Propane Semi-auto <--real idea
Printed From: Tippmann Paintball
Category: Tippmann Paintball
Forum Name: Paintball Ideas / News From Tippmann
Forum Description: Got a new idea or a way to improve something?
URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=158032
Printed Date: 17 July 2025 at 5:57pm
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Topic: Propane Semi-auto <--real idea
Posted By: Monk
Subject: Propane Semi-auto <--real idea
Date Posted: 30 July 2006 at 8:58pm
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So I got to deciding that I want to make a propane semi-auto. I went through a few ideas in my head and decided on an automag blow forward idea. http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=propgunwf8.gif">  Its electro with no sear. The board uses a solenoid valve to put the propane/air mix into the firing chamber after each shot. And will have a prime button for the first shot. The trigger fires and makes a spark, the propane ignites and pushes the bolt foward and then the gas is expelled which fires the ball. The spring returns the bolt the the starting position and the solenoid adds propane to the chamber once again. Timing will be involved to get the solenoid to activate after the bolt comes back, but after that you should be able to fire constantly. |
Replies:
Posted By: pattison
Date Posted: 30 July 2006 at 9:06pm
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this is the first coherent and logical c3 semi idea i have ever seen.
edit: but i think you really need a way to flush the chamber, dumping more mixture into the old spent gas won't work reliably ------------- Eat The Brisket |
Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 30 July 2006 at 9:11pm
Very true. I might be able to add some sort of QEV on the side of the chamber, when the bolt comes back it might push enough old gas out. I might have to make the bolt bigger in the back to push even more gas out. |
pattison wrote:Posted By: barn_user
Date Posted: 30 July 2006 at 11:35pm
| Your going to also need a way to engineer a reliable cooling system. With all that combustion the gun will start to heat up from the faster shooting. |
Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 31 July 2006 at 12:49am
Ill worry about that after I actually get it working. 
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Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 31 July 2006 at 1:27am
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Ok, I have a second reincarnation. http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=propgun2og9.jpg">  This one has an exaust "squeegy" that will follow the bolt while its one way flaps are open. Then as the bolt pushes the squeegy back the flaps close and push the exaust out the back. Im not real sure if the spring will have enough time to engage the squeegy and push it to the front of the chamber before the bolt pushes it back. And sadly I forget my physics lessons. If not, I successfully made a very compact C3. |
Posted By: pattison
Date Posted: 31 July 2006 at 1:56am
One bolt delay mechanism coming right up... 
Edit:Might take a sec to download, it is hosted on my computer in Germany. ------------- Eat The Brisket |
Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 31 July 2006 at 2:18am
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I see where you're going with that. Ill put my spin on it. http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=propgun2fw8.jpg">  I seriously feel very confindent that this idea will work. I think it would be possible to do this with an ebolt and an automag. |
Posted By: pattison
Date Posted: 31 July 2006 at 2:33am
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there is not really a need for the solenoid valve if you can copy the operation of the c3, where the plunger releases a shot of propane at the end of the --> stroke, and sucks in air for the correct mixture on the <-- stroke. just like the standard c3.
i would love to see a c3 chamber duck taped to an automag body, that would be the hottest marker ever. ------------- Eat The Brisket |
Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 31 July 2006 at 2:56am
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You got me thinking about the solenoid, and it would be abit more complicated than it needs to be. So I went back to the drawing boards. and this is what I got so far. When the bolt goes back, it will go alittle farther than needed, thus pushing in a valve to open the propane for a fraction of a second. Also note that none of these parts are to the scale of the others, so there is alot of imagination involved. http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=propgun3xr8.jpg">  Bam, it took two brilliant minds, and ms paint. But we finaly have a design for a propane semi-auto. |
Posted By: barn_user
Date Posted: 31 July 2006 at 9:11am
| I do beleive you have something pretty good here. You should really think about taking this to the next level and seeing if you can find a gun company to look at and maybe even produce it. If you make millions, just remember me. |
Posted By: Enos Shenk
Date Posted: 31 July 2006 at 1:48pm
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The big problem is a safety system for the propane mixture. In the C3, the fuel injector valve is pushed in at the end of the pump stroke, but the real clever part is the valve fills itself up with regulated propane, meaning the propane inside the valve is a fixed volume at a fixed pressure. If the user double pumps the gun, since the pressure of the propane inside the valve is the same as the pressure being fed from the regulator, no more propane is added to the system. Also, as a machinist, quite a few parts in your design would be very difficult to cut. ------------- 
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Posted By: TEHGANGSTER
Date Posted: 31 July 2006 at 2:35pm
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sell it to tippmann......but oh yeah, enos just said no, so its entirely possible it wont work
------------- 
I am a leaf on the wind, watch how i soar. |
Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 31 July 2006 at 3:55pm
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Just like everyother auto/semi auto propane idea, this wont work, it would get waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to from the small exsplotions goin on inside your marker. So ya, you could do it, and ya you can also seriously burn yourself and melt your own paintballs... ------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl Forum Vice President RIP T&O Forum |
Posted By: Styro Folme
Date Posted: 31 July 2006 at 4:56pm
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seems like it might work... but i think it's kinda a lost cause... but don't let me stop you. what i would like to see though, a one-handed c-3.... with a lever action style pump... that wouldn't be that hard to do though... ------------- X |
Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 01 August 2006 at 12:38am
Its that kind of mind set that gets nothing done. I already have a cooling system in mind, so dont count me out yet. I have been thinking about the set pressure. http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=propgun3nc7.jpg">  That is my latest design. The bolt is what mixes the air and propane, and pushes it into the chamber on the way back to the cocked position. I plan on using the same reg as the C3. I also redesigned the bolt latch so that it could be easy to make. This one will be one unit that can be screwed into the chamber. As far as heat is conserned, I found a site that sells a gel that allows virtually no heat through. So I would make a detachable shroud around the body of the gun that holds this gel. EDIT: and again the picture is alittle off, it will be longer and the latch/squeegy placement will need to be refined. And I will do such on paper later. Im just looking for some helpful ideas as far as mechanics and pressures are concerned. Thanks. |
Posted By: pattison
Date Posted: 01 August 2006 at 2:17am
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i can design a much simpler propane input valve, i'll try to draw it up at lunch
to all the naysayers: no, i don't honestly expect to make one of these, if it were made the rof would be around 2 bps, and it would look like a raygun because the combustion chamber would be about 100mm diameter. whether or not this will ever exist is not the point of this thread. ------------- Eat The Brisket |
Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 01 August 2006 at 2:38pm
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So I got to looking at the C3. I took the design of it, and added the blow forward bolt. I also got rid of the cocking handle and replaced it with a spring. The bolt should move forward after the shot is taken, then on the way back pull the cocking rod back with it, then the rod will spring forward to it original position. Then it all starts again. Note: I havent established a way for the bolt to move the rod. http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=propgun4lh5.jpg">  I mostly did this because the last design didnt have a velocity adjuster. Oh snap, just got a new idea. One of my earliest designs for a paintball gun used a valve based on the rotary engine. So I thought well why not base a propane marker on the rotary engine. Here is a simple idea that made. The compression stage should increase the efficiency of the marker. http://img424.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rpropgunhm8.jpg">  |
Posted By: pattison
Date Posted: 01 August 2006 at 6:17pm
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a wankel engine inside a paintball gun... "screw 20 bps, i shoot at 12000 rpm"
i broke out the autocad on this one 
the main spring is missing from the image, imagine it pulling the bolt straight backwards, and it will make more sense. also, most the parts are designed machine shop friendly, if not drill press friendly on this one problems: combustion chamber will have to be manufactured the animation is pretty horrible, i'll put the main spring in tomorrow also, the chamber is only 14 cubic inches, have no idea what it needs to be, but a 2 inch stroke is plenty, so the chamber will only change in diameter which will look silly on a gun now i just need a r and d budget edit: damn that picture is big. ------------- Eat The Brisket |
Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 01 August 2006 at 7:49pm
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Im having a hard time following where the exaust goes on that diagram. EDIT: It is pushed out the barrel? Very good design. I think we need to make one. I have a question though. How are your one way flap things designed? I have one design, it involves a bearing and a spring. I continued research on the "Wankel gun". So far this is what Ive got. http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rpropgun2ir1.jpg">  There is a soleniod that stops the movement of the rotary piston at the compression stage. When the trigger is pressed, the solenoid pulls down and the ignition fires. The solenoid has the job of pulling the engine stop pin and putting propane into the intake. However I do believe this gun will weigh too much. Just looking at different ideas to get the juices flowing. |
Posted By: blackdog144
Date Posted: 02 August 2006 at 1:46am
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interesting...
------------- http://imageshack.us">  
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Posted By: pattison
Date Posted: 02 August 2006 at 6:57pm
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here it is, my final drawing i think.
now i just need someone to build it. big picture again, only 44k though  ------------- Eat The Brisket |
Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 04 August 2006 at 9:32pm
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Ok, so I found out that I am going to have access to a machine shop at my school. Im going to use roughly the design above. Except for a change in the bolt latch, and I am going to move the air mixture valve to to beside the bolt. The chamber should end up being roughly 4.5 cubic inches. on further review I can make the chamber 3.5 cubic inches. As this will lower the profile of the chamber. Ill start a new thread when I begin the actuall work on it. This should be freakin sweet. |
Posted By: Enos Shenk
Date Posted: 06 August 2006 at 9:50pm
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You need to look at any design from a practicality point of view. Most of those parts would be extremely difficult if not impossible to actually make. I still cant figure out Pattisons image. Doesnt make any sense on what is moving what. Or what draws the propane out of the injector valve. Or how you would get an adequate fuel mix when the injector valve closes before the system mixes, so the only propane available to be mixed is contained in the small hose. -------------
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Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 07 August 2006 at 5:14pm
http://img158.imageshack.us/my.php?image=propgun4it8.jpg"> With an increase to the size of the rear valve body, and a change to the bolt. I put in a spring that when fired the piston pushes the spring back and latches it. The piston will then return to the original position. The spring on the exhaust piston will push it forward with the bolt. The bolt will hit the latch causeing the spring to release and push the bolt forward along with the exaust. Im not real sure this will work. It probably wont. But Im about ready to give up. lol. |
Posted By: dirtbike14455
Date Posted: 16 August 2006 at 7:11pm
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Posted By: pattison
Date Posted: 17 September 2006 at 12:59pm
Actually, in the last drawing i tried to make everything manufactuable using only a drill press and lathe. mcmaster part numbers are listed. No real milling. Everything is circular. The chamber would have to be made from scratch, or possibly a modified co2 tank(?). A cocker 3 way with a volume chamber on the input would be the obvious choice for the valve, that is the way my valve works.
It probably makes sense to me only cause I drew it. 1: At rest the breech is open, the ball drops in. The main (blue) spring is holding the valve open to the chamber, and holding the plunger back. 2: When fired the huge chamber pressure blows the bolt out of the powertube, overpowering the main spring, and when the bolt exits the powertube the feed neck has been sealed off so the paintball will shoot. The valve is now free to recharge w/ fresh propane. The bolt will lock in the forwards position thanks to the small spring clip that latches in the powertube. 3: When chamber pressure reaches zero, the plunger spring (green) will be able to push the plunger and flush the chamber. At the plunger's forward point it disengages the spring clip holding the bolt forwards, and the more powerful main (blue) spring will return the bolt and plunger together, and at the same time it will discharge the valve contents into the fresh chamber. Back to rest position. Ball will drop into the open breech. Dang, thats hard to explain in words. ------------- Eat The Brisket |
Posted By: __sneaky__
Date Posted: 17 September 2006 at 2:59pm
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why did u bump this... ------------- "I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl Forum Vice President RIP T&O Forum |
Posted By: pattison
Date Posted: 17 September 2006 at 3:11pm
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if it bothers you then don't read it.
i haven't had the patience or time to respond to es's post coherently. this weekend i do. ------------- Eat The Brisket |
Posted By: Razgriz Ghost
Date Posted: 17 September 2006 at 4:55pm
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My only problem with this, did you see the price tag on the c3? times it by seven. if you produce this it will definately be in the 2000 dollar range think of everything that goes into a semi auto marker and then of all the extra internals and so on that you guys are dicussing putting into this. |
Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 17 September 2006 at 5:26pm
| Thats kind of an outragious price estimation. When they switched from pump to semi on regular guns noone expected a price hike like that. lol. |
Posted By: Razgriz Ghost
Date Posted: 17 September 2006 at 9:27pm
| I thought it over and it would be a little outrageous. However I'd like to state that I'm outta this one as I feel that flaming you will be very very redundent. And so we don't read about your death on these forums in the future make sure to run the trigger switch from a 100 ft wire & get behind some metal and pay some bum off the street (or any one else expendable) to stand by with a fire extinguisher and a big roll of duct tape. And as a closing statement I'd like to suggest a name for this gun "the [insert name here] omfg I just blown my friggen arm off 2007 custom" |
Posted By: Bonte
Date Posted: 19 September 2006 at 8:34pm
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I think this is a great idea... to keep the chamber from being too wide try making it an elipptical shape and back in the middle of the back and forward grips....also with cooling im sure u could incase it in water or a computer heatsink. The heatsinks on computers are made to cool ofvery hot objects to room tempurature and i think would work very well!!! ------------- Tippmann 98 Custom Combat stock red dot sight Lapco offset sight Flatline barrel |
Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 20 September 2006 at 6:35pm
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I was looking at pictures of a propane nail gun. http://img158.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gunxc3.jpg">  Its not pretty but Im too lazy to make it look better. It essentially makes the bolt and chamber two different systems. This way the chamber can have a smaller profile. It uses a fan in the back to push the exhuast out. |