only
around 200 yards, and can only be fired accurately up to 500 yards. Thus
snipers were able to operate with impunity from beyond the range of effective
return fire of the enemy.
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M16
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Winchester
70
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M40
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M14 Sniper
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Range
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500 yards
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1000 yards
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1000 Yards
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700 yards
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Ammunition
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5.56mm
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.30-06
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7.62x51mm
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7.62x51mm
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Now through all these wars several things have remained in common among
snipers, lets analyze these facts:
A sniper acts independently from standard infantry, not as a part of a
unit but in a one or two man team.
This is possible in paintball, most of the time in
scenario games, I am alone behind enemy lines trying to accomplish a mission.
But you do very little if any tactical good for your team waiting in one spot
for an entire game, hoping a target of high-value (such as the opposing
general) walks by.
A sniper does not act at random, he selects targets of high value and
eliminates them.
Targets of High Value in a military sense are:
- Officers:
- Generals
- Field Grade officers
- Company Grade officers
- Forward Observers
- Crew Served Weaponry:
- Heavy Machine Guns
- Artillery Batteries
- Mortar Crews
- Non Commissioned Officers
- Radiomen
Targets of High
Value in Paintball:
- Generals
- Tank Crewman (if there are
tanks)
- Um…. Yeah… that’s all I can
think of...
The problem with selecting high value targets in a
scenario paintball game is, there are very few. The vast majority of players
play independently, not under any command and they do what they want. What
officers and team captains there are do not look any different than any other
players.
The Sniper fires at targets from
beyond the range of return fire by the standard infantry weapons, or from
distances that were beyond the training of the normal infantryman.
As you can see from the diagrams of the Sniper Rifles of
the Period in comparison to the standard issue infantry weapons, the sniper
rifle always has a great deal more range than infantry weapons, and the sniper
has been trained to an accuracy standard that is beyond that of standard
infantry training.
This is where sniping in paintball fails. All paintball
markers except those equipped with the Flatline or Apex systems fire the same
distance, around 25 yards or 75 feet. The Flatline will reach ranges of up to
150 ft, but because the ball loses velocity at the same rate as a normal
paintball, the chances of getting a break, or a single accurate shot at those
ranges are close to zero.
The sniper uses a single accurate
shot to take his targets down.
The ammunition expended to kill ratio of a sniper in Vietnam was 1.7
rounds per kill. The average infantryman expended 50,000 rounds per confirmed
kill.
It is possible to take targets down with a single shot
in paintball. However it is near impossible to eliminate a target with a single
shot from beyond the effective range of return fire by the enemy.
A sniper uses camouflage and
concealment to hide himself from his enemies to eliminate his targets.
No qualms with this, it can be done. Most every scenario
paintball player does it. Using camouflage doe not make you sniper.
Now as you can see there are
several places where sniping fails in paintball. Now look at the definition of
a Sharpshooter:
“A sharpshooter… is a rifleman
(proficient or otherwise) who acts in an opportunist manner, taking shots at
the enemy when the chance arises”
From SNIPER by Adrian
Gilbert
Ok, this looks a little more
feasible in the game of paintball than the sniper definition doesn’t it?
For paintball purposes we can
strike rifleman, because there are no rifles in paintball.
“who acts in an opportunist manner,
taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”
This sounds feasible. The
definition of a sniper that Spec Ops puts forth is one of an “ambush player”
that fires from concealment, using camouflage. The problem with the Spec Ops
definition of a sniper is that it perfectly describes the definition of a
sharpshooter in a military sense.
So we will set forth the definition
of a Sharpshooter in paintball. This is what most of you would call a Sniper in
paintball.
A sharpshooter takes shots from
concealment, shoots at targets as the opportunity arises, and uses a marker
that has the same range as everyone else’s. This is not a Sniper. This is a
sharpshooter. You will never be a sniper in paintball simple ballistics prevent
this from ever happening.
The fact of the matter is if you
think you are a sniper in paintball, your terminology is wrong. The definition
of a sharpshooter, fits paintball a lot closer that the definition of a sniper.
But for those of you who insist that you are still snipers, look at an analogy:
You work for a living. Your job is to go to people’s houses and businesses, to
pick up their trash and take it to the dump. You drive a Garbage Truck. What
would you be called, a Garbage Man, or a Professional Truck Driver?
You would be called a Garbage Man,
would you not? As much as you would prefer to be called a Professional Truck
Driver, everyone would call you a Garbage Man because it fits what you are
doing better than the title Professional Truck Driver does.
The
definition of Sharpshooter, or a Designated Marksman fits what you are doing in
paintball a whole lot better than Sniper does. Stop fooling yourself.
References:
SNIPER-
Adrian Gilbert
One
Shot-One Kill- Charles W. Sasser and Craig Roberts
Marine
Sniper- Charles Henderson
Authors
Note: In my haste of writing this, I may have gotten some minor facts mixed up,
or in the wrong place. Please contact me with the correct info if you
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Posted By: dark assassin
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 9:07am
touche snake.....touche
------------- It's like a new pair o underwear, at first it's constrictive, but then it becomes a part of you."
-Garth
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Posted By: Jmann4567
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 12:31pm
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you just made a big mistake bringing up "snipers".
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Posted By: choopie911
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 12:34pm
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No, you dont want to be a sniper...walking up to the field and saying "Hay guys, I'm a sniper" will ensure that you'll have people laughing in your face.
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Posted By: Jmann4567
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 12:36pm
It will also ensure any argument of being a sniper getting completely crushed on this forum. I hope you read Snake's post.
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Posted By: You Wont See Me
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 3:22pm
Anyone else feel the slight burning sensation in here...??
Oh well... Its not working unless it burns.
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Posted By: Cammo
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 5:28pm
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snake must have that page bookmarked cuse he sent me that exact same thing when i ask that question... boy did i learn the hard way...
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Posted By: Snake6
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 5:37pm
Posted By: sinisterNorth
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 5:57pm
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You want to be a sniper...
...I want to be God.
Moral of the story...it's not going to happen.
------------- Pumpker'd; (V.) When a pump player runs up and shoots you at point blank range because you thought 20bps made you good.
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Posted By: casper8x
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 6:43pm
Snake layed it out pretty darn well.
I think on the paintball field you can be "like" a sniper but NOT in a range of target sense but using extreme stealthy-ness. Instead of trying to make your marker superior in range which can be done by any other player. Go out in the woods and practice moving silently, practice your cover and concealment tactics etc.
Being a sniper isn't just about how far you can shoot.
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Posted By: Snake6
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 6:49pm
...
You say that I lay it out pretty well, then you go on to contridict my points.
/me is confused.
You either think you are a Sniper or you don't think you are a sniper. There is no in between.
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Posted By: casper8x
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 7:00pm
Snake6 wrote:
...
You say that I lay it out pretty well, then you go on to contridict my points.
/me is confused.
You either think you are a Sniper or you don't think you are a sniper. There is no in between.
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I meant you can still employ tactics used by true snipers although you will never actually fufill the role as a sniper.
A vast majority of sniper training doesn't even involve firing your weapon. I have been involved in a sniper training exercise where eight teams of Marine Scout-Snipers were to move from point A to point B while my battalion were ordered to try and spot them and mark their location. If we were successfull in locating them they failed.
The tactics those real snipers were using could easily be employed in a large scenario game or just general woodsball.
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Posted By: Snake6
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 7:03pm
Ok, I didn't understand waht you were saying. I''ll agree with you on that one. But there is really no need to encourage the, and make him think it is possible to be a sniper.
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Posted By: casper8x
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 7:14pm
Snake6 wrote:
But there is really no need to encourage the, and make him think it is possible to be a sniper.
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More for the slaughter.
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Posted By: Bruce A. Frank
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 7:52pm
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RED_B@ng wrote:
i want to be a sniper but im not sure what barrel to get for my A-5 im thinking a flatline but then u cant drop balls on people. i was also looking at an apex does anyone know if its any good? |
LOL, particularly at Hybrid-Sniper's animation. You are going to get a bunch of flames and Snake6 has all ready pulled out the "encyclopedia" of sniper-ism. Let me toss in a couple of cents worth.
Snipers existed before firearms ever came into existence. Snipers were armed with long bows and later cross bows. Distances were on par with, in the beginning, today's paintball markers. A well hidden marksman could take out strategic personnel and strike terror in the hearts of supporting troops who could not respond to virtually undetectable assailants.
A well hidden paintball marksmen can take out an individual and remain undetectable even when he is less than 200 ft away. On a busy field it is, at best, difficult to determine from which direction a single shot originated. If the marksman remains still and holds his fire while waiting for a next target of opportunity, it is not difficult to keep a rather large group pinned down. I have done it on several occasions.
I play a lot of night speedball under the lights. There are places on the field and in shadows cast by bunkers where the lighting provides pockets of perfect cover. Even though my barrels are not quiet, when I have made it to one of those spots undetected I can on occasion take out 4 or 5 people in a game. Certainly at some point I become one of the few remaining players and I am eventually detected. But, my object is to remain hiden, not just ducking and posting shots.
At times I have remained so well hidden, even though I am firing, that an opponent will run into my hiding place expecting to use it as cover to assault my team. So the so-called classical definition of a sniper has clearly evolved since the evolution of the firearm. When one can remain undetected while eliminating the opponent, when one can hide and continue to fire without giving one's position away, I'd classify that as a sniper.
Look at SWAT teams who post shooters literally across the street from the position of the perp...at paintball distances. Now some might strictly call such personnel as sharpshooters, but I see little difference. And even though their rifles are loud, in the noise reflective environment it is sometimes impossible to tell from where the shot came.
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Posted By: Gpacker4686
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 8:34pm
hey i was a sniper yesterday, I was in a bunker (so i was concealed). then from a hole i was looking at i saw where my target was at. I then waited until his head came in sight. I popped up took one shot (it got him in the head) then i went back down.
well ok maybe i wasn't a sniper b/c of distance and people knew where i was but i did get the one shot one kill. lol
*zips up flame suit*
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Posted By: Snake6
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 9:12pm
Bruce,
"The Snipe is a small gamme bird similar to a woodcock. In India, during the late eighteenth century, British Army officers popularized the hunting of the Snipe, its small size and agility making it a difficult adn rewarding target. The term 'Sniper' came to describe a skillful hunter, well versed in the arts of stalking, and a first rate shot."
SNIPER - Adrian Gilbert
This is the original meaning of the word Sniper.
The first instance of the term sniper being used in a military sense is in a letter from India in 1773. "The Soldiers...put thier hats on the parapet for the enemy to shoot at, and humorously called it sniping"
Snipers were not around before the invention of firearms, sorry Bruce.
As for the SWAT anology. SWAT Snipers are trained and armed as Military Snipers are. The have the ABILITY to hit tarets up to 1000 yards away. That is what counts. Technically a shot made with a sniper rifle from across the street is not a sniper kill, just as a shot made in QCB in the military with a sniper rifle is not a sniper kill. Just because someone is shot with a Sniper Rifle, it is not a Sniper Kill. I could shoot you in the head from point blank range with a M40A3, with the barrel touching your forehead. Would that make me a sniper? Would that count as a Sniper Kill? No it wouldn't.
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Posted By: Ilford Rule
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 10:06pm
...
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Posted By: UV Halo
Date Posted: 06 June 2006 at 12:19am
Snake6, you brought the most logical and thorough reasoning to defend
the concept of how there are no snipers in paintball. Bravo! 
However, you are extensively basing your reasoning on how formal
military establishments train, equip, and deploy Snipers. Now,
there is no doubt in my mind that we will not call one of our own
personnel (DoD) a "sniper" unless that person has been formally
trained, and equipped.
You're leaving out half the story though. You don't seem to
be aware of how these same establishments refer to the opfor's
"snipers". Keep it in mind, that Vassilij Grigoryevich Zaitsev
was never formally trained (or even equipped) as a sniper before the
germans considered him a sniper. He earned the title through his
precision fire, tactics and, camouflage. As a matter of fact,
"snipers" were non-existant in the Russian army prior to him starting
to train him.
When it comes to threat analysis, military establishments will
refer to opfor personnel who use extensive camouflage, concealment, and
fire at exposed troops without readily revealing their location as
"Snipers". They refer to single shot, incoming fire (of an
unknown origin) as "Sniper Fire". Even though they know
absolutely nothing about the opfor.
The reason they do this is because it's the most simple way to explain
the threat, and what is happening. What matters more, your
opponent's accomplishments, or his training, and equipment?
So, how do they (formal military establishments) differentiate between
the militarily trained snipers, and other snipers? If they happen
to get that information about an opfor individual (or if speaking about
the opfor in general), they will refer to them as being "Trained
Snipers", and then they will discuss the training, how many of them
there are, and their typical equipment, so that decision-makers have an
idea of what to expect (all those feats your describe). That's
it. Pure and simple. More often than not, opfor snipers are
equipped with assault rifles, and occasionally, a weapon with optics.
I also believe that you dropped the military's classification of
Marksman. A marksman is not trained extensively in camouflage and
concealment, and further to the point, they do not use it
extensively. A marksman is a member of a deploying unit (squad,
platoon, what have you), that fires and manuevers with said
unit. A marksman never deploys with a "spotter", and
further, never alone. Before he gets this designation, he usually
displays an aptitude for precision fire.
Now, I believe there are paintball snipers and paintball
marksmen. The difference is primarily in how they manuever and
fire.
A paintball sniper typically deploys in a one, or at most two-man
group- because the less people you have with you, the more of a chance
you'll have in slipping through a gap in the enemy line (or they will
pass by you). He moves more slowly (or not at all), as movement
is the enemy of great camouflage. He relies on his extensive
camouflage (sorry, camouflage patterns don't cut it, you need to have
some 3D camouflage, i.e. ghillie, as it is more effective than the
standard print stuff in breaking up your outline. This
camouflage is necessary to make up for his reduced mobility, and never
seeks a head-on fight. An all out shooting is not a success, it's
a failure, even if you eliminate your opponent. Why? You've just
blown your cover. Other people in earshot will know 'something'
is going on in that area. The benefit if this is done right? The
enemy slows as they cannot locate the shooter. If they decide to
move on, they may be stalked, and picked off one at a time.
A marksmen doesn't care if somebody locates him, he's supporting a team
with precision fire- He actually aims before he shoots, while the rest
of the team shoots, and then walks their fire. Now, he's not a
single shot kind of player but, he's not practicing "Accuracy through
Volume" either. If any of you are wondering what I mean by that,
I mean, if you are firing more than three shots before your first shot
hits, that's 'accuracy by volume'. The benefit of this
player: A valuable member of a team, who seeks and takes shots of
opportunity.
Now, here's the simplest contrast. What happens if you have a
team of all of either of those types. Well, the marksmen team
would move more quickly, and work together through the course of the
fight. A team full of snipers would all spread out, and try to
take out individuals from concealed positions.
Personally, I don't know why people just can't help somebody be a
"paintball sniper" with some good information. For example, you
could give him pointers on camouflage, or how to practice shooting,
what type of equipment will allow for one repeatable one-shot
eliminations (sorry your stock-stingray isn't going to cut it), and
maybe even the concept of paint-matching. All the while, keeping
it realistic in telling him there is no long-range, high accuracy
solution in paintball, and to point out to him, the marketing hype
("This 20" barrel is the most accurate, has the longest range, and will
completely silence your marker").
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Freak SS W/Stif-Tip * Flatline * Armson Stealth
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Posted By: Bruce A. Frank
Date Posted: 06 June 2006 at 3:04am
|
Interestin that the term "sniper" is a relative modern term. Whereas the style of combatant isn't.
Snipe weren't shot at great distances relative to todays gunning and the use of the term evolved to encompass well hidden long range shooters.
A well hidden shooter (undetectable) taking targets near the limits of his weapon's range would certainly be able to collect his brace of snipe.
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Posted By: Snake6
Date Posted: 06 June 2006 at 6:40am
UV Halo, I have a rebuttal for you, but I am off to school. So I will post it up this afternoon. I have to have a little time to think about this one. For once someone on the Pro-Sniper side has a half decent argument.
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Posted By: Bruce A. Frank
Date Posted: 06 June 2006 at 7:00am
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UV,
Well stated!
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Posted By: Cammo
Date Posted: 06 June 2006 at 9:28am
wow UV where were u when i was getting taught about how not to say anything remotly close to the word sniper jusk kidding but really nicely put
------------- Tippmann A-5
Palmer Male
Vertical Adapter
D.O.P. Drop Forward
Lapco Big Shot 14"
No Trigger Spring
E-grip
|
Posted By: Jstu202
Date Posted: 06 June 2006 at 5:19pm
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That was very imppressive UV, you have Snake on his toes. Both were very thorough arguments though. I wish I had the brains to write stuff out like that.. My paintball logic is.. I shoot these little round things at other ppl who are shooting them back at me.. and they make me all colorful when they break.
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Posted By: UV Halo
Date Posted: 06 June 2006 at 6:38pm
Thanks all for the compliments.
I thoroughly appreciate anyone in this thread who has not degenerated
into logic such as "They Do/Don't Exist, Shut up" Or "Oh no not
again". In my opinion, this is not a debate to be won or
lost. This is to present relevant information so that each of us
can make up our own minds on the issue. I would just like people
to be able to ask simple questions that are related without
narrow-minded individuals piping up to supress the question.
I'm 33 yrs old and I can remember a time when it was just understood
that there were those who considered themselves 'paintball snipers',
while some of them were, and some of them obviously were not.
But, it seems that within the last five years, or maybe around the same
time as paintball became more spectator friendly (hyperball, etc), that
people became very polarized on the issue.
There was one other point, I wanted to add to this, even in military
definitions snipers do not just engage "high value targets", nor do
they always practice shots at extreme range. A sniper (referring
to formal, militarily trained personnel) is often deployed defensively
to harrass and disrupt the opfor. Now, in this scenario, he
infiltrates their territory, or allows them to move around
himself. When he fires, he takes out leadership if it presents
itself to him but, his mission is to slow the advance of the
enemy. Therefore, he shoots at whatever target presents itself,
and this fire slows the advancing forces, and demoralizes them.
Now the demoralizing bit can be subjective but, not many advancing
forces will continue to move forward without dealing with the sniper
first. That is tangible, and that is the point.
------------- M98C- W/QwkStrpCut
Comp Air & Palmer Fatty Stab
Gas-Thru Stock
Lapco Sight Rail W/ADCO 30MM EDOT
Qloader W/ CMS
Freak SS W/Stif-Tip * Flatline * Armson Stealth
|
Posted By: Snake6
Date Posted: 06 June 2006 at 6:53pm
UV Halo wrote:
Snake6, you brought the most logical and thorough reasoning
to defend the concept of how there are no snipers in paintball. Bravo! 
However, you are extensively basing your reasoning on how formal
military establishments train, equip, and deploy Snipers. Now, there is
no doubt in my mind that we will not call one of our own personnel (DoD) a
"sniper" unless that person has been formally trained, and equipped.
You're leaving out half the story though. You don't seem to be
aware of how these same establishments refer to the opfor's
"snipers". Keep it in mind, that Vassilij Grigoryevich Zaitsev
was never formally trained (or even equipped) as a sniper before the germans
considered him a sniper. He earned the title through his precision fire,
tactics and, camouflage. As a matter of fact, "snipers" were
non-existant in the Russian army prior to him starting to train him.
I did purposefully leave those parts
out. The reason being that the vast majority of this forum are from the United
States, or Canada. It is easiest to relate to an example that is from your own
history, so you know the majority of the background to it. Also if I were to go
and pull Sniper stories from every major conflict in history I would have a 100
page post instead of a 4 page post. I
had to cut something out, and it happened to be other countries sniper
programs. I would also like to point out that the US during WW1 & WW2 chose
their snipers about the same way as the Soviets did. “Oh, you’re a good shot?
Here take this here Sniper Rifle and go shoot people.” It has been proven that
this is not a very effective method of training snipers, which is why that method is not used anymore.
There were thousands of Soviet Snipers in WW2, and only a small percentage of
those were actually effective.
As for Zaitsev story, he WAS equipped
with a Mosin Rifle with Optics. Also you have to take everything that is said
about Zaitsev with a grain of salt, remember that he was the Soviets number one
propaganda tool at Stalingrad. It has never been proven that the Germans sent their
sniper school commander to kill Zaitsev, or that Zaitsev actually killed him. The sources that
make such statements are mainly Soviet Propaganda. There are no German sources
to back up this claim.
When it comes to threat analysis, military
establishments will refer to opfor personnel who use extensive camouflage,
concealment, and fire at exposed troops without readily revealing their
location as "Snipers". They refer to single shot, incoming fire
(of an unknown origin) as "Sniper Fire". Even though they know
absolutely nothing about the opfor.
The reason they do this is because it's the most simple way to explain the
threat, and what is happening. What matters more, your opponent's
accomplishments, or his training, and equipment?
I will agree with you here. When I
am playing paintball, and a single shot comes out of nowhere the standard call
is “sniper”. It is not because there is actually a sniper, it is because it is
an easy way to tell people to get down.
So, how do they (formal military establishments) differentiate between the
militarily trained snipers, and other snipers? If they happen to get that
information about an opfor individual (or if speaking about the opfor in
general), they will refer to them as being "Trained Snipers", and
then they will discuss the training, how many of them there are, and their
typical equipment, so that decision-makers have an idea of what to expect (all
those feats your describe). That's it. Pure and simple. More
often than not, opfor snipers are equipped with assault rifles, and
occasionally, a weapon with optics.
What type of military experience do
you have? Just wondering, because I have never heard any military unit use the
term “trained sniper” before in reference to opfor snipers. You are either a
sniper or you are not, one or the other. To be considered a Sniper you still
must be able to use basic sniper skills, otherwise you are one of two things, a
dead sniper, or a worthless waste of manpower.
I also believe that you dropped the military's
classification of Marksman. A marksman is not trained extensively in
camouflage and concealment, and further to the point, they do not use it
extensively. A marksman is a member of a deploying unit (squad, platoon,
what have you), that fires and manuevers with said unit. A
marksman never deploys with a "spotter", and further, never alone.
Before he gets this designation, he usually displays an aptitude for precision
fire.
I am sorry if I confused you,
sometimes my rants can be that way. I never said that a marksman would use
extra camouflage, or that he employed a spotter.
What I was trying to say was that it is physically possible to be a marksman in
paintball, and it is an effective tactic on the paintball field. Unlike being a
“paintball sniper.”
Now, I believe there are paintball snipers and paintball marksmen. The
difference is primarily in how they manuever and fire.
A paintball sniper typically deploys in a one, or at most two-man group-
because the less people you have with you, the more of a chance you'll have in
slipping through a gap in the enemy line (or they will pass by you). He
moves more slowly (or not at all), as movement is the enemy of great
camouflage. He relies on his extensive camouflage (sorry, camouflage
patterns don't cut it, you need to have some 3D camouflage, i.e. ghillie, as it
is more effective than the standard print stuff in breaking up your outline.
This camouflage is necessary to make up for his reduced mobility, and
never seeks a head-on fight. An all out shooting is not a success, it's a
failure, even if you eliminate your opponent. Why? You've just blown your
cover. Other people in earshot will know 'something' is going on in that
area. The benefit if this is done right? The enemy slows as they cannot
locate the shooter. If they decide to move on, they may be stalked, and
picked off one at a time.
You have completely missed my point.
I live near Richmond Virginia and have visited USMC Base Quantico quite a few
times. On two of my visits I got to watch a Sniper School class in action, and
talk with a few of the instructors. One of the questions I asked each of the
Sniper School Instructors., was “what are the basic abilities needed to be an
effective sniper?” Each instructor replied with about the same thing. 1. An effective Sniper uses camouflage to effectively
hide his position from the enemy. 2. An effective Sniper is an Expert Rifleman.
3. An effective Sniper engages targets from beyond the effective range of
return fire. 4. An effective sniper inserts to the operations area without
being detected. 5. An effective Sniper has the ability to egress the operations
area without being detected. I then asked the Instructors, “so what if the
sniper is carrying a M16, instead of a sniper rifle? Would he still be used as
a sniper if he had the same range as everyone else?” To a man, the Instructors
said “no”. Therefore I return to my
garbage truck Analogy.
A marksmen doesn't care if somebody locates him, he's supporting a team with
precision fire- He actually aims before he shoots, while the rest of the team
shoots, and then walks their fire. Now, he's not a single shot kind of
player but, he's not practicing "Accuracy through Volume"
either. If any of you are wondering what I mean by that, I mean, if you
are firing more than three shots before your first shot hits, that's 'accuracy
by volume'. The benefit of this player: A valuable member of a
team, who seeks and takes shots of opportunity.
No argument here.
Now, here's the simplest contrast. What happens if you have a team of all
of either of those types. Well, the marksmen team would move more
quickly, and work together through the course of the fight. A team full
of snipers would all spread out, and try to take out individuals from concealed
positions.
If your team consists of a single
type of personnel, it will not be a very effective team. You need to have
diversity in the abilities of your team members in order to succeed.
Personally, I don't know why people just can't help somebody be a
"paintball sniper" with some good information. For example, you
could give him pointers on camouflage, or how to practice shooting, what type
of equipment will allow for one repeatable one-shot eliminations (sorry your
stock-stingray isn't going to cut it), and maybe even the concept of
paint-matching. All the while, keeping it realistic in telling him there
is no long-range, high accuracy solution in paintball, and to point out to him,
the marketing hype ("This 20" barrel is the most accurate, has the
longest range, and will completely silence your marker").
You can’t help people be something that
it is physically impossible to be.
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-------------
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Posted By: ridesnowbrdr
Date Posted: 06 June 2006 at 7:44pm
|
Gpacker4686 wrote:
hey i was a sniper yesterday, I was in a bunker (so i was concealed). then from a hole i was looking at i saw where my target was at. I then waited until his head came in sight. I popped up took one shot (it got him in the head) then i went back down.
well ok maybe i wasn't a sniper b/c of distance and people knew where i was but i did get the one shot one kill. lol
*zips up flame suit* |
thats not being a sniper, thats being a camper
-------------
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Posted By: UV Halo
Date Posted: 06 June 2006 at 8:36pm
Snake6 wrote:
UV Halo wrote:
Snake6, you brought the most logical and thorough reasoning
to defend the concept of how there are no snipers in paintball. Bravo! 
However, you are extensively basing your reasoning on how formal
military establishments train, equip, and deploy Snipers. Now, there is
no doubt in my mind that we will not call one of our own personnel (DoD) a
"sniper" unless that person has been formally trained, and equipped.
You're leaving out half the story though. You don't seem to be
aware of how these same establishments refer to the opfor's
"snipers". Keep it in mind, that Vassilij Grigoryevich Zaitsev
was never formally trained (or even equipped) as a sniper before the germans
considered him a sniper. He earned the title through his precision fire,
tactics and, camouflage. As a matter of fact, "snipers" were
non-existant in the Russian army prior to him starting to train him.
I did purposefully leave those parts
out. The reason being that the vast majority of this forum are from the United
States, or Canada. It is easiest to relate to an example that is from your own
history, so you know the majority of the background to it. Also if I were to go
and pull Sniper stories from every major conflict in history I would have a 100
page post instead of a 4 page post. I
had to cut something out, and it happened to be other countries sniper
programs. I would also like to point out that the US during WW1 & WW2 chose
their snipers about the same way as the Soviets did. “Oh, you’re a good shot?
Here take this here Sniper Rifle and go shoot people.” It has been proven that
this is not a very effective method of training snipers, which is why that method is not used anymore.
There were thousands of Soviet Snipers in WW2, and only a small percentage of
those were actually effective.
As for Zaitsev story, he WAS equipped
with a Mosin Rifle with Optics. Also you have to take everything that is said
about Zaitsev with a grain of salt, remember that he was the Soviets number one
propaganda tool at Stalingrad. It has never been proven that the Germans sent their
sniper school commander to kill Zaitsev, or that Zaitsev actually killed him. The sources that
make such statements are mainly Soviet Propaganda. There are no German sources
to back up this claim.
I agree about the
diversity in historical accounts on that individual. However, the
point is, that it wasn't his training, nor even his equipment, it was
his actions that defined him, and it wasn't all heroic shots on the
enemy's leadership.
When it comes to threat analysis, military
establishments will refer to opfor personnel who use extensive camouflage,
concealment, and fire at exposed troops without readily revealing their
location as "Snipers". They refer to single shot, incoming fire
(of an unknown origin) as "Sniper Fire". Even though they know
absolutely nothing about the opfor.
The reason they do this is because it's the most simple way to explain the
threat, and what is happening. What matters more, your opponent's
accomplishments, or his training, and equipment?
I will agree with you here. When I
am playing paintball, and a single shot comes out of nowhere the standard call
is “sniper”. It is not because there is actually a sniper, it is because it is
an easy way to tell people to get down.
Now, think about
what would happen if the rest of your team got into a debate with you
at that point about how "There are no snipers in paintball"
The point is to convey an idea. When somebody says that they want
to be a sniper, I would say that nobody close to voting age, with a
serious interest in paintball is going to expect that they will obtain
an unheard of accuracy at range, and that they will be able to move in
terms of inches until they get within their ridiculous range of and
pick off the opfor. A ten year old, maybe.
So, how do they (formal military establishments) differentiate between the
militarily trained snipers, and other snipers? If they happen to get that
information about an opfor individual (or if speaking about the opfor in
general), they will refer to them as being "Trained Snipers", and
then they will discuss the training, how many of them there are, and their
typical equipment, so that decision-makers have an idea of what to expect (all
those feats your describe). That's it. Pure and simple. More
often than not, opfor snipers are equipped with assault rifles, and
occasionally, a weapon with optics.
What type of military experience do
you have? Just wondering, because I have never heard any military unit use the
term “trained sniper” before in reference to opfor snipers. You are either a
sniper or you are not, one or the other. To be considered a Sniper you still
must be able to use basic sniper skills, otherwise you are one of two things, a
dead sniper, or a worthless waste of manpower.
I'm not one to brag but to simply answer your question, I spent 12
years in the navy. I know you're
getting ready to ship off so, feel free to ask me any questions you
might have about my experiences over PM.
I also believe that you dropped the military's
classification of Marksman. A marksman is not trained extensively in
camouflage and concealment, and further to the point, they do not use it
extensively. A marksman is a member of a deploying unit (squad, platoon,
what have you), that fires and manuevers with said unit. A
marksman never deploys with a "spotter", and further, never alone.
Before he gets this designation, he usually displays an aptitude for precision
fire.
I am sorry if I confused you,
sometimes my rants can be that way. I never said that a marksman would use
extra camouflage, or that he employed a spotter.
What I was trying to say was that it is physically possible to be a marksman in
paintball, and it is an effective tactic on the paintball field. Unlike being a
“paintball sniper.”
Now, I believe it
is physically possible, and effective to be a paintball sniper, with
some caveats. Defensively (in other words, firing at and
eliminating troops without revealing your position, can and will slow
the opfor down. This buys the rest of your team time to
manuever, set an ambush, etc. Offensively, It's not
commonly possible in your average 15-20min game. To outflank your
opponents, since you're not trying to engage them head on, you gotta
move fast. During this period your camouflage is much less
effective and the opfor has a good chance of realizing your there.
Now, I believe there are paintball snipers and paintball marksmen. The
difference is primarily in how they manuever and fire.
A paintball sniper typically deploys in a one, or at most two-man group-
because the less people you have with you, the more of a chance you'll have in
slipping through a gap in the enemy line (or they will pass by you). He
moves more slowly (or not at all), as movement is the enemy of great
camouflage. He relies on his extensive camouflage (sorry, camouflage
patterns don't cut it, you need to have some 3D camouflage, i.e. ghillie, as it
is more effective than the standard print stuff in breaking up your outline.
This camouflage is necessary to make up for his reduced mobility, and
never seeks a head-on fight. An all out shooting is not a success, it's a
failure, even if you eliminate your opponent. Why? You've just blown your
cover. Other people in earshot will know 'something' is going on in that
area. The benefit if this is done right? The enemy slows as they cannot
locate the shooter. If they decide to move on, they may be stalked, and
picked off one at a time.
You have completely missed my point.
I live near Richmond Virginia and have visited USMC Base Quantico quite a few
times. On two of my visits I got to watch a Sniper School class in action, and
talk with a few of the instructors. One of the questions I asked each of the
Sniper School Instructors., was “what are the basic abilities needed to be an
effective sniper?” Each instructor replied with about the same thing. 1. An effective Sniper uses camouflage to effectively
hide his position from the enemy. 2. An effective Sniper is an Expert Rifleman.
3. An effective Sniper engages targets from beyond the effective range of
return fire. 4. An effective sniper inserts to the operations area without
being detected. 5. An effective Sniper has the ability to egress the operations
area without being detected. I then asked the Instructors, “so what if the
sniper is carrying a M16, instead of a sniper rifle? Would he still be used as
a sniper if he had the same range as everyone else?” To a man, the Instructors
said “no”. Therefore I return to my
garbage truck Analogy.
Again, this was an
opinion of what we would call our own forces, or even what makes a
"good sniper". Take a look at what is happening in Afghanistan,
and Iraq. It's not just the press that is calling these
insurgents that wound or kill our troops with single shots.
That's how the military is reporting them. Why? Because
more often than not, even if we kill the indivdual, we will not have
any clue about how he was trained. We consider him on the merits
of his actions. FYI, I'm not glorifying these folks. I personally
feel great satisfaction in knowing that when they mess up, the get
heavy weaponry in return.
A marksmen doesn't care if somebody locates him, he's supporting a team with
precision fire- He actually aims before he shoots, while the rest of the team
shoots, and then walks their fire. Now, he's not a single shot kind of
player but, he's not practicing "Accuracy through Volume"
either. If any of you are wondering what I mean by that, I mean, if you
are firing more than three shots before your first shot hits, that's 'accuracy
by volume'. The benefit of this player: A valuable member of a
team, who seeks and takes shots of opportunity.
No argument here.
Now, here's the simplest contrast. What happens if you have a team of all
of either of those types. Well, the marksmen team would move more
quickly, and work together through the course of the fight. A team full
of snipers would all spread out, and try to take out individuals from concealed
positions.
If your team consists of a single
type of personnel, it will not be a very effective team. You need to have
diversity in the abilities of your team members in order to succeed.
I thoroughly agree however, I'm sure you can see the differences in how they would 'fight'.
Personally, I don't know why people just can't help somebody be a
"paintball sniper" with some good information. For example, you
could give him pointers on camouflage, or how to practice shooting, what type
of equipment will allow for one repeatable one-shot eliminations (sorry your
stock-stingray isn't going to cut it), and maybe even the concept of
paint-matching. All the while, keeping it realistic in telling him there
is no long-range, high accuracy solution in paintball, and to point out to him,
the marketing hype ("This 20" barrel is the most accurate, has the
longest range, and will completely silence your marker").
You can’t help people be something that
it is physically impossible to be.
An actual sniper, no,
it's not physically possible. But, yet we use other military
terms with no regard to how the military classifies them. Here's
a couple equipment examples: "Paintball Grenades". They don't
explode, and they don't even shoot their paint anywhere close to the
kill radius of an actual grenade (much less evenly) but is anyone
running around saying "There is no such thing as paintball grenades,
their not physically possible or effective". Or, how about
"paintball gun"? "Paintball Tank"? "Paintball Mine"?
Okay so maybe some of those hardcore folks that are trying to distance
themselves from anything war, or militarily-related to paintball.
Or, how about the term "Paintball Medic". Yet again, nobody is
running around saying, "There are no such things as 'paintball medics',
these guys aren't trained, equipped or even perform as a
'medic'". See the hipocracy? (I'm not sayng you're
hipocritical, it's a general mindset of many paintball players).
|
|
------------- M98C- W/QwkStrpCut
Comp Air & Palmer Fatty Stab
Gas-Thru Stock
Lapco Sight Rail W/ADCO 30MM EDOT
Qloader W/ CMS
Freak SS W/Stif-Tip * Flatline * Armson Stealth
|
Posted By: Cammo
Date Posted: 06 June 2006 at 8:38pm
|
Wow both snake an UV have great points IM STARTING TO LOVE THIS THREAD, but i think part of what UV is trying to say is that of course not all of the tavtics used by real "snipers" will work in paintball (that would be imposible) but some of the tactics can be used.
1. An effective Sniper uses camouflage to effectively hide his position from the enemy.---this can be done in wodsball
2. An effective Sniper is an Expert Rifleman.--- this can be done to a point (if u are good with your gin, you can hold it steady, and can read distance and range well)
3. An effective Sniper engages targets from beyond the effective range of return fire. --- that cant be done in paintball we have established this.
4. An effective Sniper engages targets from beyond the effective range of return fire.--- stealth can easily be used in paintball.
5. An effective Sniper has the ability to egress the operations area without being detected.--- again stealth tactics
and the fact that the sniper instructor said "if the sniper is carrying an M-16 he is no longer a sniper" i think he may of been talking about the acuracy of an M-16 not the fact that it is a fast shooting gun that would translate to something like an egrip on a tippy of an ion.
so 4 out of the five sniper tactics could be put into play by paintballers.
---please tell me if i missed something on this debate and went way off somewhere in this post---
------------- Tippmann A-5
Palmer Male
Vertical Adapter
D.O.P. Drop Forward
Lapco Big Shot 14"
No Trigger Spring
E-grip
|
Posted By: UV Halo
Date Posted: 06 June 2006 at 10:54pm
Cammo,
Again, you're comparing paintball players to military standards. The
problem with this is that paintball is played on completely different
scales, in time, distance, equipment, training, tactics, etc.
Consider this: How often in a 15-20 minute game does a paintball sniper
worry about egressing undetected? In a scenario/big game yes, it
can, and does happen. But, who here spends most of their game
time in scenarios, or big games?
Compare it on the basis of tactical outcomes. Is a
one-shot elimination a big deal? In itself, not really. Now
if that one-shot elimination causes that group to slow in it's
advancement because they can't find you, then yes, that is a successful
paintball sniper engagement. The bonus would be if you should
happen to demoralize them to the point to where they decide to go some
other way. In scenario play, there are even more opportunities.
In my opinion, it's not just the stealthiness and being a good shot
that makes a 'paintball' sniper. Hell, I've used a ghillie (not a
burlap jute but rather, netting type), and crept around all
sneaky. Hehe, last time I played, in one game, I managed to not
fire a single shot because I was being too sneaky, as I flanked a group
that was continuously flanking another group. At one time or
another, I've done all those things that I believe a paintball sniper
should do. But, I'd never call myself a paintball sniper because
honestly, I'm not doing all those things, most of the time.
Kinda like you're not an airsmith just because you did some
airsmith-level work to your gun once. If you did it most of the
time, then yeah, you could call yourself a self-trained airsmith.
I'm no paintball sniper, I'm a paintball player, that sometimes uses
paintball sniper tactics, paintball marksman tactics, and sometimes I
even act as a team captain (as I come up with a strategy for, and guide
the walkon team I'm with).
------------- M98C- W/QwkStrpCut
Comp Air & Palmer Fatty Stab
Gas-Thru Stock
Lapco Sight Rail W/ADCO 30MM EDOT
Qloader W/ CMS
Freak SS W/Stif-Tip * Flatline * Armson Stealth
|
Posted By: Snake6
Date Posted: 06 June 2006 at 11:31pm
UV Halo,
After reading through your posts and mulling over it myself a little bit, honestly I cannot see a substancial difference between what you are calling "paintball sniper" tactics and an unsupported close ambush as tought in any Infantry School to a basic Rifleman. How is it that OS so eliquently puts it? "1 ea Standard Infantry".
You can't just change accepted definitions around to fit your needs. Whenever someone argues for a "paintball sniper" that is pretty much what you are doing. Remember that this is a Military Close Combat Simulation Game, therefore most military tactics and definitions transfer well. But just because you want to be called a sniper you cannot change a definition. That is like changing the definition of apples to include oranges. Or even better my garbage truck analogy:
You work for a living. Your job is
to go to people’s houses and businesses, to pick up their trash and take it to
the dump. You drive a Garbage Truck. What would you be called, a Garbage Man,
or a Professional Truck Driver?
You would be called a Garbage Man,
would you not? As much as you would prefer to be called a Professional Truck
Driver, everyone would call you a Garbage Man because it fits what you are
doing better than the title Professional Truck Driver does.
But I don't why I am ranting on... We are not going to change each others minds. So lets just Agree to Disagree.
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 07 June 2006 at 3:18pm
Ok, here we go. Historical reference, before the modern term sniper was coined, there was the role of "skirmisher", where a soldier armed with a standard rifle went out in front of the main battle line and engaged the enemy, disrupting his formations, and giving early warning to the main battle line. He was obligated to use trees and rocks as cover to avoid the mass return fires of formation infantry.
Soviet Style of warfare in WW2, was pure attrition, mass infantry attacks illregardless of casualties. "Snipers" were given scoped rifles if they showed any talent, being farmboys, hunters and such, as compared to the new soviet man of the cities, and was sent out for the same purpose as above, harrase and interdict German troops and formations. Disrupt planning and to hurt morale. Even incoming inaccurate rifle fire will create the same effect if retaliation is not easy.
Now for today, we have two choices as combat leaders. When we take a round from an unknown direction and or range, in order to get the proper battle drill reaction we can yell the command "Unknown rifleman, left, long/mid/short range, no visual" or "Sniper Left", which in a combat setting will get the faster and more understandable response. Not thast we are being engaged by a true sniper but the idea is there and battle drill is based on a tactical application not a dictionary definition or perception of a skill.
As for movement, a long time ago and far, far away we moved in two/three/four man teams dressed in camoflauged ERDL uniforms, using proper camoflauge and movement techniques for the terrain, and we were not snipers we were LRRP Teams, doing active recon, harrasement and interdiction fires, select point target fires, and generally keeping Nathaniel and Charlie wondering. We moved slow/fast whatever mission terrain requirement demanded, and allways began engagements at our advantage.
I later was issued a XM21 (scoped M14) and did the same as above, I only went to the "school" long after my return to the world.
In the realm of short ranged ground combat, a static unsupported rifleman, no matter how good, is not a combat multiplier, but a combat casuality. I learned this again a long time ago, far, far away, at paintball ranges, with real M16's and Ak's.
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Posted By: RED_B@ng
Date Posted: 07 June 2006 at 5:44pm
Fine let me rephrase i want to be stealthy with a gun that soot a far distance but the inly thing i dont like about the flatline is that u can drop balls on people
------------- warren motor sports all sponsors welcome
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Posted By: UV Halo
Date Posted: 07 June 2006 at 7:38pm
Snake6, I've never for one second, in over 15yrs of playing this game,
with nearly all of it spent in the woods, have I ever thought this game
is a "Military Close Combat Simulation Game". Sure it has some
similarities to such an environment but, it has just as many
differences, in time, space, equipment, tactics, etc. Even
Scenarios are not even remotely close.
As far as our differences go, I had that understanding from the beginning, I'm glad to share
this exchange of ideas in a civil manner. I fully agree to
disagree I'm dead serious here, this has been very good for me and many others on this board.
oldsoldier, good points. I almost forgot about LRRPs. But,
if you receive a single, incoming, accurate shot, from an unknown
origin (meaning you have only the direction it came from, at best), in
the mission debrief, it gets reported to the G2, or J2 as "Sniper"
activity. Every time. Even if you never locate the
individual that fired the shots.
Red_B@ng, What do you mean about a flatline dropping balls on people?
Stealthy with a range further than your
average paintball gun? Two issues. Stealthy involves
camouflage, and being able to move quietly, and knowing when not to
move. Being able to shoot without revealing your location is a
separate issue.
Long Range. Do you mean longer than a standard paintball gun's
range? Only flatline and apex help you there, and neither
of those are quiet by anyone's standard, with the flatline being the
worst. If you want to be more accurate at the far end of normal
paintball range, get a good paintball-barrel match, use good paint, and
get your chrono speed as consistant as possible (via polished internals
on a tippmann, an expansion chamber and/or a regulator). Then, Practice Practice Practice!
------------- M98C- W/QwkStrpCut
Comp Air & Palmer Fatty Stab
Gas-Thru Stock
Lapco Sight Rail W/ADCO 30MM EDOT
Qloader W/ CMS
Freak SS W/Stif-Tip * Flatline * Armson Stealth
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Posted By: MeanMan
Date Posted: 07 June 2006 at 8:06pm
i think "sniper" threads have the longest posts
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hybrid-sniper~"To be honest, if I see a player still using an Impulse I'm going to question their motives."
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Posted By: UV Halo
Date Posted: 07 June 2006 at 8:52pm
Yeah, they either rack up ton of insults and childish arguments ("there
are" "there are not", or stuff that contributes nothing to the
debate.
Or, they are thoughtful discussions with lots of relevant information on both sides of the debate.
------------- M98C- W/QwkStrpCut
Comp Air & Palmer Fatty Stab
Gas-Thru Stock
Lapco Sight Rail W/ADCO 30MM EDOT
Qloader W/ CMS
Freak SS W/Stif-Tip * Flatline * Armson Stealth
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Posted By: Cammo
Date Posted: 07 June 2006 at 9:09pm
ya but there ususally a childish argument  i like smillies
------------- Tippmann A-5
Palmer Male
Vertical Adapter
D.O.P. Drop Forward
Lapco Big Shot 14"
No Trigger Spring
E-grip
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Posted By: Jstu202
Date Posted: 07 June 2006 at 11:02pm
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A toast to UV and Snake, your arguments were very impressive and respectable.. just wanted to throw that out there again. This thread really gets you thinking.
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Posted By: Jmann4567
Date Posted: 07 June 2006 at 11:29pm
I agree this is the 1st "sniper" argument that hasn't just been childish. Both sides had respectable arguments and it was nice to read through this.
------------- 98c
Smart Parts Teardrop
Ricochet Rhino hopper
deadOn double trigger
Pen spring mod
Custom paintjob
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=6/16221294395.jpg&s=f5
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Posted By: Sc0uter
Date Posted: 07 June 2006 at 11:44pm
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I just love the fact that so much information is getting passed back and forth. This morning, I knew nothing about the contrasted difference between game and war. But, I am enjoying learning it all. Seems it would take some hardcore knowledge to dish out something respectable here. Maybe after my service, I will be able to spit out something too.
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Posted By: RED_B@ng
Date Posted: 08 June 2006 at 2:05am
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what i mean by droping balls is let me give u an example say some ones hiding i a ditch. u shoot the gun and it gets far enough to where it starts to drop if u angle ur gun right it will drop and nail them
------------- warren motor sports all sponsors welcome
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Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 08 June 2006 at 8:48am
Apex barrel then.
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Posted By: Cammo
Date Posted: 08 June 2006 at 8:54am
RED_B@ng wrote:
what i mean by droping balls is let me give u an example say some ones hiding i a ditch. u shoot the gun and it gets far enough to where it starts to drop if u angle ur gun right it will drop and nail them
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if you turn the flatline upside down it will do this
------------- Tippmann A-5
Palmer Male
Vertical Adapter
D.O.P. Drop Forward
Lapco Big Shot 14"
No Trigger Spring
E-grip
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Posted By: Snake6
Date Posted: 08 June 2006 at 8:59am
Ok, can we let this thread die now?
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Posted By: sleeperone
Date Posted: 15 June 2006 at 9:38pm
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I get a call on my secure line.
I am picked up, equipt and driven to the awaiting aircraft for a HaLo (High Altitude Low Opening) insertion, usually at night. I choose my forward Observation point and fall back location. I wait about six hours for the Field Ref to sound the horn. I wait for my target, reach out and touch him/her. Fall back to my secondary location . Wait for the days proceedings to end, call in my bird to the agreed upon extraction point and carve another notch on my Tapco folding stock on the ride home. I wake up the next morning and I'm 2.7 cents down from this same time two days ago. I could be dropped on your field some day and you might get blasted by that stray shot or you could chalk it up as a long ball but chances are quite good that it was.......... "The Ghost Sniper".
Did I mention my therapist thinks I'm delusional.
------------- Aim once.....
Shoot Often!!
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Posted By: Styro Folme
Date Posted: 15 June 2006 at 10:08pm
whether snipers exsist really depends on your definition of a sniper. i've been called a sniper before because i can shoot my phantom accurately. i however, do not particularly like the term sniper. i want people to tell other people "Shelby is a good shot" and not "Shelby is a good sniper". But then if you think about it, the guys in ghillie suits. They play a little bit differently then the guys in regular cammo. They don't need to shoot as much, becuase they stay conceiled better. i'm not saying they exist or don't exist... but i'm just stating my veiws on the subject... people in ghillie exist...
------------- X
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Posted By: UV Halo
Date Posted: 15 June 2006 at 11:41pm
Styro- True enough!
There are even plenty of folks who know how to use a ghillie, and
plenty who don't. A letter to APG was from a player complaining
about how they saw a dude running all over the place in a ghillie, and
when the players asked the ghillie dude why he was running around he
replied with "it gets more bounces"... 
I think about it in terms of how the majority of English language
dictionaries define a sniper. But, so many people think that if
you're a paintball sniper that you must fit the description of the
higher standard attributable to military personnel. However,
before you even get the basic english definition applied to you as a
label, you need to spend most of your game time doing it. Which
frankly, I think playing in only one particular style is unecessarily
restricting yourself.
------------- M98C- W/QwkStrpCut
Comp Air & Palmer Fatty Stab
Gas-Thru Stock
Lapco Sight Rail W/ADCO 30MM EDOT
Qloader W/ CMS
Freak SS W/Stif-Tip * Flatline * Armson Stealth
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Posted By: You Wont See Me
Date Posted: 15 June 2006 at 11:54pm
My homemade ghillie pwns j00 f00ls.
------------- A-5
E-Grip
JCS Dual Trigger
DOP X-CORE 8 stage x-chamber
Lapco Bigshot 14" Beadblasted
Optional setup:
R/T
Dead on Blade trigger
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Posted By: Styro Folme
Date Posted: 16 June 2006 at 3:14am
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UV Halo wrote:
Styro- True enough! There are even plenty of folks who know how to use a ghillie, and plenty who don't. A letter to APG was from a player complaining about how they saw a dude running all over the place in a ghillie, and when the players asked the ghillie dude why he was running around he replied with "it gets more bounces"... 
I think about it in terms of how the majority of English language dictionaries define a sniper. But, so many people think that if you're a paintball sniper that you must fit the description of the higher standard attributable to military personnel. However, before you even get the basic english definition applied to you as a label, you need to spend most of your game time doing it. Which frankly, I think playing in only one particular style is unecessarily restricting yourself.
| tru dat, but to tell you the truth, i don't understand why anyone would want to be a sniper, paintball or real life. You have to crawl around, sleep in weird places, don't bathe, pretend to be a bush, and only get to fire 1 bullet. i prefer the running, jumping, and "markers blazing" thrills. Even though i'm a stock class kind of guy, i still like to run and make rushes... but that doesn't mean i don't make ambushes either... i just don't stay in 1 spot if noone is shooting at me. ahwell, everyone has their coffee...
------------- X
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