Thank you Sen. Kerry.
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Topic: Thank you Sen. Kerry.
Posted By: Kristofer
Subject: Thank you Sen. Kerry.
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 4:53pm
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I am more proud than ever to claim I am from this mans state. Apparently I'm an idiot in his book who cant make it in college. Even though I am in college now.
"You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. And if you don't, you get stuck in Iraq" -Senator John Kerry. My democratic Senator from Massachusetts. What a great man he is. |
Replies:
Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 4:55pm
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You're not in Iraq. Nice try though. (Disclaimer- I do believe Kerry is a tool.) ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 5:03pm
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Granted that Kerry shouldn't be allowed to open his mouth in public - I think this little gaffe is (unsurprisingly) being blown out of proportion. I don't think that he meant to imply that everybody in the armed services is stupid/dropout/retarded/whatever. But hey - it's election season. |
Posted By: FlimFlam
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 5:17pm
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You guys are awefully dismissive of a pretty condescending (in my opinion) quote. I wonder if it would be different on the other side of the aisle... At any rate, if you follow his logic, it DOES explain how he ended up in Viet Nam... ------------- 
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Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 5:17pm
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Uh...yeah....wont defend that one. He butchered whatever point he was trying to make. I never did like him that much, he was like the worst Dem candidate possible in '04, but I did like some of his ideas. Still wish he would have won by a bigger margin though.....
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Posted By: Kristofer
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 5:19pm
It doesnt matter that I'm not in Iraq. I am preparing for it. We should be hearing a call for volunteers to go in a month or so at my unit. So Yeah. I'll be there. Nice try though. |
brihard wrote:Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 5:25pm
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When do you leave?
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 5:29pm
I don't think we are being dismissive - everybody so far has agreed that it was the wrong thing to say. But I don't think it was condescending. That's the misinterpretation. I read his statement as a statement about armed services politics, recruiting strategies, and the Iraq war in general. Maybe I'm the one reading too much into it. But the interpretation that the White House is putting on this comment makes no sense coming from someone like Kerry. |
Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 5:30pm
Fair enough, and my apologies for being a bit harsh- there's just a lot of wannabes around, and it's very predominant especially among new military members who haven't actually been anywhere or done anything yet and still insist on a sort of overblown legitimacy. I'm always careful not to give the impression that I've served overseas when I as of yet have not, and it irks me a tad when people handle it different. If some of them were to be believed, half the new kids in my regiment will be fast roping from helicopters carrying MP5s this time next year... ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: GI JOES SON
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 5:34pm
| yea kerrys not the best candidate, but you have to admit though.....when bush and kerry are side my side, kerrys the lesser of two evils |
Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 5:36pm
Yeah, thats what I was thinkin, seems like he just really screwed up on some kind of "the poor go to war" allusion..... Joe: Most definitely. I could beat Blackwell purple for what he did to him here in Ohio..... ------------- |
Posted By: phillll227
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 5:37pm
???? ------------- |
Posted By: Kristofer
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 5:45pm
MP5s? Why on earth would they use an MP5 The rounds are too small. They wont do anything. Hell the 5.56 doesnt do anything when the insurgents are so high on god knows what when they fight us. (thats what I've been told by many Marines.) What unit are you in that would switch to MP5? Are you FAST or something? As for when I am going. Its anyone's guess. Rumor has it that in January they may be sending those who havent been to Iraq (me included) to 29 Palms for desert warfare training. As long as its after December 9 I dont care. I really want to go to the Marine Corps. birthday Ball on December 9. |
Posted By: pattison
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 5:45pm
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if he is implying that most military people are dumb, he is right.
there is, of course, a certain percentage that are not dumb, but it is below 50 without question. political views aside, that is a valid statement. ------------- Eat The Brisket |
Posted By: Hippymon
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 5:45pm
ummm.. i must say, you are truely an ignorant, anti-american, comunist.  ------------- w0000t trolling is my specialty. |
Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 5:48pm
Yeah, he got http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen - screwed out of Ohio and the presidency....if he would have won by a little more they may not have been able to steal it.... ------------- |
Posted By: pattison
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 5:51pm
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rolling stone news: "only slightly more biased than fox news" ------------- Eat The Brisket |
Posted By: phillll227
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 5:53pm
I think if there was a list of unbiased news sources, Rolling Stone would probably be second to last, only ahead of Al-Jazeera. ------------- |
Posted By: Kristofer
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 6:06pm
Where did you get this information? I know a lot of people in the military. I dont know that many who are dumb. Not many at all. Most are intelligent. |
Posted By: Pate
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 6:13pm
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Most
people join the military because its an alternate to working out of
High School(full time), an experience, To defend there country(there
still out there), to get put through college, or because they are
unsure what what they want to do in life.
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It feels good to be a gangster |
Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 6:18pm
Oh for christ's sake....just read it. It's all backed up and sited..... ------------- |
Posted By: battlefreak
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 6:20pm
yea alot of people who are in it are in it for the college scholorships ------------- 
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Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 6:35pm
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I agree with what he said. ------------- 
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Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 6:49pm
What who said? Edited Addition:
Where do you get your information? The rate of http://www.dod.mil/prhome/poprep2002/chapter3/c3_education.htm - high school graduates or equivalent among enlisted members in the DoD is 99.1%, the civilian rate is 89%. Note that this does not include the officer corp, which all posess college degrees. The percentage of college educations is higher in the civilian world (56.2 compared to 10.4), but this number becomes less significant when the age groupings of the military and civilian groups are compared. http://www.prb.org/Template.cfm?Section=Population_Bulletin1&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=12460 - Over 40% of enlisted members are between the ages of 17-24 (prime college attendance age) while less than 10% of the civilian labor force is in this age group. ------------- 
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Posted By: phillll227
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 7:13pm
No, that argument is not valid. Just because something is cited does not make it fact. I think that you are blind to the bias in that article because you want it to be true. The Rolling Stone article might as well be an editorial. One search in Google will find a hundred rebuttals. ------------- |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 7:15pm
Senator Kerry -------------
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Posted By: Kristofer
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 7:16pm
So you think. If people do bad in school, they have no choice but to go to Iraq because they arent smart enough for anything else? |
Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 7:16pm
Pfft. You must not konw very much if you can't realize what he means. ------------- 
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Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 7:18pm
I think the military is a popular option by people who do not have many other choices, yes. -------------
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Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 7:18pm
If you want to talk argument validity, your committing the "ad hominem" big time right now. Just because it's from a source that is labeled "liberal" doesn't mean the article is any less factual. Did ya read it yet? Oh and a quick search on Google will find thousands of rebuttals on anything you want....means nothing. ------------- |
Posted By: Mack
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 7:24pm
I wasn't sure if he was referring to Sen. Kerry's statement or one of the other off topic arguments occurring afterwards. Oh, by the way, it's spelled "know", not "konw". -------------
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Posted By: Kristofer
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 7:28pm
Thats not the question. Thats not what Kerry said. He said: "You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. And if you don't, you get stuck in Iraq". Thats not about options. Thats about being intelligent and doing well in school. Answer that question. Do you believe he is saying you are lacking intelligence if you serve in the military? |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 7:30pm
No. -------------
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Posted By: Kristofer
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 7:31pm
Thank you for the answer. |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 7:34pm
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Glad we cleared that up.
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 7:40pm
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Have no idea why he would put foot in mouth like this 1 week before elections. Just activated the military vote, not a good thing for dems.
It does go with a recent series of statements from the left. I do remmember the only the poor and uneducated join the military statements of a few months ago. The spin mysters are on it, it will go away here soon, as Kerry tap dances over someone elses political career. ------------- 
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Posted By: Badsmitty
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 8:03pm
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Kerry screwed up. Hope it doesn't cost my team too much. I'm guessing there are very few people this late in the game who can be swayed one way or the other. People's minds are made up. Besides, if your patriotismo gets all in a bind over what Kerry said, you should still be stinging over President Bush jokingly looking under desks and rugs for W.M.D.'s during the national press correspondents dinner. |
Posted By: phillll227
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 8:36pm
Do you honestly believe that if President Bush "stole" the election the national media would let it slip by for one second? DO you have any idea how big the cover up would be? This is almost as ridiculous as the people that believe that President Bush is directly responsible for 9/11. Rolling Stone is not a source that I trust to be fair and balanced when it comes to a Republican President. Period. ------------- |
Posted By: DBibeau855
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 8:42pm
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I guess there arent any officers in Iraq, just chock full of sergeants? K, gotcha. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/DBibeau855/?chartstyle=myspacecolors"> 
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Posted By: Kristofer
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 9:09pm
NCO's are pretty smart too dont forget. I had a Staff Sergeant that had a Masters. He didnt want to be an officer. He liked being a Grunt. I had a Sergeant who was in the process of getting his masters. |
Posted By: Ken Majors
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 10:25pm
The most disrespectful statement I have witnessed on this forum thus far. ------------- RLTW |
Posted By: Predatorr
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 10:40pm
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finally hearing about this, it irks me. My mother, father, brother have all been in. My father spent 22 yeras, my mother 4 (got preggo) and my brother is in now. My mother and father had college degrees, and my brother is in the process of doing green to gold. That just pisses the hell out of me, not only because he said it, but because it's completely wrong. A good family friend is over there right now, and he happened to be an A student. Why, Senator Kerry, why? [/rant] |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 10:58pm
Pity. -------------
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 11:16pm
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You must not come here often. More to the point, if you read the entire thread slowly, you would have seen that all TKD was saying is that the military is often the employer of last resort (true). TKD interpreted Kerry's statement to say that "if you don't stay in school, you will be in need of an employer of last resort". Basically a stay-in-school-rah-rah speech, albeit poorly stated. Pretty obvious, really. It would almost require intentional blindness to arrive at any other conclusion. To take this as an attack on the military is idiotic. |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 11:29pm
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Its like you know me too well Clark. That is what I was saying. People who do not have the grades or money to go to any college (community or not) have one or two options. Get low paying manual labor job, or join the military. Most of my friends back home who could not get into college just joined the Navy or Airforce (for some reason those two recruit down here like crazy). Recruiters can be found more often in poor neighborhoods, and in poorer performing schools. There is a reason for that. I am not saying that everyone in the military is stupid. Someone from my school got a 36 (That is perfect) on his ACT and got a full ride to the Airforce Academy. Yes, he took it. I do not think he is stupid. I do think there are a lot of stupid people who have no other means but to join the military, and not as officers. They are the grunts going to Iraq. Like Mr. Kent said, John Kerry was not saying all soldiers are stupid. He was saying the same thing I am saying, he just worded it poorly. The chip on the shoulders of the forum-servicemen is astounding. -------------
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 12:01am
Stalker. Duh. I may chip in on this sometime tomorrow if I feel like it... ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: Kristofer
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 8:53am
Ah. So it comes out. Being a grunt makes one stupid. So I am stupid. Because I scored relatively high on the ASVAB. Yet I chose Infantry. I'm a rifleman. Puts me right on the frontlines and makes me dumb. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 8:54am
The arrogance of those individuals on the forum who have never served or have the intestinal fortatude to serve, as well as thier ingnorance on the military is even more astounding. The spin mysters are doing thier usual great job, trying to defend a man who can "botch a joke", do we now make fun of his attempts at language, I figured with all the education he could master a simple joke. But we should have trusted him with the language of international diplomacy......can't have it both ways. -------------
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Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 9:13am
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Phil: No point in arguing with ya man. Try reading the article with an open mind and then pm me. We're going off topic in this thread. Anyway, on Kerry, did anyone hear his explanation? He said he was referring to the importance of being informed citizens and students of history so that their country doesn't get stuck in a place like Iraq. I don't know how genuine that is, but I do have trouble believing that a man who signed up and went into a war zone with his fellow troops is actually suggesting that our men and women in the US Military are stupid or uneducated. Oh and I hate the term "anti-military"....I seriously can not think of anyone who is anti-military, except for that idiot church in Florida and that one gothic lookin kid. Just because you oppose how they are being used or the amount of money that is going to them instead of programs that would help the US citizenry, they say you hate our troops....it's bullcrap. ------------- |
Posted By: Justice
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 9:52am
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I think Kerry must be satisfied at his current role in govn't. With those comments we wont be making any new friends. Democrats =  ------------- 
-JUSTICE http://www.myspace.com/outkastpaintball - Outkast Myspace |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 9:57am
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I swear - you can't possibly be that dumb. You must be misunderstanding this on purpose. Please tell me you are misunderstanding this on purpose. |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 10:08am
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How is this arrogant? Whale is making a very straightforward observation about the military. There is no rational way to take this as an insult.
If you are referring to the professional spinners, then clearly I agree - their function is to spin any news item to the favor of their party, all rationality aside. But I do not recall ANY of the people in this thread being Kerry supporters - in 2004 or now - and we certainly do not consider Kerry a master of language. "Would that it were" is almost a bad for the English language as "nucular". Here's my short summary of the situation: 1. Kerry made what was obviously a joke/snide observation about recruiting reality, and an encouragement to stay in school. 2. The statement was somewhat politically incorrect, but obviously not meant as an insult to anybody in particular. 3. The GOP has spun this on its head. Not surprising - that's their job. Whatever. 4. Various military folks with grenades up their butts are determined to be insulted by this, despite the obvious non-insulting nature of the statements in question. 5. The reason for 4 is ... I'm drawing a blank on that one. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 10:14am
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That in itself is the problem for many who never served. From the current slant in the news, the trend is to doubt any statement no matter how percieved at the moment, by those who have shown no love for the military in the past. His past references as well as testimony as to the VN vet as a "war criminal" besmerching(sp) the reputation of another generation has made many question his actual motive or intent.
I personally am not insulted by the remark, I consider the source, based on above. The perceptions of youth here on the initial comment and spin leads me to question the standards they see themselves upholding. -------------
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Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 10:30am
I cannot feel sorry for you if you are bound and determined to be insulted by anything I say. Read what I said. Thank you, come again. -------------
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Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 10:34am
I find that many current/ex-military folks seem to think that because you haven't done what they have done or seen what they have seen that you don't have a right to an opinion on military matters. Displaying such an opinion is perceived as arrogance..... ------------- |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 10:35am
Misspelling ignorance, mmm delicious irony. The shoulder-chip must be getting pretty heavy to pull the "Well you are just not brave enough to serve, therefore, your opinion counts for nothing" card. Like I said previous to this, if you are bound and determined to be insulted by what I am saying, then there is not a thing I can do. Let me re-state once again. When people do not have many options left, can not get into an institution of higher learning, and do not want to work a minimum wage job, what do they do? They join the military. Tell us, oh noble OS, why did you join the military again? -------------
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Posted By: Kristofer
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 10:35am
| I read what you said. You said. The dumb ones are the grunts going to Iraq. Plain and simple. |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 10:37am
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Judging by this post, it is apparently true in your case. |
Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 10:38am
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lol.....Kris, seriously?
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 10:38am
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I am aware of that. But that's the thing - Whale ISN'T making a statement about military matters. He is making a statement about civilian employment opportunities. |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 10:39am
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ruh-roh
grr - bumped myself. stupid triple-posting. |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 10:40am
Hahaha...Apparently you did not read it then. You should take the blindfold off first, it would help the situation. Not all grunts going to Iraq are dumb. But if a kid who did not have the grades to get into college joins up on the dirt bottom, I have a feeling where he is going to be going. Recruiters go to poor areas and schools for a reason. -------------
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 10:52am
TKD I joined the military (initially after the request by the NYC Courts) and yet re-enlisted and continued in the military probably for the same reason or reasons you are in college and persuing your personal goals and career aspirations. I liked what I did, It was the best of times, yet the worst of times. Being a "Grunt" was fun. Why do you play paintball, a "wargame" a contridiction in belief system if you ask me 
A simple disclaimer of social responsibility of military: 99.9 percent of the enlisted forces have at least a high school education, and 73.3 percent have been to college. Compare to your social standard "poor" community. It is my sense of duty and honor, that even carries on today. As an example I can easily stay home, rest and recoup as per DR's orders, but I contacted my Diversity professor, and I will be there, braces and crutches, for the class debate on Friday, for there are three other students on my debate "team" that I will not let down, nor expect to carry my load in my absense. I readily admit that I am not well edumacated in "high english" and do make the usual and frequent two fingered fast typing errors. (plus today the percocet isn't helping  still some pain involved).
Actually recruiters can be found everywhere, in rich communities, poor, college campuses (those without the prejudice)and yes even in the poor communities. ROTC and Reserve and NG enlistments are up, yes for college assistance, why is it so expensive to be "trained" as a liberal, yet the military pays you to be "trained" as an American. -------------
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Posted By: pattison
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 11:12am
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disclaimer: generalizations follow
having spent some time in you must have seen plenty of exactly the people we have been referring to. the military, with it's unwillingness to fire people, manages to take in the people who fail at life, and couldn't handle a deep fryer at mcdonald's these people stay (the smarter ones leave after 1 term) and become leaders of hundreds ------------- Eat The Brisket |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 11:17am
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Actually the reverse is generally true. The higher educated and skilled re-enlist for second terms to complete training in desired skill fields or college. The usual entitlement mentality, future paper hat, name tag wearing individuals leave after first enlistments, not thinking long term. -------------
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Posted By: RicWhic414
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 11:24am
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wouldnt you say that most "higher educated people" go to college to become officers if they want to be in the armed services. I have nothing against people that come right out of high school and inlist, my unlce did it and I have more respect for that man then anyone else on this planet. All im saying the army will take anyone no matter there backround and can turn them into great people, some dont turn out right and thats why they are told to leave or just quit
------------- Tuesday starts the weekend... YAYAYA!!!! CHUFF CHUFF |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 11:29am
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There are those college educated who prefere to be in the enlisted ranks. It is a matter of choice, lead or be lead, education does not necesarily make a leader. And that fact is true in the military as well as in the bussiness world. -------------
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Posted By: RicWhic414
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 11:47am
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I know that is true anywhere. Sen. Kerry had no reason to say what he said, I bet this is not his election time, (like his is not being voted for this year I believe he has 4 more years) Anyways I can see where his statement came from but he is stupid for saying it
------------- Tuesday starts the weekend... YAYAYA!!!! CHUFF CHUFF |
Posted By: sporx
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 11:58am
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I'll be honest. I didn't even read this thread. This may have already been
said... but he made a dry joke and now it's being blown out of porportion. That's all. If someone has said that already...then sorry to repeat. ------------- 
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Posted By: MT. Vigilante
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 11:59am
All officers are college educated, and there are quite a few of them in Iraq right now, so just because you are in Iraq doesn't mean you are un-educated. But in another note, if you join the military right now your odds of going to war are pretty good, no matter what your education level is. And also, the military actually does not want people who are un-educated idiots, they want soldiers who have a pretty good level of intelligence because modern warfare requires it, that's why you can't join if you do not have a High School Diploma, and why they require good scores on the ASVAB test for most jobs in the military. And just for the record, Kerry is just doing what he has always done since he got back from Vietnam, bad mouth everyone in the military by calling them Murderers, rapists, and most recently; idiots. And he proves that he meant what he said by his refusal to appologize. So John Kerry further insults my inteligence by feeding me some crap about it being a joke that was misconstrued. -------------  Join the XP Re-Revolution!
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 12:20pm
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That. Is. Not. What. TKD. Was. Saying. How many times do we have to say that?
There's some truth and falsehood in there. The military would obviously prefer to have smart people, but they have lowered their minimum requirements in recent years to meet recruiting goals, and there have been many reports of recruiters further bending those rules to accept folks who are borderline retarded or have psychological problems. The HS diploma (or equivalent, mind you) requirement precedes "modern warfare" - I'm not sure I would agree that modern warfare is the reason behind that requirement. More research required.
That's not what Kerry has "always done". That is just factually incorrect. And it is so blatantly factually incorrect that you obviously haven't even tried to look into it.
Or maybe it really WAS a joke that was misconstrued, in which case he would also not want to apologize? |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 12:45pm
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Clark, the technology now being incorperated into even the Infantry is requiring a base level of education. Computerized gunsights on fighting vehicles, complex night vision and missile system sights, computerized indirect fire contol systems for light mortars, even basic map reading requires a degree of math skills for intersection and resection navigation problems. The new 21st century infantryman is being equiped more and more with hightech complex systems, HUD styled individual weapon sighting systems displayed on eye armor, burst style radio encription systems, complex HUD displayed map and mission situation maps, real time comlink to support systems of artillery and armor, laser designator technology for indirect fire "danger close" munitions, real time satcom displays on enemy dispositions.
It is no longer a walk, point weapon and shoot enviorment...yes high education standards is required for the higher degree of attention to detail, and sequential operations training for these systems to operate properly. A FDC (fire direction control computer) for a 60mm mortar section of three tubes requires 12 step operation performed in sequence with proper input of range, direction/map declination (in mils not deg), terrain elevation difference based on contour lines, type of round to be fired, fuse setting, charge setting ToT requirement, etc for rounds to land on target. -------------
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Posted By: pattison
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 12:48pm
for the most part, the only jobs that require more than a grade-school education are in the "cw" and the "gs" pay grades the highest required score on the asvab is for satellite communications, and it is not very demanding. ------------- Eat The Brisket |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 12:49pm
| Oh, I don't dispute that, OS. I just don't accept (at this point, anyway) a position that hi-tech warfare is the reason that we have a HS equivalency requirement for the military. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 12:56pm
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The military has had to adapt to the times, with education requirements, as well as adapting the "video game" skills of todays youth in developeing weapon systems and simulations. I found even before I retired in 92 that the understanding rate difference of high school grads and non, of even simple plotting boards, map reading and sequential skills could not be taught effectivly by simple repetition of task. Without a understanding of math, and english combat effectivness in some tasks not as complex as todays was suspect. ( I actually had an E-7 while I was in the Batts that actually could not read, he was unfortuanately carried along by the EEO programs)
I still train Res/NG's, and find that even HS grads have diffculty in mastering map reading navigation problems without GPS tech (what do you do if no battery or system breaksdown). Night land navigation training has a sustained failure rate of approx 50% with several retraining/retesting periods required. -------------
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Posted By: RicWhic414
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 1:08pm
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This is pretty dumb that we are fighting about this Sen. Kerry is an idiot he is a politician he knows what he is saying. If he was trying to say something funny about the president which is what he is trying to say it meant now, he is stupid, His job is to talk to the public and he is lucky he is not up for election now. Any person that signs up for the armed services is a greater person then I, I have much respect for any of you guys/girls that are in the armed services. This just shows how great he would have been as a president
------------- Tuesday starts the weekend... YAYAYA!!!! CHUFF CHUFF |
Posted By: Ken Majors
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 1:09pm
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The condescending attitude, disrespectful tone and matter of fact nature of TKDs post is what set me off.
I joined the military out of high school because I did not get the "free ride" scholarship to play soccer and/or lacrosse that I was hoping for. After a brief tour of the country trying out for various MISL teams and losing a spot to a 40 year old German guy named Mueller, I joined the Army to find out what I might be good for other than sports. My dad was career Army and retired a Master Sargeant (E8). Maybe I felt a sense of duty, and wanted to push myself. I really don't remember. I do remember my Mom telling me that I could go to college if I wanted, and I had been accepted to several universities, the largest being the University of Maryland. I enlisted, went to medic school, airborne school and Ranger school. Accomplishing that made me feel very proud and a sense of duty, honor and Country filled me. It has instilled a life long sense of pride in me and I know that there is nothing in this life that I cannot overcome, physically or mentally. I have lost plenty of friends to "training accidents", and enemy fire. I read alot of garbage about how soldiers give their lives so that people like TKD can spew their filth, protecting their "freedoms" and such. I don't believe that. I believe that they died because they were in the wrong place, wrong time, protecting each other, and they were doing their job. It doesn't make them stupid, or dumb. It makes them hard working, professionals that died a horrible death, away from home, and miserable. It is offensive to me that someone, without so much as batting an eye can say in a public forum, that they died because they were dumb, or that they were in combat because they were dumb. I hold 2 degrees from institutions of higher learning. One in education, and one in nursing. I don't consider myself stupid or dumb. The military was the best education I have ever received. I trained in emergency medical treatment techniques that were cutting edge and effective. On real patients, in real situations. I have delivered babies, pulled teeth, sewn ears back on, inserted tracheostomy tubes, chest tubes, and prescribed meds. All before my 20th birthday. Quite a few of the emergency room docs I work with today were trained by the military. 2 of them were Marine grunts (enlisted). Probably the best docs that I know, and apparently they are dumb. Maybe they were unable to go to college by any other means. Dr. Mark Smith is walking around with pieces of NVA mortar in the back of his legs and scored perfect on the MCAT while addicted to morphine (Uncle Sam provided that monkey, he provided the back to carry it). Not a dumb man. Pat Tillman graduated Summa Cum Laude from ASU with a degree in marketing, and chose to be an enlisted man. He joined with his brother, and they chose the contract that would test their mettle. They were good at what they did, they were professional soldiers. I really don't know how anyone would classify them as dumb or stupid. Yet, TKD agrees with the Senator from Massachusetts. I cannot possibly begin to understand the advanced cognitive abilities of such reasoning, but,I am just a dumb enlisted guy with no other options in life. So what would I know? Rangers Lead the Way. Sua Sponte ------------- RLTW |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 1:18pm
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This is getting ridiculous. TKD was not saying that everybody in the military is dumb. Instead, he was making the rather obvious point that if you are not educated you will have fewer choices in life. One of the choices that will most likely be available to you is the military. The military is often an employer of last resort. That does not mean that any given person in the military chose the military as a last resort - it simply means that the uneducated are often forced by circumstance into the military, where that is a choice that they might otherwise not have made. There isn't much controversial about that statement - I don't know why people are getting their fatigues in a bunch over it. |
Posted By: sporx
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 1:30pm
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OK Cleark Kent, we get it that you know so much about politics.
just do us a favor and just go munch.  -------------
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 1:39pm
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Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 1:42pm
The more and more I read replies to WHALE's posts, the more I agree with the wrong conclusion you people are coming to. It's simply amazing how stupid some of you are being about this. -------------
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Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 1:43pm
They are coming out of the wood-works now.
If this is not chip-on-shoulder I do not know what is Honestly now. How was this condescending and disrespectful?
Boo-Hoo. Same old "face down in the muck" speech and attempted guilt trip because I did not join the armed forces. Watch me cry. I will say it again, for about the 70th time this thread. Heck I will even make the font bigger. The military is a last ditch for people not smart enough to get into college who do not want to work low paying jobs. Not everyone in the armed forces is like that, but it does exist in large numbers. That is what I am saying, that is what John Kerry was saying. If my "filth spewing" upsets you, tough. -------------
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Posted By: thebuickguy
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 1:47pm
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Well if you think about it their is some uderlying truth to what he said if your not in college you will not get a decent job now adays in america we have hardly any old fashion middle class factory jobs anymore so whats left for the high school grad well theirs flipping burgers for minium wage or the military not saying that military personal are dumb but they just cant get a job in america thats worth it
------------- Tippmann A-5 SAW stock E grip J&J Ceramic APEX tip Spyder AMG J&J Ceramic Tippmann 68 Carbine J&J Ceramic APEX tip Tippmann Prolite |
Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 1:50pm
Let's delve further into this, shall we? Not smart enough does not equate to stupid. It means not smart enough to graduate with enough honors or distinctions to get a scholarship, be it to any college, or simply the college of their choice. There is no condescension in that part of the post, and there is truth behind it. -------------
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Posted By: RicWhic414
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 1:59pm
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All I know is John Kerry is now hated by most people in the US. And I wouldn't say that the armed services are a last ditch for dump people, I'm not sure what would be a last ditch but I know if I was uneducated I still wouldn't go into the armed services. ------------- Tuesday starts the weekend... YAYAYA!!!! CHUFF CHUFF |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 2:44pm
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Wow...Just...Wow... -------------
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Posted By: FlimFlam
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 2:54pm
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Like a moth to a flame... Maybe it's time we look at the original quote again:
I don't see a lot of room for interpretation here. "Make an effort to be smart?" Wasn't aware that it was an effort based trait... So what am I missing here? Regardless of the "intended" joke or meaning, seems to me that Kerry said exactly what he meant to say. In fact, he held a press conference shortly after to "defend" his commentary, challenging that Bush should be the one to apologize. Of my 10 closest friends, 7 of them served in the military. I did not, I was in college for the first Gulf War while four of them were dumping sand out of of their underwear and hoping that Iraqi artillery shells didn't land on their heads during the night. One was busy getting no sleep between SCUD missile attacks in Riyhad. One was getting his ass shot at in Panama while I was in 7th grade. These guys made the most of their educations, they studied hard, they did their homework, and "made an effort to be smart", whatever the hell that means. Circumstances found each of them in the military for different reasons, none of which fit the criteria of the above quote. Of the 7 I know, 5 of them now have educations from institutions of higher learning. The two that do not are family men with good jobs, wives, kids, mortgage, the whole American dream. Far from those who " didn't make the most of their educations, those who didn't study hard, those who didn't do their homework, or "make an effort to be smart". Does the military employ these kinds of folks? Sure. So does every other company in the world. In contrast to Senator Kerry's elitist remark, the military is not primarily made up of those who could do no better. And that's what we're talking about here. What Senator Kerry said. And, as far is THIS guy is concerned, his remarks were pretty crystal clear. And when TKD blanketly says "I agree with what he said" he was agreeing with what many of us took to be a condescending, elitist, uniformed, ugly remark about our men and women in uniform. Regardless of what TKD THOUGHT he was agreeing with, or INTENDED to agree with, from my standpoint, he came off as elitist as John Kerry. And Clark, your insistence that anyone hearing an insult in Kerry's remark is somehow mentally deficient, is just baffling. Apparently it was bad enough to get the Democratic handlers to get Kerry to http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061101/pl_nm/usa_elections_kerry_dc - apologize...
Agreed. Do you have any real thoughts to add to this, or are you just going to coattail on the REAL debaters in this thread? -------------
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Posted By: RicWhic414
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 2:57pm
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how is that wow you cant not say anything bad about the armed services in this country and not be hated... so wow
------------- Tuesday starts the weekend... YAYAYA!!!! CHUFF CHUFF |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 2:58pm
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Flim, those people you mentioned, good for them. They are not the ones Kerry is talking about. Feel good story, but not much to do with the quote at hand. Once again, he was not saying all people in the military are dumb. He just did not do it. To think that he did takes some hardcore blinders. -------------
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Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 3:00pm
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What grade do you learn about double negatives? I think it was somewhere around 4th-5th. -------------
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Posted By: Predatorr
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 3:03pm
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Example- my journalism teacher talked about how the journalists in iraq were having just as much to worry about and were feeling the same things as solderis. I flipped out, there's no way you can compare a journalist to a soldier, there just isn't. Prime example being that the enemy isn't specifically targeting journalists embedded in a unit. If you'd like to argue that they're just as big a target, then give them the same gear as our soldiers. |
Posted By: RicWhic414
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 3:04pm
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sorry TKD i was just typing fast but good job looking passed what I said and just going to the grammar because I forgot this is a English class
------------- Tuesday starts the weekend... YAYAYA!!!! CHUFF CHUFF |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 3:05pm
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Past* -------------
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Posted By: Predatorr
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 3:06pm
zing |
Posted By: FlimFlam
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 3:09pm
I'm sorry, I don't follow. Let me quote it again, in case you missed it the first time:
That's an either or quote there. Please show me where the third option is in there... And don't play me this crap about what he meant, or intended. There's plenty of debate on this forum about other misrepresented, misinterpreted, taken out of context and outright false quotes of political leaders on both sides. His quote was elitist, condescending, and just plain ugly. It's what I expect from most politicians, right or left. -------------
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Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 3:11pm
I'll coattail, because everything that has needed to have been said has been said. I was expressing my feelings on how people like the person I quoted can feel the way they do after explanation after explanation has been given to them. -------------
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Posted By: RicWhic414
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 3:11pm
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good god your so smart Anyways john kerry completely screwed the democratic party. I can see the momentum changing hands, all he had to do was shut his mouth ------------- Tuesday starts the weekend... YAYAYA!!!! CHUFF CHUFF |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 3:17pm
I will let you show me where the words 'either' and 'or' were used in the quote first.
Right. The other debate using misrepresented and misinterpreted statements suck as well. "But others do it" = Not a good excuse. You know good and well what he intended, but would rather not admidt to it. -------------
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 3:20pm
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I just had a conversation with a friend of mine where this came up. His theory - there are some things that you are just not allowed to be critical about, not even a little bit. These include, but are not limited to: - 9/11 Firefighters - Rosa Parks - The US military His reason for why this is? He theorizes that there is just enough truth in those criticisms to make us cringe. Society doesn't like to think that it is disproportionately sending its poor and uneducated off to die, so instead we make unassailable heroes out of them. Kind of a defense mechanism. Interesting theory, I think. |
Posted By: RicWhic414
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 3:23pm
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he said he was making a joke at the pres. i dont know if any of you have heard what he said but it doesnt really sound like a joke at the pres. to me... I think he should re-run for pres.
------------- Tuesday starts the weekend... YAYAYA!!!! CHUFF CHUFF |