Industry Momentum
Printed From: Tippmann Paintball
Category: News And Views
Forum Name: Thoughts and Opinions
Forum Description: Got something you need to say?
URL: http://www.tippmannsports.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=162346
Printed Date: 14 November 2025 at 11:16pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Industry Momentum
Posted By: tallen702
Subject: Industry Momentum
Date Posted: 04 December 2006 at 5:52pm
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Is is just me, or does it seem to others that the paintball industry as a whole as been becoming stagnant after what was a relatively short burst of ingenuity in the late 90's early 00's?
From 1980-2001, we saw the change in markers from the nelson system to the tippmann inline system, the mag blow-forward design, the re-birth of the nelson system from kingman and WGP, the adaptation of electronics to the same valve system by ICD and WDP, and finally the spool-valve of the Matrix series of markers. That's a lot of technology in markers alone for a mere 20 years. Not to mention the fact that paintballs have become more specialized to the types of environments in which the sport is played and vary according to the needs of the player. Clothing has gone from cammo and motocross gear to cammo and paintball-specific tournament uniforms. Loader technology has advanced from 10 round tubes to optical and audial sensor equiped hoppers. And the 12-gram co2 cartridge has been replaced first by bulk tanks and now by cheap and effective HPA/N2 tanks. What I saw from my four years in college alone would lead me to believe that these past 6 years would have seen far more innovations and advancement of technology based on the past trends. But much has stayed the same since I quit spending every day working with, selling, and playing paintball. Tank pressures and sizes are the same, the prices are stable. Markers still follow the same designs from 5 years ago. Either Nelson, Tippmann, or Matrix (AGD has aparently dropped off the face of the earth). Hoppers still use the same basic feeding system. And the clothing hasn't changed a whole lot. The funniest part of all of this is, the masks have actually REVERTED to older models! V-Force's wide-lense format is a throwback to the old B.E. masks. And JT pro-flex masks habe become a standard while the proteus is nowhere to be seen. The industry simply seems to have stagnated, or at least lost a lot of it's momentum. I just wonder what it will take for that momentum to pick back up again. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Replies:
Posted By: Evil Elvis
Date Posted: 04 December 2006 at 5:57pm
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I wouldnt say so, look at how Tippmanns have evolved from the Carbines to the new X-7.
Then there is the whole Propane powered Pumps. The thing is if a technology is proven and reliable why would you change it for the sake of change? Why no perfect it and have reliable guns that everyone knows that work and how to maintain and operate them? Masks have changed a lot, tallen might look retro but its a whole diferent monster. From better lenses that dont fog up to a mix of hard and soft platics to protect and encourage bounces in some areas. Stagnant would be if they would just have keep making Carbones, Spiders, Mags and Cockers. ------------- 
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Posted By: Santa Chewp
Date Posted: 04 December 2006 at 6:06pm
More or less, yeah ------------- [IMG]http://i9.tinypic.com/8f3jo8l.jpg"> |
tallen702 wrote:Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 04 December 2006 at 6:13pm
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i think it just seems like this i don't think we will be able to measure how fast we are moving today until a few years down the road. and though the c3 was a big innovation, i really doubt it will catch on, i can see other propane markers being made but... meh ------------- <just say no to unnecessarily sexualized sigs> |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 04 December 2006 at 6:19pm
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This is an open ended discussion everyone, so please, chime in! No right or wrong answers. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: Boss_DJ
Date Posted: 04 December 2006 at 6:44pm
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it needs to be cheaper
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Posted By: Squishey
Date Posted: 04 December 2006 at 6:47pm
i agree, an angel is not worth 1,500$ when it doesnt shoot any farther or more accurate then my tippmann, faster but thats about it. ------------- Canadians do it on top. 
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Posted By: Enos Shenk
Date Posted: 04 December 2006 at 6:49pm
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Business gets in the way. Innovation is discouraged when some money-hungry grabasses like smart parts will sue you and shut you down over some overblown patent claim. Compare it to any other business venture. Look at video games, for the longest time games innovated, you had new styles of games like FPS and others appearing. You had cool unique packaging and manuals and other goodies. Now video games are so dominated by the big-name companies, and all they do is publish the safe bet. Yet Another WW2 Shooter. Yet Another Halo Game. Yet Another Frigging Sims Expansion. Its the same with the paintball industry. Most companies just roll with the safe bet. Yet Another Stacked Tube Spyder Clone. Yet Another Timmy Clone. etc etc ad nauseum. ------------- 
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Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 04 December 2006 at 6:58pm
Seriously. I know they say that if you want a cheaper sport play football or something, but I see the fact that, while prices of nearly every other technology have fallen in comparison to the quality and sophistication of the product, paintball products haven't really as probably one of the biggest signs of stagnation. I realize paint is a lot cheaper than it was back in the 80's but paint prices haven't really fallen much for probably the past decade....Same with markers and other equipment, especially on the higher end. Paintball as a sport has seen some progression, at least in the pro circuit, as I see the current Xball format and the general presentation of televised tournament paintball as probably about ready for mainstream, if in need of a little polishing. The technology...not so much. -------------  |
Posted By: SSOK
Date Posted: 04 December 2006 at 8:05pm
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If Field prices go down, Paintball will rise. I cant tell you how many people quit paintball due to field prices. That, and super chromiums w/o big als tent. ------------- 
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Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 04 December 2006 at 10:21pm
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I personally fell off paintball a lot because the only field within 50 miles closed because they weren't making money.....It's pretty hard for these small field operators to keep their prices too low. I keep telling my girlfriend that I'm going to get some free government money from Mathew Lasko and open a new field down here. I've got so many awesome ideas, and with a huge section of the state not being serviced....I think I could do well.... ------------- |
Posted By: CarbineKid
Date Posted: 04 December 2006 at 10:54pm
| I would say that the major problem may be the success of the paintball industry. The major object of the industry was to make the guns shoot more balls, and at a higher rate. They went for a 12 gram Co2 pump pistol to an electro monster that fires 20+ bps. The problem is where to go from here. The Propane pump is a cool idea, but one that's 15 years too late. The gun just doesn't have the firepower desired by most players(go ahead flame away). The paintball industry will have to re invent the wheel to make the next major leap in evolution of paintball. |
Posted By: Razgriz Ghost
Date Posted: 04 December 2006 at 10:56pm
| the paint itself needs to be cheaper. I can afford the gun once now I need money for paint. |
Posted By: Kristofer
Date Posted: 04 December 2006 at 10:59pm
| I have a proteus mask. bummer. i guess i am out of style. |
Posted By: GI JOES SON
Date Posted: 04 December 2006 at 11:06pm
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depends on the field you go to. everywhere ive been to on long island paint is always 100 a case, field paint only. yet you go to some places in SC,NC, PA, etc, paint is a lot cheaper. as for the industry, i think all the new angels and other electros that make one minor change in their markers every year and claim it almighty against the last years model is retarted, and it looks like tippmann is starting with it too with the custom pro and x7....you could easily take a 98c/m or a5 and upgrade it....they could probably find a way to make that fire selection on the x7 an upgrade |
Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 04 December 2006 at 11:14pm
How long did you have to wait to use that in a sentence? |
Posted By: ShortyBP
Date Posted: 04 December 2006 at 11:16pm
I agree with Enos. While I'm sure there are many other reasons... this is what I believe contributed most to any degree of stagnation. Big names got bigger. Little guys got stomped. Even if someone small did manage to develop something new and did not face the threat of lawsuit... would they be able to compete with a less innovative product pushed on by the big guys? Paintball is a volume business... you need to sell A LOT of something in order to make a profit. For a small company, competing with the marketing/hype ability of a big company is almost impossible, no matter how good the product is. A lot of small companies that were indeed innovative went under, simply because the volume sales weren't there. Made worse by companies that weren't diversified and tended to stick with one specific market. So if you're intent on being innovative and creating something great... if you cannot foresee selling umpty-thousand of them in a relatively short timespan before the next something great comes along, it isn't worth the time, effort, expense and legal headaches. |
Posted By: Monk
Date Posted: 04 December 2006 at 11:20pm
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Seriously. http://www.vintagerex.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?action=database - http://www.vintagerex.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?action=database Look at all the companies back then. Now try and think of as many marker manufactures that are still in business, or recently founded. |
Posted By: ShortyBP
Date Posted: 04 December 2006 at 11:21pm
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And the cost hasn't been stagnant at all.
Look at how much an electronic marker will cost you these days compared to the days of old. Someone could outfit themselves with a real nice setup for a fraction of what it would cost you for something similar only a few years ago. Paint costs have definitely gone down in the past decade. As for FIELD paint, different story... fields need to keep up with the rising costs of overhead. |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 04 December 2006 at 11:51pm
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yeah, paint has definately dropped. Rec-Sport used to cost us $35/case
back in '00. Now Pev's Sells it for almost that much. Field paint will always be expensive. I DO like what Jim does out at Pev's At AG though. It's FPO but only for rentals. If you own your stuff, you can buy it anywhere and bring it on in. The fact that DYE and JT are in bed together certainly doesn't help matters on the peripherals, and the fact that DYE is producing their own markers now makes Youngblood and friends a serious roadblock to new innovations. I honestly think that the Matrix will be the last new marker system we'll see for some time. The fact that the guys who built the industry are all bowing out or being forced out by shareholders doesn't help matter either. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: 636andy636.
Date Posted: 04 December 2006 at 11:59pm
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Paintball has changed so much. Now a days it seems to be about the bling and having the newest most useless thing ever. "its a whole one ounce lighter !!!!!!!" IE speed feeds. 30 bps loaders for guns that are limited to 15bps and random stuff to cut .5 seconds on your reloading time. I also do not like the new generation of players who have no clue about the old school guns and have no appreciation for them. They look at them and go "thats useless, its a pump" or "wow what a old hunk of junk" Paintball fads and stuff piss me off. "HK army" "Agg" stuff and calling black markers "ninja" and gray guns "stormtrooper" /end random rant ------------- [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/anthonymartinez/402cdjo-1.gif"> |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 12:11am
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Paintball itself is a fad. It is slowly fading out. Pity. ------------- 
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Posted By: brihard
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 1:19am
Nah, it'll stick around long term. It's fun, simply put. There will always be paintball to some degree or another. ------------- "Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation." -FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 1:22am
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Long live rec ball! ------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell" 
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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 11:00am
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Paintball is most definately NOT a fad. The fact that it has grown from a few thousand players per year in the early 80's to over 10 million per year in the US alone goes to show that it is continuing to grow. When I worked in the industry, it was a 2 Billion Dollar a year industry. Now it grosses over 5 Billion Dollars a year worldwide. Costs have been coming down (slowly but surely) and the only thing that can account for that kind of revenue increase is an increase in players. The reason you don't see as many fields opening up every year, or you see old fields close down, is due to the fact that competition has become so fierce that people are being bought out on a trust/monopoly scale that hasn't been seen since the early days of telecom and the old steel/oil barons. Pev's out of Virginia and Maryland, for example actually had to go through government agencies to insure that Mike Peverel wasn't going to hold a monopoly on paintball retail outlets on the east coast when he bought out Cousin's Paintball in NY.
I think what the industry as a whole needs to continue it's forward momentum is an influx of young and creative mechanical engineers with a desire to create something completely new. The issue is, that while the industry is a 5 Billion Dollar a year industry, there is little money in being an engineer outside of the large corporations. One of the guys who manages a store around here was offered 30K/year to become head machinist at Lapco a few years back. He makes more per year standing behind a counter and chatting with people. The money is on the retail end of things in the industry, not the manufacturing, but that's always the case with any industry. I don't think we'll see any great leaps forward until the EU and Asian countries who play the sport start producing goods themselves. Right now the US manufacturers hold a monopoly on the market. WDP and Eclipse being the only exception. Until some German, Italian, Frenchman, or Russian decides to start building equipment and competing on an international level with the likes of DYE, JT, or Tippmann. We won't see the costs start to come down quickly or any great leaps forward in innovation. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 12:00pm
What is with you and all the anti-paintball sentiment? I would love to hear your explanation on how paintball is a fad and isn't a sport....That is if you really believe it, and aren't just trying to get a forum full of 'ballers riled up.... ------------- |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 12:03pm
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It is not a sport. It relies far to heavy on the equipment to be a sport. It is not near as structured enough. Fun hobby game, sure, sport, no. Maybe the fad thing is wrong, no idea. It does seem to have dropped off a wee-bit, it definitely is not in its peak of interest any longer. -------------
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Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 12:11pm
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What sport doesn't rely on equipment? Besides, in the most pro games now days, no one pays attention to the equipment because everyone is using pretty much the same stuff. Everyone is always looking to upgrade their stuff to get that next boost in performance, but you see that in any sport. Rather it's shoes, goggles, pads, or hoppers. equipment is a large factor any almost any modern sport. What do you mean by "not structured enough"? Not sure I'm gettin you here. Xball is broken down into four quarters, has a structured points system, a set penalty system.....the fields vary...but I don't think that degrades the sport any.... ------------- |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 12:13pm
Au Contraire! http://www.warpig.com/forums/mailroom.shtml - Source Since the mid 1990s when the Sporting Goods Manufacturer's Association started tracking paintball in their SuperStudy of Sports Participation, they have recorded growth every year except 2004. The Southeastern US is significant in the paintball market and was hit by several major hurricanes that year. In 2005, however the base of paintball players again grew. The 2005 numbers (the most recent available) show more paintball players than baseball players in the US (just barely, but it's more) and paintball is well ahead of other alternative sports such as Snowboarding and surfing. Well that is possible, I haven't seen anything to suggest that any of the decent sized (i.e. more than 4 or 5 employees) manufacturing companies in the sport are facing losses. I have seen stores and fields come and go since the 80s, but that usually stems not so much from the market as a poor business plan, or an entire lack of a business plan - many field and store owners start their business because they like the game, which does not mean that they know how to plan, operate and advertise a profitable business. I would definitely love to see what you've been tracking that is showing an increase in losses and business closures in recent years, as that is contrary to what I have been seeing in the industry. See you on the field, -Bill Mills - Technical Editor, WARPIG.com Numbers don't lie my friend, one thing I have learned over the years from moderating and participating in internet forums is to do your research and find substantiating numbers to back up what you say. No offense meant, but in this case, you're dead wrong. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 12:36pm
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Another nice http://www.warpig.com/paintball/articles/news/sgma05/060721sgma.shtml - article with lots of numbers from the SGMA.
BTW, paintball is only 1 million participants behind skateboarding for 2005 (which posted losses for the 2005 census) which are the most recent numbers published. We won't have 2006 numbers until next year (which only makes sense after all). Paintball also has more participants than Baseball and Tackle Football respectively. Depending on where you live, you may not see as much action as the rest of us. Paintball tends to be a west-coast and southern US sport with large pockets of players in Long Island NY, New Jersey, Washington DC and Northern VA, and the Mid Hudson Valley of upstate NY. Outside of these areas and any other area of less than 500,000 in population, it's tougher to find fields and shops as the sport's popularity relies heavily on people being introduced to it by their friends or associates. Here are the SGMA numbers for total players per year in the United states from the start of tracking in 1998 until now. 5,923,000 participants in 1998 6,364,000 participants in 1999 7,121,000 participants in 2000 7,678,000 participants in 2001 8,679,000 participants in 2002 9,835,000 participants in 2003 9,600,000 participants in 2004 10,357,000 participants in 2005 As for the sport vs game debate. Paintball depends every bit as much on the person's physical strength, endurace, and training. There's a reason that little snot-nosed kids who's moms buy them angels (and thank god they do, otherwise the technology would still be in the stone age) don't take down as many players as those with experience, better physical strength and endurance, and tactical and strategical knowledge. I don't know if you've ever watched or participated in a paintball tournament, but strategy and communications play a more important role than the marker you're shooting does. The most important person on a paintball team is the back-man as he controls everyone else's movements, just like a point guard in basketball, or a quarterback in football, he calls the shots, observes the whole field, and disseminates the information amongst the players. A tournament team without a good back-player is worthless. Even Scenario teams cooperate on the sports-team level. The OMHW garnered fame and a reputation for being unbeatable not because of the individual players, but do to their teamwork and coordination. They readily accepted the fact that speedball players are effective out of their element and could be used as a blitzkrieg-style vanguard upon the start of the scenario. The had excellent communication between all units, able to shift men and materiel to where they were needed, the same as a football team, hockey team, or any other team sport. To say that paintball is only a game is the mark of someone who only has a passing interest in what is a sport in it's own right. Recognized all over the world in over 110 countries and shown on a variety of sports televison networks and is in consideration to become an olympic sport, paintall is exactly that; a sport. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: Enos Shenk
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 5:10pm
Very well said. Alot of people dont appreciate the time involved in manufacturing even a simple product. My safety-stops on County take about 10 minutes apiece to turn down on a manual lathe. That doesnt sound like much, but when you have an order for 20 or 30 of the things, that gets to be alot of time standing in front of a machine sweating. Not to mention the time involved in printing packaging, bagging them up, packaging for shipping, etc. I have a design for a cocker ram with integrated exhaust valves thats no bigger than a stock ram. But it would take me easily 2 or 3 hours of labor APIECE to manufacture. I dont have a CNC lathe, and it would cost an arm and a leg to contract out to a manufacturer. Money I dont have for a business venture that probably wouldnt be noticed because Im no good at marketing. Hell look at the carbine rails I made for County. Those took combined about 45 minutes per unit to run even on a CNC machine. I could probably shave that time down if I redid the code, but it would still be near half an hour. Granted, most of that time is sitting there reading a book while the program runs, but you still have to be there to change out tooling and refixture the part. -------------
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Posted By: Razgriz Ghost
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 5:14pm
| Paintball isn't on it's way out anytime soon. When they invent respawn points in rl then it'll be over. I had a dream that I was playing a fps for real last night. That would get me out of paintball so fast. |
Posted By: 636andy636.
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 5:28pm
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Posted By: carl_the_sniper
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 5:36pm
------------- <just say no to unnecessarily sexualized sigs> |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 6:01pm
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Nope. Paintball is not a sport. Too much variation and lack of structure. Now, if you want to say that Airball is a sport, that could possibly be argued, but "paintball," nope. Sorry. -------------
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Posted By: Razgriz Ghost
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 6:23pm
| Paintball isn't a sport, it's an extreme! sport. but seriously it's not a sport anymore than bowling is a sport, is there a social bond like there is with football? Is it considered a pasttime like baseball? no, there are more to sports than being huge franchises and raking in pleanty of money. Hell if that where the rule then rollar skating would be a sport. |
Posted By: Rambino
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 6:28pm
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Can I throw in an unsolicited "what?" to the whole idea of "extreme sports"? I mean, seriously - the term is goofy anyway, but when you include "sports" like in-line skating (which is about as "extreme" as jogging) and artificial wall-climbing, the credibility of the whole concept is completely destroyed. ------------- [IMG]http://i38.tinypic.com/aag8s8.jpg"> |
Posted By: Razgriz Ghost
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 6:29pm
| It was sarcasm anyway Rambino. |
Posted By: Rambino
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 6:30pm
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Not you - the WARPIG article and every other goofy article about "extreme sports". ------------- [IMG]http://i38.tinypic.com/aag8s8.jpg"> |
Posted By: Razgriz Ghost
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 6:33pm
| Oh well then I agree, not that I didn't but you know. |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 7:57pm
Really? Try telling that to all of 325 active College Teams in the NCPA: Alaska Pacific University Alfred University Allegheny College Arizona Arizona State University Arkansas State University Assumption College Augustana College Ave Maria University Baker College of Owosso Baldwin Wallace College Ball State University Baruch College Bates College Benedictine College Berry College Binghamton University Binghamton University (SUNY) Black Hawk College Bowling Green State University Bradley University Brookhaven College Butler University California Maritime Academy California State University Chico California State University San Marcos California State University, Fullerton California State University, Northridge Carleton University Carnegie Mellon University Case Western Reserve University Cedarville University Centenary College Central College Central Connecticut State University Central Michigan University Central Washington University Chattanooga State Clemson University Coker College Colby College Columbia College Chicago Culinary Institute of America Davidson College DePaul University DeVry university Dickinson College Doane College Drake University Drexel University Dunwoody College of Technology East Stroudsburg University of Pennsylvania Eastern Connecticut State University Eastern Kentucky University Eastern Michigan University Eastern Washington University Eastman School of Music Elmira College Embry Riddle (Prescott) Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University Erie Community College Ferris State University Florida Atlantic University Florida Gulf Coast University Florida Institute of Technology Florida International University Florida State University Fort Hays State University Fort Lewis College Frederick Community College Gannon University Genesee Community College George Brown College George Washington University Georgia Southern University Georgia State University Georgia Tech Graceland University Grand Valley State University Grove City College Hampshire College Harding University Hartwick college Hawaii Pacific University Hawkeye Community College Henderson State University Hillsborough Community College Hobart College Humboldt State University Illinois Central College Illinois State University Illinois Wesleyan University Imperial Valley Junior College Indiana State University Indiana University of Pennsylvania International College Iowa State University Jacksonville State University James Madison University Jefferson Community College Johns Hopkins University Juniata College Kansas State University Kansas State University at Salina Keene State College Kettering University Kutztown University LAke Superior State University Lake Erie College LeTourneau University Lehigh University Liberty University Louisiana State University Louisiana Tech University Maine Maritime Academy Manhattan College Manhattan Community College Marist College Marquette University Marshall University Massachusetts Maritime Academy Master's College Mercer University Mesa Community College Messiah College Methodist College Miami University of Ohio Michigan State University Michigan Technological University Middle Tennessee State University Middlesex county college Millersville University of Pennsylvania Milwaukee School Of Engineering Minnesota State University, Mankato Mississippi State University Montclair State University Mount Saint Marys University Murray State University NASA Universty of West Virginia NYIT Napa Valley College New College of Florida New Hampshire Technical Institute New York University North Carolina State University North Dakota State University North Idaho College Northern Arizona University Northern Illinois University Northwest Missouri State University Norwell High School Norwich University Noth Central College Ohio Northern University Ohio State University Ohio University Ohio University Chillicothe Oklahoma City Community College Oklahoma State University Old Dominion University Oregon Institute of Technology (OIT) Oregon State Ouachita Baptist University Pace University Palmer College of Chiropractic Pasadena City College Penn State University Pittsburg State University PolyTechnic University Pueblo Community College Purdue University Queens University of Charlotte Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute Rhode Island College Riverside Community College Rochester Institute of Technology Rose-Hulman Rowan University Rowan University Rutgers University SUNY ALBANY SUNY Institute of Technology SUNY Maritime SUNY Oswego SUNY Plattsburgh State University SUNY Potsdam Saginaw Valley State University Saint Anselm College Salve Regina University Sam Houston State University Santa Ana College Santa Clara University Schoolcraft College Shippensburg University South Dakota State University South Delta Senior Secondary South Texas Community College Southampton College Southeast Missouri State University Southern Illinois University Carbondale Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville Southern Methodist University Southern Polytechnic State University Springfield College St. Cloud State University St. John's University St. Mary's University of Minnesota - SMU KIDS St. Petersburg College St. Thomas University Stevens Institute of Technology Suffolk Community College Sul Ross State University Syracuse University Temple University Tennessee Tech Univeristy Texas A&M International University Texas A&M University Texas A&M at Galveston Texas Christian University Texas State University Texas Tech University The Citadel The University of Iowa Truman State University Truman State University Tulane University Union College United States Air Force Academy United States Merchant Marine Academy United States Military Academy United States Naval Academy Unity College Univeristy of Central Missouri University Of British Columbia University Of Wisconsin- Milwaukee University at Buffalo University of Advancing Technology University of Arkansas University of California San Diego University of California, Davis University of California, Irvine University of Central Florida University of Cincinnati University of Connecticut University of Dayton University of Dubuque University of Florida University of Georgia University of Hartford University of Hawaii Manoa University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign University of Kansas University of Kentucky University of Maine University of Maine at Machias University of Maryland, Baltimore County University of Maryland, College Park University of Massachusetts Amherst University of Memphis University of Michigan-Dearborn University of Minnesota - Twin Cities University of Minnesota-Duluth University of Mississippi University of Missouri University of Missouri-Kansas City University of Missouri-Rolla University of Montana Western University of Nebraska-Lincoln University of Nebraska-Omaha University of Nevada - Las Vegas University of Nevada, Reno University of New Orleans University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill University of North Carolina at Charlotte University of North Dakota University of North Texas University of Oklahoma University of Oregon University of Pennsylvania University of Pittsburgh University of Portland University of Portsmouth (UK) University of Rhode Island University of San Francisco University of Southern California University of Southern Mississippi University of Tennessee University of Texas Pan American University of Texas at Austin University of Texas at Brownsville University of Texas at Dallas University of Texas at San Antonio University of Toledo University of Utah University of Washington University of West Georgia University of Wisconsin - Eau Claire University of Wisconsin - Madison University of Wisconsin - Manitowoc University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee University of Wisconsin - Platteville University of Wisconsin - Stevens Point University of Wisconsin - Stout University of Wisconsin - Whitewater University of Wisconsin of Greenbay Universtiy of Northern Iowa Ursinus College Utah State University Valparaiso University Vanderbilt University Vermont Technical College Villanova University Virginia Commonwealth University Virginia Military Institute Virginia Tech Wake Forest University Walla Walla College West Virginia University Western Michigan University Western New England College Western New Mexico University Western Wyoming Community College Westwood College Anaheim Wheaton college MA Winona State University I know I bonded really well with the 6 other guys on the team I captained for my school. I figure the rest of the teams we played did as well as they were all quite good and extremely well-tuned to each other's moves. Oh, and btw, tournaments aren't just airball. They're woods, speed, hyper, sup'air, UA, and every other course you can think of. Looks like you have a big road trip to be able to explain to all of them that they aren't playing a sport. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: Razgriz Ghost
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 8:00pm
| Yeah but you fail, see I said that there's more to a sport than being a huge franchise etc. Would you consider pool a sport? I'm sure there are pleanty of colleges with pool halls on campus. I'm not saying I don't love paintball I do with a passion, but a sport come on get real. |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 8:46pm
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You aren't even reading this are you? Those are TEAMS, not clubs, but TEAMS that are part of the collegiate sports program, the same as NCAA Baseball, Football, Soccer, or any other sport. They travel all over the country for tournaments against the other schools in the NCPA (National Collegiate Paintball Association, sounds a bit like the National College Atheletics Association doesn't it?) and fight it out for ranking, just like the NCAA, and wind up going to finals, just like teams do. Have you ever even SEEN a paintball tournament let alone PLAYED in one?
As for your definition of Sports, I find it lacking. According to Merriam Webster, a SPORT is the following: Main Entry: sport Function: noun 1 a : a source of diversion : RECREATION b : sexual play c (1) : physical activity engaged in for pleasure (2) : a particular activity (as an athletic game) so engaged in. According to Wikipedia: A sport is an activity requiring physical ability, physical fitness, or technique and strategy in which usually, but not always, involves competition between two or more people. Under those definitions and any others, it is indeed a sport. Just because something does or does not fit into your paradigm doesn't mean that it isn't what it is. I don't think that naming myself after a fictional character from a NAMCO game and using the load screen as my sig is cool, doesn't mean that it isn't. Just because you can't fit your head around the fact that paintball in every sense of the term is a sport doesn't mean that it isn't. To use the old addage, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and $#!ts like a duck, it's probably a duck." Failure is a measure of success by the way, you can't fail when citing factual evidence. YOU can fail to see the evidence for what it is, but I can't fail by merely putting it up there. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 9:09pm
That is the same style of argument people use to prove that snipers exist in the game of paintball. You are just as wrong as they are. Paintball is not a sport, plain and simple. -------------
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Posted By: *Stealth*
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 9:22pm
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For the sake of arguement, how do you define a sport Whale? ------------- |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 9:34pm
1) Structured play with little variable, such as there are defined rules structures everyone recognizes. 2) A score or number system that can clearly show a winner, aka, not up to a judge. -------------
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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 9:46pm
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Tournament Play has both.
However, your argument is flawed. Judges exist in every game. Umpires call fair or foul on fly balls for hits that get knocked into the bleachers in baseball. Judges make the call as to whether the ball is on the 1 yard line or if it broke the plane of the endzone. EVERY sporting event's outcome is based SOLEY on the judge and the decisions that that judge or team of judges make. How many championship games in EVERY sport have come down to a judge's call? Almost every single one. How often are games blamed on "poor officiating"? every single week. Your argument is thus, that any "game" that relies upon a judge's decisions to determine a winner is not a sport. Thus, there are no true sports. Back to the drawingboard my friend. ____EDIT_____ God I love the scientific method. The only way to prove something is to be unable to disprove it. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 10:22pm
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That is just wrong. Football/Baseball/Hockey/Basketball, what have you, does not rely on a judge. Yes, refs may have to make a call when it is close, but there is a structured way to score. The point of the second part was to rule out things like Cheerleading, Figure Skating, etc, where it comes down to ONLY what a judge says. What you just said trying to connect any sport to an officials call is just, well, stupid. Care to try again? -------------
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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 10:37pm
Ahhh, now we get into the name calling. If you want to go that route buddy, I'd say you'd do better dropping the chocolate covered angst bar and try playing a few sports for starters. 
Judges calls determine the outcome of all games. They have the power to give or deny a score under your "structured" scoring method. Merely assigning points to an action doesn't make something a sport. However, let us allow your theory to stand as is and compare it to paintball. In NPPL PSP and NCPA regulation play, there are points awarded for each man eliminated and each man left standing per team at the end of the game. Points are awarded for first-pull on the flag, points are also awarded for a succesful "capture" of the flag. I believe it was 2 points for every player your team eliminated, 1 point for every player you still had in at the end of the match, 5 points for first pull on the flag, and 15 points for sucessfuly capturing the flag when I captained the CIA team in the NCPA. The judges were merely there to ensure that no person continued to play on with a hit, and that an appropriate penalty was assesed for anyone playing on with an obvious hit (gogged, hand, etc) and that no players crossed the boundry tape (in which case they were eliminated) or that the other standardized rules governing play were not being broken. Therefore, by your very definition, the victor being determined by the points awarded each team through the course of play and the judges only having to make calls when necessary makes paintball a sport. 
Keep trying my man. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 10:46pm
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Can I offer a compromise definition? A sport might be an activity where the outcome is determined by objectively verifiable criteria - points scored, seconds spent, feet achieved, punches landed - and the purpose of the referee is to determine whether those criteria have been met, but not to simply determine which contestant is "better". This would make football, track, TKD, and paintball sports, and cheerleading, skateboarding, and figureskating would be out. |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 10:52pm
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As for your solution Clark, Tae Kwon Do probably won't accept it as it forces him to admit that paintball is indeed a sport.
As for this:
Here's a http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/worstcalls/010730.html - nice list of where judges make the calls that determine the game: ______________________________________ 1. Denkinger calls Orta safe In arguably the most controversial call in World Series history, Don Denkinger calls the Royals' Jorge Orta safe at first base in the ninth inning of Game 6 of the 1985 Series against the Cardinals. TV replays show that St. Louis pitcher Todd Worrell had clearly beaten Orta to the bag, but Denkinger's call sets the stage for a two-run Royals rally in a critical 2-1 victory. Kansas City goes on to win the Series in seven games. 2. Colorado's fifth down Colorado comes from behind to beat Missouri 33-31 in 1990, scoring the game-winning touchdown on "fifth down." Officials fail to count a down when the Buffs spike the ball to stop the clock and mistakenly give CU five cracks at the end zone. Colorado's score comes on the final play of the game. 3. Soviets get extra time in 1972 Olympic hoops The U.S. men's basketball team suffers its first loss in Olympic history when officials put time back on the clock twice in the final seconds, allowing the Soviet Union to score a basket at the buzzer and win the gold medal with a 50-49 victory in the final of the 1972 Games. 4. Jeffrey Maier assists Jeter home run The Yankees beat the Orioles 5-4 in Game 1 of the 1996 ALCS when 12-year-old fan Jeffrey Maier reaches over the fence and catches Derek Jeter's flyball to right before Baltimore right fielder Tony Tarasco can make a play. Umpire Rich Garcia, who has run out to the right-field wall, fails to call fan interference on the play and rules the ball a game-tying homer. The Yanks go on to win the game on Bernie Williams' homer in the 11th. 5. Brett Hull's skate in the crease In a play that will live in Buffalo infamy, Brett Hull gives the Stars the Stanley Cup when he beats Dominik Hasek for the series-clinching goal in the third overtime of Game 6 of the 1999 finals. Of course, every Sabres fan in the universe has been screaming ever since about how Hull's skate was in the crease before the puck, but the refs fail to make the call or ask for a replay. Before the next season, the NHL will change the "skate-in-the-crease" rule in reaction to the play. 6. Maradona's "Hand of God" In what Argentinians refer to as the "Hand of God" goal, Diego Maradona rises up between two defenders and punches the ball into the goal to help Argentina beat England in a 1986 World Cup quarterfinal. The referee doesn't notice the hand ball, and the goal stands. Maradona gives the play its name later when he says the goal was scored "partly by the hand of God and partly by the head of Maradona." 7. Thanksgiving Day coin flip flap The easiest call in any football game is the coin flip, right? Well, for referee Phil Luckett, the coin flip is a nightmare during a 1999 Thanksgiving Day game between the Steelers and Lions. As the game goes to overtime, Steelers captain Jerome Bettis calls "tails," but Luckett hears "heads." The Lions win the toss and go on to win the game. The NFL will change its procedures for the coin flip after the **edited** on national television. 8. Mike Renfro ruled out of bounds Officials rule Houston wide receiver Mike Renfro is out of the end zone on a fantastic catch at Pittsburgh in the 1980 AFC championship game. Replays show Renfro was in-bounds, but officials rule the pass incomplete, and the Steelers go on to a 27-13 victory that sends them to their fourth Super Bowl. 9. Eric Gregg's wide strike zone Umpire Eric Gregg rings up Fred McGriff to end Game 5 of the 1997 NLCS on a pitch from Livan Hernandez that appears to be a foot outside. The Marlins beat the Braves in the series and go on to win the World Series. 10. Charles White's TD and fumble in 1979 Rose Bowl USC beats Michigan 17-10 in the 1979 Rose Bowl, thanks to a controversial ruling on Charles White's 3-yard TD run in the second quarter. Just as he is entering the end zone, White is hit hard and loses the ball. Wolverine linebacker Jerry Meter comes up with an apparent fumble recovery on the 1-yard line. However, the line judge determines that White had crossed the goal line before losing control of the ball and signals for the touchdown -- the score proves to be the difference for the Trojans. Dishonorable mentions Jerry Rice is ruled down before fumbling against the Packers in a 1999 NFC wild-card game. Replays show the play was indeed a fumble, and the 49ers go on to win the game on Steve Young's dramatic TD pass to Terrell Owens as time expired. Michael Jordan pushes Bryon Russell on the final shot of his career in Game 6 of the 1998 Finals, which lifts the Bulls over the Jazz for their sixth NBA championship. Bert Emanuel's apparent first-down catch late in the 2000 NFC championship game is ruled to have hit the ground -- although replays show the ball was clearly in Emanuel's grasp when it touched the turf. Emanuel's Bucs lose 11-6 to the Rams. With the Patriots up by three points in final two minutes, referee Ben Dreith calls roughing the passer on New England's Sugar Bear Hamilton after he hits Oakland QB Ken Stabler in 1976 NFL playoffs. Raiders go on to score a touchdown in the final minute to win 21-17, and go on to win the Super Bowl. _____________________________________________ I'm sure there are plenty more, but seeing as how ESPN has compiled this list and they are most certainly the authority when it comes to sports, well..... ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 10:54pm
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Cannot see where I called you a name. Ideology, possibly. But the fat joke, that just shows your lacking of a genuine argument. So keep them coming, it makes you sound really nice. You are also the very first person to use a fat joke on the forum. I think you should get a gold star.
Nope. Simply not true. A judge CAN determine the outcome, but does not have to. Anyway, I am not against possibly calling Airball a sport, in the future, when it comes around. Paintball as the general term, nope. Too many variables. People can play paintball in dozens of manners and ways. Dozens of field variations, dozens of rule changes, general methods of play. I have a question. Do you feel like paintball is somehow lessened by not having the "sport" title? -------------
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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 11:22pm
If that isn't name calling, well, then we disagree on more than one thing. Calling into question one's intellectual validity usually denotes a slight. No, paintball isn't diminished by not being called a sport. See the defining factor for me is that a pick-up game, no matter what game is being played, is simply that, a game. An OFFICIATED game is when something becomes a sport. A bunch of guys playing touch or even tackle football without all the trappings to make it official simply makes it a bunch of guys rolling around in the mud for the hell of it in my mind. The same goes for the pickup soccer matches that I sometimes enjoy at the park near my house in DC. Those pick-up games don't count as a sport. I think Scenario paintball, with defined objectives, points, and values to completed goals, however, does deserve the title of sport, however little it sticks. Though I think most scenario players could give a damn. The thing is, the face being put forward to the world now, isn't the woodsball pick-up games of yesteryear. They are the bright, flashy, easily televised and mass marketable games played on a 150'x75' field with all types of barriers. The face that is being put forward is the SPORTS end of paintball. It used to be that the magazines were filled with nothing but images of the latest Wayne Dollack game, or Clymber, TWC or even the WRG in Skirmish. Just look at the pro-shops around the country. They don't care that the '98's A5's MR2's and other scenario and mil-sim markers sit out on the floor. They're relegated to the dark recesses of most of the pro-shops in my area. The flashy speedball markers are the ones that are proudly displayed for everyone to see. The face shown to the world is the sport of paintball. Where points matter and there are solid systems to figure out the standings. This is why I feel that Paintball as a general term gets the label "sport". Woodsballers are rapidly loosing the majority these days. Heck, I have to schedule time to even set foot on a hypberball or UA field (and there's 5 of them at the field) but if I want to play my favorite woods course.... go right ahead.... P.S. the winkie face on my last post meant I was just giving you @$%@%$. One of the greatest back players to ever play in the NPPL makes you look like Kate Moss. Now, before we side-track the original point of this topic. Anyone care to add their $.02 about the direction and stagnation or lack there of, of the paintball industry? ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: Razgriz Ghost
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 11:27pm
| It's not a sport let it go. Did you not understand what I said Tallen? A sport to me needs to have a following of sorts that is substaintial. If you walk up to someone and ask them what football is they'll tell you straight up, but I bet I can walk 50 feet from my house find someone and ask them what paintball is and they'd tell me they've never heard of one. End of disscusion. I'll even give you a new compairison calling paintball a sport is like calling darts a sport, pleanty of leagues and teams but no one cares what happens in darts. |
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 11:30pm
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... That is by far the lamest "definition" of sports I've heard in my life. ------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
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Posted By: Razgriz Ghost
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 11:34pm
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Really? When was the last time you considered darts a sport? |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 11:36pm
Bold so you will understand. I was calling that idea stupid, not you personally. Hope the fat joke makes you feel good though. Anyway, wading through the muck of your post, I actually think I agree with you. If you put the game of paintball on a standard field with structured rules, it can become a sport. Which is why I think Airball has the potential. "Paintball" in general has too many variables. It can be played with a dozen variations to rules and gameplay and setting. How often do you see people go out to play baseball, and use 6 bases, and give the third and second basemen a bat? It has a basic structure to it. As to other sports. Paintball does not. Airball, possibly. Once again, why do you feel the need to try to force a square peg into a round hole? Why do you NEED paintball to be a sport? Why can't it stay in the realm of what it really is? A game. -------------
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Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 05 December 2006 at 11:51pm
Let's start with a definition, straight out of Random House Webster's College Dictionary that I'm holding. No cheap internet stuff here: Sport (funky pronounciation symbols), n., adj., v., sport-ed, sport-ing. -n. 1. an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature. 2. such activities collectively. 3. diversion; recreation. There are 21 definitions, so I'm not gonna post them all. I'm having honest difficulty trying to determine where you gathered a "sport" has to be all over the news and embedded in peoples' heads. It sounds like Smart Parts has gotten to you if anything. On top of those definitions, an official sport, at least to me, needs to have sponsorships, tournaments where money is a prize (some people make their living with these), and personal dignity/honor is worth competing for. By the official definition plus what I consider official, paintball (or at least official speedball) is indeed a sport. As well as darts. And pool, bowling, golf, etc. ------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
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Posted By: Razgriz Ghost
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 8:47am
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De, why is it so important that you defend it as a sport? I love paintball, sport or not. I feel however that it isn't really a sport any more than darts or pool or bowling, are. |
Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 12:09pm
You were never in style with that. ------------- 
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Posted By: Gatyr
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 12:25pm
So can nearly every other "sport" in existence, it is just categorized as something different. Flag football is still football, stick ball is practically baseball, etc. X-ball and Super Seven are paintball, which you just agreed is much easier to call a sport. Woodsball and scenario games are also called paintball. But that has little to do with the discussion at hand. Let's see if we can compromise here. Participants in the NPPL, PSP, or other recognized leagues = participants in a sport(and in effect, athletes?). Participants in a scenario game, or rec-ball = participants in a hobby or game. /win -------------
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Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 12:25pm
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This is what bugged me:
The display of the "I know all and I am right, so everyone else is wrong" mentality really gets to me. I don't actually care whether or not you consider paintball a sport. What bugged me is you came in with an inaccurate and misinformed definition, and tried to "command" the thread, if you will. ------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
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Posted By: Tolgak
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 12:28pm
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I don't care what it is, it's fun. I don't agree with TKD's argument. Many sports have different well known forms. The standard for the sports can be singled out to their most basic rules. Soccer, you handle the ball with your feet, try to get it into or to bounce off of some goal. Paintball you use a gun, try to eliminate the other team. From the basic rules of any activity you can pull out dozens of games. Many of those games are played competitively on a small scale. The thing about paintball is, it introduces outside forms of manipulating the game. Nothing someone does in hockey or football or soccer etc... requires anything but human power to used the items in the game. Paintball pretty much always relies on compressed gas (non-human action) to work and therefore nullifies its status as a sport. /thread ------------- 
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Posted By: Razgriz Ghost
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 12:33pm
To me, meaning in my opinion, take it or leave it. Yeah it came off arrogant I'll give you that, but he was so intent on defending it's position as a sport that I gave him an overdose of my mind sorry for that. As for misinformed definition it was a definition from a veiwpoint of opinion. Like I said would you consider darts a sport? I'm sure there are those that do but not the majority which IMO makes it a recreational activity. |
Posted By: RicWhic414
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 12:34pm
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Dictionary.com Sport-an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc. I would say Paintball can be put into that ------------- Tuesday starts the weekend... YAYAYA!!!! CHUFF CHUFF |
Posted By: DeTrevni
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 12:46pm
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Well, I could argue this for a while, but there's no point. In retrospect, it is kinda dumb, and I don't think anyone's opinions are going to change, so let's just call it a difference of opinion. ------------- Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
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Posted By: Razgriz Ghost
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 12:49pm
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Right. |
Posted By: *Stealth*
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 1:26pm
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Hockey has jumped around in its rules and regulations in the past few years.
As well, Hockey differs greatly in play, between NHL and Olympic play. Yet we wouldn't dare say that it is not a sport. (For the sake of arguement) ------------- |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 1:53pm
So you agree there are snipers in paintball then, right? Because the dictionary definition of a sniper fits in....Right? -------------
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Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 1:57pm
I can kinda agree on that. Flag football is still structured as football, with only slight variations, suck as yanking a flag and not tackling. There is not a HUGE chasm of difference there. The difference between Airball/Xball play, on a set small field with a flag push as the point, is a huge step away from playing a scenario game on 30 acres with "missions" and the such. There is just too much variation within it. I think Airball/Xball has the potential. I don't quite think it is there yet, but it has the potential. -------------
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Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 2:02pm
Umm...Wow...Not a very good analogy at all. The difference between NHL and Olympic hockey. The rink is bigger in Olympic style. There is touch back icing. More passing and less checking. It is still the same game, played on a similar shaped rink, on the same surface, with the same equipment, and the same goal-scoring points awarded, and played for the same amount of time. The changes in rules in the NHL does not equal a different game completely. Epic fail of an argument. -------------
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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 2:04pm
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Actually, based on the definitive wording of Merriam Webster and Oxford
Dictionaries, yeah, there are snipers in paintball. Are there long-range expert marksmen with a spotter who sit in position for days and days waiting for one kill? No, but that is only the modern day westernized idealization of what a sniper is. There are US troops being hit and killed in Iraq by what the FPS boys would call "campers" but the fact of the matter is, they are snipers. Combatants working by themselves or in tangent with the sole intent of firing upon and exposed enemy from a hiden locale. Japanese, American, Russian, and German snipers weren't the "assasin" that we've all been taught by the media and books are the only "real" snipers back in WWII. They were lone gunmen that went out to cause confusion and fear in the enemie's ranks. if you can stay hidden in paintball and fire upon exposed enemy positions, then yes, you are sniping. _________edit____________ TKD and Razgriz, I don't see either of you validating your points of view either. Anytime someone comes up with a valid reason why your arguments are flawed you just say that their points are stupid or otherwise... let's see some bonafied facts to back your opinions. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 2:05pm
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So in your opinion, there are snipers in paintball?
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Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 2:07pm
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Here comes the tangent >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>as we drift away form the topic
Lions, and Tigers and Bears, OH my...Lions, and Tigers, and Bears, OH my............. ------------- 
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Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 2:12pm
Hehehe. I am not doing it on purpose. Nope. Not me. I would NEVER purposely go into a thread just to mess with people and change topic. Would not think of such a thing, OS. By the way what do you think about global warming? -------------
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Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 2:14pm
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More to the point - NOW can we finally admit that things are not going well in Iraq? And it isn't just a liberal media conspiracy to cover up how well it is really going over there? |
Posted By: Tae Kwon Do
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 2:17pm
I don't think we should let homosexuals marry. It will weaken the moral structure of America. -------------
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Posted By: Enos Shenk
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 4:38pm
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Posted By: Evil Elvis
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 4:50pm
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"When Logic fails... try changing the subject"
Swear I saw that in a fortune cookie once. Now to get back on topic, Tourney ball = Sport/ Scenario/Outlaw/ Woodsball is more a recreational activity. More a 'game' than a sport. Same as some people fish for fun and other fish in competition. Just because I like to fish for fun doesnt make the competitive fishermen any less a sportsmen. It's really doesnt matter where ever it's defined as a sport or a hobby to me it's has always been something I do to get away from work and everyday life. To Spend a few days, hours with my friends having a good time. -------------
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Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 4:53pm
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The easiest way to answer if the industry has momentum is YES. The numbers would indicate that PB is on the rise. More people played last year than any other year. I guess we'll have to see the numbers of this season next summer. Most peoples perception that the industry is on a decline is either localized or in their head. Just because it has declined in your life doesn't mean that the rest of the world thinks the way that you do. Get over yourself already...........
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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 6:27pm
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The game/sport has momentum, yes, but the industry, the materiel that
is being innovated and made, that's the question. Has innovation continued at the same rate or better than in the past? or are we seeing a stagnation of innovation all for the sake of lining pockets? What, if any, significant advances have been made by the companies that were sold to consortiums and investment groups for example? ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 6:37pm
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Easy. Manufacturing efficiencies. Today, for $300-$400, you can get a gun that is in most ways functionally equivalent to the guns that cost $1,300. The same guns that used to cost oodles to make are now coming down in price - drastically. The Ion, Wrath, Rail, etc. - this is the big boon. Are these great innovations? Absolutely not. But that will come. Right now the companies are busy taking the fat out of the process. We have been overpaying A LOT for equipment for the last couple of decades due to business inefficiencies. These are now getting shaved away by much more serious competition. Once that stabilizes, we might see more attention to innovation to differentiate. But for now, just enjoy the price ride. Look for a new gun from WDP (and others) to compete with the Rail shortly, and look for these middle-market guns to become better and better without price increases. But, separately, where I expect the next big innovation is not in the guns, but in the loader department. The Cyclone and Q-Loader have made inroads in that direction, but expect something much better fairly soon. My theory only. |
Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 7:41pm
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Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 8:31pm
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*Understands Whale's argument* *Thinks about calling it semantics* *Decides to go back on topic* Very well said in that last post Clark. I wonder why the newer innovative loading systems haven't caught on in a dramatic way though....I also wonder if there is any more headway to be made in on the air supply front.... I guess I'll withdraw my last comment too. I guess the prices have gone down, I was just comparing it to other consumer technologies such as phones and computers......Not sure it stands up there, but the comparison is a stretch. Btw, I realize that this is mainly focused on the technology of the sport, but I wonder if the sport has stagnated at all as far as pushing into the mainstream. I realize that greater public participation and (somewhat) enhanced TV coverage help on this front, but I wonder if tournament paintball will ever see as widespread acceptance and as big of a spot on the mainstream as some of the other major sports....I think it can, hell they made Nascar work, but I wonder if it ever will.... ------------- |
Posted By: Clark Kent
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 8:49pm
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The Q-Loader is too complicated, too hard to use, and too limiting. The Cyclone, on the other hand, is a smash success - if you own a Tippmann. It's main weakness is that it can't fit on just any gun. That, and the wide profile hurts in speedball, which is where the bleeding-edge money is spent. But I totally agree that an air revolution is about due. Propane might be it, or the E-Volt concept, or something else, but everybody that plays paintball knows the two things we hate most: hoppers and tanks.
I share your frustration. I was just at Home Depot to pick up a light switch the other day. One of those dealies that you wire into the wall and use to turn lights on and off. Fairly complicated piece of equipment - metal and plastic, electrical wiring, solid construction. Cost? $0.49 each. I couldn't believe it. I pay $35 for a piece of twisted metal (aka "drop forward"), and I can buy a light switch for 49 cents. Clearly paintball equipment has a long way to go, and it will never drop to the point of light switches, but we have nevertheless seen great progress.
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Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 8:56pm
| Real guns haven't changed in a very long time. I see no reason for pb guns to go much further. There good enough |
Posted By: .Ryan
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 8:57pm
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The only complication I can see with the qloader is the low capacity tubes and the refill process....doesn't seem like enough to keep a good thing down to me, especially when considering the benefits and the fact that most teams on the tournament circuit have pit crews..... ps Whatever became of the Evolt? I was excited about that.... Edit: I was just thinking though, if we kill the hopper and the tank....I wonder what that could do to the image of the sport... ------------- |
Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 9:00pm
| I go to the book store and rifle thru about 8 pb mags every month. I cannot recall 1 picture with a pro using a q loader |
Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 06 December 2006 at 9:02pm
| How about something similar to a q-loader(helical mag)with a small HPA bottle running right down the center of it with just enough gas for one whole pod at full velocity? A gun built for it to just plug right in as a foregrip would be great as well. I'm hoping for something innovative that doesn't require batteries. The cyclone seems like one of the best things yet in that area. The reworded cyclone of the X-7 seems even better to me. |
Posted By: Enos Shenk
Date Posted: 07 December 2006 at 12:36am
Its all in the manufacturing process. Light switches can be stamped, molded, and assembled completely mechanically. A drop, well, someone has to be there to load and center the CNC machine, be there in case the program crashes the machine, unload the finished part, load a new blank. Someone else has to take the machined drops and load them into the anodizing rack, dip, rinse. Someone else has to package the thing. -------------
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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 07 December 2006 at 10:04am
Exactly one of the big reasons tippmann streamlined their process to stamping and painting. You can automate the whole process and keep a quality marker with a lower price. The Soviet Union went from machining AK's to stamping them in the early 50's. (yes there are a few machined parts even in the early 50's models but the bulk is stamped) due to the lack of experienced machinists under the communist theory of education and salaries. It seems to have worked out well for them... the stamping that is... Trust me Clark, I am all about the pricing revolution we're seeing on mid-level markers. The common theme for these, however, is that they are gas hogs. I don't see it so much as streamlining the process as just re-packaging old technology. Think of it in the terms of the old laptop computers. They weren't anywhere near as powerful as the desktops that were available at the time they came out. They used older technology that had been perfected to the point of being able to make it smaller and lighter. The same thing is going on with the ion and the other mid-level markers. They are, simply put, the shockers, impulses, angels, and matrixes of three years ago packaged in a smaller, easier made body. While it affects what WAS cutting-edge technology, what does it do to push the envelope further? Not attacking your stance, I think it is valid, just asking a question. I agree with a lot of you that loaders and air sources are next up. But the markers need to become far more efficient in their usage of an air supply before we can start changing out the sources. Propane is a good idea, but if you look at it, the pump format is the only one that makes sense. You'd have to heat-sink and insulate that sucker so much to make it semi or auto that it wouldn't be worth it. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: Lightningbolt
Date Posted: 07 December 2006 at 11:37am
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How many shots per 68/4500 would you consider efficient enough? An Ion with a $12.00 QEV will shoot near a full case on 68/4500.
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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 07 December 2006 at 12:09pm
And my Autococker that I custom built over 5 years ago shoots almost 2 full cases on a 88/4500psi tank, that's no QEV btw. So, if you do that math, that's a full case on 44ci at 4500psi. Get that down to 40ci and you're talking innovation as regardless of what I were to bolt-on to my marker, it would be below operating pressure to squeeze that many shots out of a 40ci 4500psi tank. It's going to take a new valve and airflow system to do that. Consider this, the Ion's operating pressure is extremely low. 180psi according to the owner's manual. The issue is, with this low of a pressure, it takes a higher volume of air to push the ball down the barrel with sufficient force to reach a muzzle velocity of 300fps. The whole system, in-turn runs off of solenoid actuation which means that it is using even more air to operate the other moving parts. The same goes for the Matrix markers and their derivatives. While the operating pressure is extremely low, the volume of air needed to operate the marker (due to the bolt-sail operation of the bolt/valve system) can be a big drawback. Lowered operating pressure can only go so far before you actually start using more air and slow the ROF down due to the time needed to let sufficient volumes of air flow through the valve to push the ball out at sufficient speed. I think a new valve design that addresses that issue will be the first step in getting tanks smaller, lighter, and yet still get sufficient air from them. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |