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For the ’cocker boys

Printed From: Tippmann Paintball
Category: Tippmann Paintball
Forum Name: Paintball Ideas / News From Tippmann
Forum Description: Got a new idea or a way to improve something?
URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=162106
Printed Date: 18 July 2025 at 2:01am
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Topic: For the ’cocker boys
Posted By: tallen702
Subject: For the ’cocker boys
Date Posted: 26 November 2006 at 3:55pm
Gentlemen,

Now that WGP has pretty much screwed the pooch with our beloved autocockers, what do you say we see if we can't brain storm some new ideas to upgrade the heck out of the sucker to keep it up to speed with the rest of the paintball community.

The E-Blade was little more than a step up from the old F-5 upgrade, and the use of a solenoid to actuate a mechanical hammer and take the place of the 3-way isn't very inventive when it comes to the whole scheme of things.

The challenge I issue is this, let's put our heads together and see if we can't come up with the basic needs of a high-end tournament marker while keeping the basis of the auto-cocker intact. Keep in mind while brainstorming that the things that set the 'cocker apart from other markers are AT LEAST the following:

1)Separate pneumatically operated cocking system (no blow back/blow forward)
2)Closed Bolt Design
3)Back-block actuation to load/chamber a new round
4)Straight-pull stacked-bolt design for easy cleaning
5)Free Floating hammer (not statically linked to the bolt)
6)Easily modified and personalized

I'm not objecting to any ideas that would change one or two of these items (for example, a solenoid actuated valve would be far more efficient than a hammer) but we need to try and keep the marker an "Autococker"

Let's see what we've got!

-Tallen

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Replies:
Posted By: Yomillio
Date Posted: 26 November 2006 at 4:57pm

Well, first, I think we need to realize what the "goal" of a tourney marker is and how we can do it now on an Autococker.  The typical tourney marker is compact, light-weight, fast, and accurate.  We already have accuracy on our side, so I think the only way to improve it would be using lighter-weight parts for less kick.  Anyways, lighter parts would need to be used anyway for speed (bolt, rear block, cocking rod, any mass that has to be moved and stopped quickly).  Now, as im new to cockers, its not like I can tell you about every inch of every part, but im pretty sure i understand the basic operation.  So, lets see what we can do for those remaining aspects of a truly high end, tournament killer marker.

Compact:

Theres really nothing we can do here, except going half-block.  Now,I personally dont like this, but its all we can really do.  However, Autococker also has a slight advantage here in the fact that the barrel is set back from the front of the marker.  No big deal, as this starts where other markers usually complely end anyhow.

Light-weight:

Well, for upgrades avalible now, theres a lot we can do to make it lighter.  Once again, the half block body appears.  However, I am going to address the rest of this segment as if we are dealing with a standard body, with flush back block.  For a barrel, the best in light weight is obviously Stiffi.  Go with 12 inches, its long enough here.  If they have it in 10", i think thats usable too, but its debatable as to if theres any effect on accuracy.  As I and the majority believe, there is no difference.  Moving on, Stiffi also produces a carbon fiber bolt, which is still lighter than delron and supposedly dosent need lubrication.  CCM has a delron back block, probably one of the lightest avalible.  And, of course, lightweight parts such as these help with cycle rates.

Speed:

This isnt my area.  I havent yet explored the relam of electro-cockers, so I dont know whats best and what wont work with what.  Of course, we would move on to some kind of electric frame for maximum speed.  This is where someone else takes over .  For now, ill leave all that debating to you guys.  I will, however, move on to updrading front pneumatics.  The 3-way the base of a good cocker setup.  Belsales seems to make a good one, but everything they make is quality work.  Now, lets move on to a ram.Now, I dont know how good this is, but Hybrid makes a half-pint ram.  It makes sence, as it is smaller, things would move along quicker, right?  I cant say its proven, but people do say its good.  For a proven ram, the Eclipse Nexus ram is very good and proven.  Throw some QEV's on that, and were moving on.  Next on the list is the LP reg.  The best is most likely the Palmers Rock.  Lets use that. 

Now, im sure theres other things that I have left gaps in, but if you guys have a completely better design of someting, I know I just outined things avalible right now in the aftermarket, with no truly innovative ideas.  Maybe when I start progressing through the relam that is Autococker, ill have some better ideas.



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Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 26 November 2006 at 5:54pm
Im confused as to what your saying.


Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 26 November 2006 at 5:59pm
I think we could probably go even more extreme than just using a standard "mini" cocker body/block. If we swap out the standard valve and hammer and go for a low-pressure valve with solenoid actuation, then you don't actually need anything to move very far as you can regulate the FPS via the dwell setting. All you'd need to stay within the idea of a closed bolt (still using a back block) would would be enough room for the bolt to open far enough for another round to drop in. I'll see if I can't take some measurements at the house when I get off work, but I figure we can cut the length of the body down by almost half and still achieve what we'd be looking for. Don't stay static with your thoughts, feel free to "think outside the box" on this. My father is an engineer and I now have access to C&C milling equipment. If we figure things out and I get enough time to draw up a schematic, we could very possibly create a new marker here.

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Posted By: Yomillio
Date Posted: 26 November 2006 at 6:06pm

Well, I kinda have to stay static with my thoughts cause my knowledge right now is very limited



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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 26 November 2006 at 6:09pm
it's all good man!

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Posted By: Yomillio
Date Posted: 26 November 2006 at 7:22pm
Well, I suppose we can start by looking at the things I listed as well as other high end parts and seeing what exactly makes them the best of the best, and see if we can combine whats great about one with whats great about another or what we could do to make the design better.  I think we should start by machining a custom body or buying a new one and doing some modifications to it.  Maybe make it open bolt, and shave off as much metal as we can.  Also, would the whole ventui bolt face thing work with autocockers?  If it does, I say one of us picks up a Stiffi bolt and tries to make it work.  Of course, make a mock bolt first to make sure we can do it as not to ruin a $70 bolt.  Maybe when I get my cocker il take some demensions and mess around with it. ill try and figure out if its possible.  If the whole venturi thing dosent appy to cockers cause of the way it operates, Ill try and mess around with the idea of putting a ball cradle piece into a Stiffi bolt, because as far as I know the front of it is just like an open circle.  Of course, if you end up puttig eyes in it, which of course should happen, it dosent mater as much, but it still stabilizes ball flight, I think.  Less chopping and more accuracy, anyone?

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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 26 November 2006 at 8:30pm
new body is most definately a must. I think we can probably shorten the
thing to B2k length or less without it being as tall. Venturi bolts exist for
current cockers, so I don't think it would be an issue to modify/build one
for the project. As is, I just talked with my father and he'll do the 3d CAD
drawings for us gratis. There are a couple of milling companies (C&C
automated lathes) here in the DC area who will do custom work for a
nominal fee (I'd be more than happy to build a prototype) If we can work
off of current cocker dimensions, it would make it easier to get a marker
idea mass-produced as the re-tooling wouldn't be as severe to make the
bodies/parts.

I'm working out a valve/solenoid system to reduce the space needed to
fire the marker so we can shorten up the body. Keep coming with the
info!



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Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 26 November 2006 at 9:18pm
Solenoid actuated valve? Wouldnt that be like an Intimidator?

So why not just try and put an Intimidator grip frame on a cocker?


Posted By: The Guy
Date Posted: 26 November 2006 at 11:04pm
if you wanna go for less kick, how about a G10 back block/sled?

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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 27 November 2006 at 9:53am
The problem with throwing a timmy-frame on a cocker is that you would still have to account for the front-block pneumatics. Also, a Timmy has a joined stacked-bolt and hammer vs a cocker's separate system. If you use a separate pneumatic system to load and chamber another ball, you can do away with the whole ram/hammer and valve system all together and just use a solenoid to actuate the valve itself, saving space and length when it comes to the marker. Using a timmy board might be a possiblity though.

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Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 28 November 2006 at 1:09am
SHO anyone? I say figure out an easy way to manufacture a pneu-pump kit where the pneus are easily removable for stock-class play, and easily reattatched for tourny play.

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Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"



Posted By: phil_stl
Date Posted: 28 November 2006 at 1:12am
Originally posted by Monk Monk wrote:

Im confused as to what your saying.


Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 28 November 2006 at 1:17am
Me or them?

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Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"



Posted By: phil_stl
Date Posted: 28 November 2006 at 1:19am
Them,
But I don't know much about cockers anyway. So that doesn't help.

I'm trying to learn a bit were I can.  Because they seem like cool guns but just so confusing.



Posted By: Enos Shenk
Date Posted: 28 November 2006 at 10:52am
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

The problem with throwing a timmy-frame on a cocker is that you would still have to account for the front-block pneumatics.


Not that hard. Ive tinkered around with making a cocker with no mechanical 3-way linkage. Just use the front block bolt hole. Since it carries the operating pressure, use a reverse air-actuated valve so when the gun fires, the pressure in the main air chamber drops and the valve switches.


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Posted By: daniero
Date Posted: 28 November 2006 at 12:43pm
Any thoughts about electro-cockers? I would like to learn about that.


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Silver Invert Mini
Yellow 'Cocker


Posted By: Yomillio
Date Posted: 28 November 2006 at 4:06pm

Originally posted by daniero daniero wrote:

Any thoughts about electro-cockers? I would like to learn about that.

All you have to do its throw an electo trigger fame on it and poof!  You have an electro-cocker.



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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 28 November 2006 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by Yomillio Yomillio wrote:

Originally posted by daniero daniero wrote:

Any thoughts about electro-cockers? I would like to learn about that.


All you have to do its throw an electo trigger fame on it and poof! You have an electro-cocker.



Yeah, but not true electro-pneumatic! I mean, if you want to get technical

Read the prior posts, we've been talking about it a bit. I've got tomorrow off, I'm going to go ahead and do some drawings by hand and scan them on my gf's mac and put them up for some ideas so far.

-Tallen

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Posted By: WGP guy2
Date Posted: 29 November 2006 at 7:43pm
Hmm...

whatcha need is a raced, turtled, minied, MQed cocker


Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 30 November 2006 at 11:38am
yeah, but MQ valves, even broken ones, are hard to come by, and very expensive when you can get your hands on one. I'm thinking I should cut 1" off the front block and about 2" off the back for the body, and just come up with a valve/solenoid design on my own so I can keep the length down.

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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 04 December 2006 at 3:18pm
Valve Design done baby! sliding gate-valve with solenoid actuation, no hammer, no sear, no springs. Think of it as an internal ram that doesn't actually hit anything. I'm going to get the dimensions down, my dad is going to put it in CAD. The best part is, the whole assembly is less than 2.5" long. Talk about your micro-marker.

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Posted By: Yomillio
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 7:36pm

nice.

My cocker came yesterday, btw.  Thing is beautious.  Ill get some pics up eventually.



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Posted By: an94
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 11:21pm
just a thought here but I know the cockers have the barrel farther back than most guns but how about putting the barrel back even farther than they are now. to do that you would need a hollow bolt. one that wraps around the barrel.


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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 08 December 2006 at 2:09pm
The reason the barrel is able to sit so far back on a 'cocker as is, is that the bolt actually seats into the barrel (you can slide the bolt all the way down the barrel if you wish) due to the closed-bolt system. Good idea though! If you can get the barrel to thread into a minimal ammount of space, you just need enough room for a vert-feed and for the bolt to move back to load another ball in.

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Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 08 December 2006 at 4:04pm
I've got an idea that will revolutionize the 'cocker. Just a teaser. I'll work up a quick MS painting and some specs.

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Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"



Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 09 December 2006 at 12:20pm
looking forward to it!


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