ProfReality

"It's easier for them to get marijuana than it is alcohol, FYI"

yes but kids can still get there hands on alcohol

"He already can. The point is that the supply of drugs is higher than ever, so why keep fighting it when we can help the people who are addicted and don't have the support to get off of it themselves."

people who are addicted dont want help they want there drugs

"So instead of locking them up in jail, and spending millions in the process why don't we use that very same money and put it towards rehab programs?"

so instead of spending the money on a "drug war" were selling them there drugs and then were paying for them to go to a rehab program that thell never complete, Cause were still selling them drugs cause there legal!

"Legal means it will be regulated, which clearly means minors wont be allowed to purchase it."

but just like alcohol theyll get there hands on it 

little devil wrote: yes but kids can still get there hands on alcohol

So should we make alcohol illegal again?

little devil wrote: people who are addicted dont want help they want there drugs

little devil wrote: so instead of spending the money on a "drug war" were selling them there drugs and then were paying for them to go to a rehab program that thell never complete, Cause were still selling them drugs cause there legal!

You're making it pretty clear you don't know what you're talking about. Why do you think people won't be rehabilitated when drugs are legal? Because they are legal? That doesn't make sense. People can get drugs now, in greater supplies than ever before, and they are illegal.

little devil wrote: but just like alcohol theyll get there hands on it

all i have to ask is have u ever been addicted to a drug like coke?

cause its not the fact that you want rehab, its the fact that your body depends on the drug, and youll be able to get this drug where ever they would sell it legally.

drug addictions are phycological and physical. YOU for some reason think that youll be able to quit doin herion when the times right.

thats simply not the case, if it were sublime would still be kicking it!

man wat the hell, so if it was totally legalized and they were to set up free rehab programs for people who want it everything will okay. Rehab will work like it always does(in your world). and these people can live there normal lives.

is that what your saying?

"Rehabilitation will always work because that's the definition of rehabilitation"

well i guess you arent in to that much reality professor. I have been to rehab and i can say for a fact that rehab isnt 100% effective!

here in canada rehab and **edited** like that for the most part is free!

I can see where your comming from saying that there spending all this cash when they can be making it instead, but through becoming drug dealers is a little messed

im sick and tired of this subject, no one will ever be right

but one thing i have to say is u cant judge or say what an addict can do untill youve been one or are one.

your a pipe dreamer man

well at least im an idiot who lives in the real world and sees how things actually work.

unlike you, IF they all became legal and IF they made better rehab programs and IF they regulated it and IF kids couldnt get it, and IF people were more educated and IF people never got addicted to any of them and IF the drug dealers right now didnt under sell the government and take the money they should be making.

maybe IF we kill all the original drug dealers we can really capitalize on your idea. 

[QUOTE=ProfReality]

"Making them legal, having better rehab programs and regulating them are all very achievable steps."



well obviously your to set on your ways .  you think the more money we spend the easyier it is for crack heads to become normal again. well proffessor your talking out of your ass! your pipe dreaming. youve never been in rehab, you dont know what its like to be addicted to drugs. you think all the moeny in the world can save people. Why are so many musicians dead from everdoses and stuff you cant tell me they didnt have the money, you cant tell me that at least some of them didnt want help. They did it because drugs are addicting, and even with self motivation to quit its not as if its that easy by ANY means.

the only thing that u can do s lock them up and hopefully they cant get there drug of choice in jail. thats the only thing that will stop a junkie from doing there stuff ( not being able to get it)

not magically putting more money making a potion and all this b.s.

 

"I mean that's just one thing. With them legal, people can do research on the effects of all the drugs and conclusively determine their effects and how to counter the addictions to them."

why cant they do that now?, why isnt there a little bottle that will make joe crack head on the straight and normal path again. see once again your speaking out of your ass

OK, I think what the good professor is really trying to say here is why lock someone up in jail for having or using drugs, if they are not hurting anyone?

Someone answer that question.  If I sit in my recliner and shoot myself full of Heroin and watch TV until my eyes bleed, then who am I hurting?

The only answer is, myself.  So, ultimately, the government by virtue of it's laws is trying to protect me from myself...  Well then, at least be consistent and make big macs, alcohol, cigarettes, Hostess Cupcakes, Little Debbies, sugary soda, and every OTHER thing that's also bad for me illegal as well.

Just because you legalize drugs doesn't mean that they become socially acceptable.  You don't have to stop drug testing for jobs, you don't have to stop preaching about it in Health and Science classes in school, you don't have to get rid of D.A.R.E programs, you don't have to make it legal to be high in public, you don't have to make it legal to get high and drive, you just stop putting people in jail.

And why stop putting them in jail?!?  BECAUSE IT'S NOT WORKING!  Forty years of the "drug war" and 4 trillion dollars later, people are still using drugs in record numbers.  The drug problem is a simple economic model:  As long as there is a demand, there will be a supply.  YOU CANNOT FIX THE PROBLEM BY TRYING TO TAKE AWAY THE SUPPLY, YOU MUST ELIMINATE THE DEMAND.  By trying to take away the supply, you only artificially inflate the street value of the drugs, and cause MORE crime because users need more money for less drugs.  Why not take the BILLIONS of dollars our government alone spends on attacking the supply every year, and find some way to attack the demand?  Hey, and while we're at it, we'll just free up some jail space so the REAL criminals can rot where they belong, and not get free pass because of jail overcrowding.  Additionally, perhaps we can tax the hell out of the sale of it and give me some of my paycheck back in the process (ya, well, a man can dream anyhow...).

There is no simple solution, but clearly I think our current approach is not working, and has not worked for 30+ years.

it makes sense to supply them cause someone has to do it so watever

but drugdealers still will undersell the gouvernment, pot will be grown, chem/grow houses will be set up in every neighbourhood possible.

and if it was sold like alcohol is now(in canada) break and enters will go up enormously. Considering the drug supply will never go away.

little devil wrote: but drugdealers still will undersell the gouvernment, pot will be grown, chem/grow houses will be set up in every neighbourhood possible.

Yeah just like those wiley cigarette and alcohol drug dealers are making a fortune. What you don't seem to understand is that people who want drugs already do them. The supply is already massive. Making them legal isn't going to make more people do drugs. People who want to do them already do them.

little devil wrote: and if it was sold like alcohol is now(in canada) break and enters will go up enormously. Considering the drug supply will never go away.

okay cool yeah do it up, you and your followers make your voices heard start some **edited**, get the local people who are in power to hear your calls.

and for the people how believe that drugs only hurt your self your pretty ingnorant or you obviuosly dont have anybody for you like family and friends which wouldnt suprise me with people like prof walking around with a stick up his ass.

so ya im done with this, if i wanted a week of drugs and sex id just take a trip to amsterdam thank you. 

little devil wrote: and IF kids couldnt get it,

They are never going to be able to stop kids from getting it.

Edit: Seriously, there is allways going to be ways to get around laws. Drug usage rate's wouldnt go up, there already so easily obtainible the only difference is our jails wounldnt be so damn overcrowded.

Predatorr wrote: I'm sure that if they made them legal, a lot of super christian people would still stay away from them.  Its true that the poeople who really want to do drugs already do them, but i see no benefit in making them lega.  A lot of lives are saved when people are caught and sent to either jail or rehab.  I honestly can't see spending money for a high.  I'd rather watch porn or go get laid.  Having seen the effects of drugs, i choose to stay away.  To each his own.

When it comes to drugs/alcohol, moderation is key.

Da Hui wrote: little devil wrote: and IF kids couldnt get it, Do you realize how dumb that statement is. You name any drug and I could probably have it within the next 24-48 hours. They are never going to be able to stop kids from getting it. Edit: Seriously, there is allways going to be ways to get around laws. Drug usage rate's wouldnt go up, there already so easily obtainible the only difference is our jails wounldnt be so damn overcrowded.

what the hell do u mean a nvr said that it was impossible for kids to get drugs, **edited** while i posted this i just got a call for  a half p

carl_the_sniper wrote: ohh yeah so i dont have to make a new topic: in canada can you get in trouble from the police just for asking someone for marijuana?

ok can you get in trouble from the police for skng someone if they have pot in canada or america?

we had a pot cafe in my city for a bit, sit down and light up

weve had marches down the street for legalization were ounce blunts were passed around beside cops.

pot was dicriminalized for a few months aswell, thats really how it should be

if your to ask for pot you wont get in trouble, if your to supply it obvioulsy u will

the only time a cop can really screw you is if u pass a  dub like the vid says its considered trafficing

and yes people burn pretty much wherever they want, ive toked a few times right beside the C.N. tower.

little devil wrote: Da Hui wrote: little devil wrote: and IF kids couldnt get it, Do you realize how dumb that statement is. You name any drug and I could probably have it within the next 24-48 hours. They are never going to be able to stop kids from getting it. Edit: Seriously, there is allways going to be ways to get around laws. Drug usage rate's wouldnt go up, there already so easily obtainible the only difference is our jails wounldnt be so damn overcrowded. what the hell do u mean a nvr said that it was impossible for kids to get drugs, **edited** while i posted this i just got a call for  a half p

 One minete you all anti drug and the next your telling us about selling it. Dont even try that with me cause I know you dont sell.

Take it from somewon who actually has knowledge about stuff like this. Drugs will never go away.

i was emplying thats what prof was saying man.

"One minete you all anti drug and the next your telling us about selling it. Dont even try that with me cause I know you dont sell."

just because i do drugs doesnt mean i have a ignorant perception, i know drugs are bad and yesi do them and yes if u sell it you save cash while making cash. win/win 

/\

marijuana is the perfect drug

just asking cause i spent all saturday night looking for some

i quit drinking a few months ago after a really fun night that turned horrible...

Somehow this thread slipped me by...

Too much to respond to in detail, but I will summarize my thoughts, in simplified form.

1.  Drugs are bad.  Mmm-kay.

2.  Seriously - drugs are bad.  Society would be better off without them.  That includes alcohol and tobacco.

3.  The principal victim of drug abuse, however, is the abuser.  While friends and family suffer as well, and there is an overall drag on society, the main victim is also the perp.

4.  Crime is also bad.  Violent crime is worse.

5.  Crime usually has a separate (and often innocent) victim, separate from the perpetrator.  Crime also affects friends, family, and society, but has a direct victim.

6.  Therefore (and for other reasons), violent crime is worse than drugs.  If we have to choose one or the other, we are better off with drugs than with violent crime.

7.  If people really really want something, they will find a way to get it.  Witness drugs, alcohol, tobacco, pornography, prostitution, gambling, whatever.

8.  Making something legal will make it easier to get.  Making something illegal will make it harder to get.  Harder =/= impossible.  See point 7.

9.  Therefore, if we make drugs legal, drugs will be easier to get.  Drug use will likely increase, at least initially.

10.  Making something illegal leads to black markets.  The extensiveness of the black market depends on the popularity of the illegal product.

11.  Black markets lead to organized crime, since smuggling is a complicated business.

12.  Organized crime is super-bad.  Organized crime leads to violence, guns on the street, and more crime, not to mention an alternate "career path" for poor kids that otherwise might do something useful.

13.  Illegal drugs are providing the principal black market that allows organized crime to exist in the US today.

14.  The converse is also true - legalizing something kills the black market, and without a black market organized crime cannot exist.

Therefore, my relatively obvious interim conclusion.  Legalizing ALL drugs will lead to increased drug use, which is bad.  It will also, however, pull the rug out from under the gangs, and drastically reduce crime in the entire country - this may take some time, unfortunately.

Trading off increased drug use to gain reduced crime strikes me as an obvious win.  I believe we should essentially legalize all recreational drugs immediately.

-- Quick aside before I get into the next issue:  somebody suggested that the black market dealers would undersell the legal dealers.  This is obviously false, unless we burden drugs with excessive taxes.  Black marketeering is very expensive.  Illegal operations have all the same costs as legal operations (other than taxes), but also have to pay for guns, secrecy, more expensive and inefficient transportation, and has to pay higher wages to compensate for the danger of the business.  Black markets can never compete with a free market.

NOW - that said, there are problems, and plenty of them.  In most countries around the world, even legal drugs are heavily regulated.  When we say that we will make cocaine "legal", do we mean "legal" like aspirin (available at grocery store, but subject to FDA purety/quality review), or "legal" like Percoset (prescription only), or "legal" like a pencil (available everywhere, with no significant government review at all)?

The most consistent position would be to make cocaine like Percoset, but under what circumstances would somebody ever get a prescription for crack?  And if we move it to the aspirin category, we now have to justify why Percoset (and Viagra) is prescription-only when freakin' crack cocaine is on the shelf next to Advil.

There are plenty of other concerns as well, of course.  Advertising regulations, use restrictions, age limits, and so forth - but IMO the main obstacle to legalization is that we already have in place an entire drug-restricting structure that would have to be completely rethought to allow for truly legalizing recreational drugs.

reifidom wrote: Even if it does make sense on paper, and even if it would ease crime without causing bigger problems, I don't see it coming into law anytime soon.

True dat.  Except that I would not be surprised to see a Canada-style easing of MJ rules.

Well, of course you're right.  The logic-free zone would never stake political careers on hot potatoes like this.  I would say that we'll end up with the status quo for most of my life. 

We *might* see some decriminalization of the kiddie drugs in the future, but as now I would suspect that will occur at the municipal levels mostly, with perhpas a few rogue states chiming in over time.

It's a shame really, because I feel the drug problem will never be anything other than it is if we keep fighting it in the same manner. 

Clark, interesting point about the Percoset, and one I'd actually never really put much thought in to.  Kind of difficult to sell hard drugs over the counter, and require a prescription for pain killers.  And I would suggest that something like Percoset or Vicodin would be the subject of far more abuse than the "hard" drugs on the shelf next to them, just because of percieved "safety" of the pills if they were OTC. 

Interesting.....

"somebody suggested that the black market dealers would undersell the legal dealers.  This is obviously false, unless we burden drugs with excessive taxes. "

all the medicinal users i know have gone to the legal place and have noticed there prices are out of this world

they sell highs,mediums and lows(ounces)

street price for the high is like 220 there its 280(full price)

for there mediums its 240

lows 200 at least

the only good thing they do is tell you the strain

needless to say everybody i know who is able to get legal dope buys it off an illigal source

i believe they would tax drug like theve taxed cigarettes. cigarettes have doubled in price in the last 10 years pretty much becuase of taxes

little devil wrote: "somebody suggested that the black market dealers would undersell the legal dealers.  This is obviously false, unless we burden drugs with excessive taxes. "   all the medicinal users i know have gone to the legal place and have noticed there prices are out of this world

But that is not a free market.  Access to "medicinal" marijuana is very limited.  If the forces of capitalism were allowed to dictate price and provide ample supply, the black marketeers would not stand a chance.

legalize weed!

keep the rest illegal, altho they make some really good points, they're right proabition doesnt work. But that doesnt mean we should say OK! here's you heroine!

As has been mentioned before, I don't think that legalizing something necessarily means that we are saying "ok".  We could (and should) make every effort to discourage people from using recreational drugs.  This approach can work - see the sharp decline in smoking (in the US) over the last decade.