When a man wantonly destroys one of the works of man, we call him a vandal. When he wantonly destroys one of the works of God, we call him a sportsman.
Joseph Wood Krutch (1893-1970)

NotDaveEllis wrote: You do realize that hunting goes all the way back to the cavemen?

Quiet Dave, Ignorance is bliss, you'll ruin the boy's day.

Tae Kwon Do wrote: NotDaveEllis wrote: You do realize that hunting goes all the way back to the cavemen? Cavemen didn't use high powered, scoped rifles.

If they had them they would have.

Tae Kwon Do wrote: Tolgak wrote: We could spend millions of dollars to build tall fences alongside each road and have tunnels going beneath the roads for deer to cross. But no one would spend millions of dollars to do that, not even PETA. Seminole County did it in their rural sectors. As did portions of the Ocala Forest. They even wrote up plans on how to make it cost effective.

Also parts of Alberta have them.

Tae Kwon Do wrote: Society advancment. It is a delicious thing.

Advanced society needs transportation, and until we learn to fly, roads are necessary.

But lets get back to hunting for the moment.

The old, yet still pertinant point was made that if the population of such animals as deer remains unchecked, then available feeding and breeding ground will become more sparse as competition for resources increases.

Killing off a number of the animals every year allows for the population to remain in check.

If an area 5 square miles is capable of feeding a deer herd of say 50 deer, if the population grows to 100, then the possibility of all of them starving to death is likely. Or, 50 of them can be hunted, the process of which is governmed by regulations and laws.

what people don't understand is that all hunters aren't bucktoothed rednecks out there for kicks.

But you're going to say "But we're the ones who minimalized their available habitat in the FIRST place, see, we ARE evil!"

Perhaps, and if you want to bulldoze your house so the deer herd has more space to breed, I doubt anyone will stop you.

Do we backtrack on the evolutionary and progressive scale to cater to the deer?

Tae, you're right, but there are plenty of legitimate hunters (the vast, overwhelming majority) who either eat the meat that they harvest, or donate it to charitable ogranizations who process it for consumption by the less fortunate. The handful of morons who don't, are in violation of state and local laws, and are criminals. Do people who steal cars represent everyone who drives? Do people who kill others represent everyone who owns a firearm or a knife? Why let a sample of miscreants represent all of us who hunt legally and legitimately?

I also cannot stand development personally. My area is coming under serious attack by contractors from NYC who are buying up huge plots of land, bullzoding and burning everything, and building 3 million dollar spec homes.

Theres no protesting it, because its all legal, and they're the ones with the money.

Have humans screwed up? Of course. No doubt about it, but by the same token, how do you check the evolution of society? How can you put your hands up in the air and say, "No more building"

Fences and underground tunnels are great for some areas, but it would not be feasable, practical or even affordable for an area like mine, or others like me. I live in catskill park in NY, and ANYWHERE is a likely deer crossing spot. Theres a sign on my road "Deer crossing, next 5 miles" which gives you an idea just how rural we are back here.

They're a great idea, but not suitable as even a practical solution in some places.

Tae Kwon Do wrote: I tend to agree with what you said. However, most everyone I know my age around here who hunts do not use all the meat. I am aware it is against the law, but who enforces it?

Game Wardens, or Conservation Officers, have duties that range from Law Enforcement duties, such as ensuring that licensing requirements are met by hunters, fishermen, and trappers. Detailed investigations are common to solve wildlife crimes. Officers use DNA, ballistic, fingerprint, and any other comparative evidence to prosecute criminals that illegally kill wildlife. Officers also can assist with Wildlife Management duties such as helicopter and fixed-wing airplane surveys to count elk, deer, antelope and other game animals. Officers assist landowners in finding solutions to wildlife damage. Officers teach hunter education classes and do other programs to teach children and the public, the importance of wildlife management and habitat conservation.

This information is tooken from wikipedia.

Silent wrote: Why?

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLF,GGLF:1969-53,GGLF:en&q=define%3a+tooken - http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8 &rls=GGLF,GGLF:1969-53,GGLF:en&q=define%3a+tooken

bjelder wrote: even in our primacy, the fact that we are 'hunters' is a common misconception. we are gatherers. we gather the scraps from other animals kills. hunter only originated when we made tools to kill other animals. we as humans are able to survive without meat (i.e, vegetarians) and can get protein from nuts and other natural sources. bottom line is people hunt to make themselves feel superior to animals. and to fufill this need to be "real men" and provide for their families and so forth. when in reality all we're doing is killing for the sake of killing, and using the fact that we'll eat it to justify our essentially murderous actions.

That's a load of total BS my friend. I live in Texas, so I'm surrounded my hunters at all times. Hunting has more to do with getting out and being a part of the natural process. Everything you eat has been killed by something-why not do it yourself with some skill? Cattle are mass herded and mass killed in cages, no sport or skill in that. Do you eat hamburgers? That animal's dead man.

The hunters around here have huge respect for the animals they hunt, I've never seen any slobbering bucktoothed maniacs like you are describing. And to say that people hunt to make themselves feell like real men? That shows how incredibly ignorant of the subject you are.

BTW-for those of you that think it takes no skill to kill an animal with a high powered rifle, you've obviously never tried to make a hundred yard shot with no rest for your rifle. Most people go several hunts before they actually hit the first deer they shoot at.

I'm really interested in these "the animals were here first" comments.

What would you have us do, since we were the 'last page of the phone book?

Our ability to adapt, evolve and make life better for outselves cannot be neglected as an indication of our complex brain, and higher order of functions.

With these abilities, how do we justify devolving in order to grant a few more animals some breeding ground?

As things evolved and mammals took over the planet from reptiles, how come the mammals didn't take a look back and say "woah, the lizards were here first, lets give them back their space"?

The earth continues to evolve and will continue to do so until its resources are tapped, and its population dies out, leaving room for something else to come along.

Scientific progress, and social progress cannot be halted or reversed, regardless, its the nature of evolution. Man evolves from apes (if thats your belief) taking over that which was once ruled by inferior beings.

Or, if its your pleasure, when God created man, he was granted dominion over all animals and plants on this earth. 

Either way, it works out that Humans are biologically superior beings. Should we cramp the scientific gifts that we've been granted either by divinity or by evolution to save a couple of salmon or give a deer back its field?

There is no way that we can live up to our natural capacity, and have all of natures beasts thriving completely happy and bountiful.

Animals were becoming extinct long before Man came along. It was the natural process. Now that man IS in the picture, its no different, its still the natural process.

Deer will die, either at our hands via car or gun, they'll starve, or they'll die out on their own.

Eventually, there'll be no more deer.

Eventually, there'll be no more humans.

brihard wrote: If I eat what I kill I'll get booted from the army.

Why? It leaves the battlefield much less of a mess.

In fact, such practices should be grounds for leniency in murder trials, since its less wasteful.

Silent wrote: Interresting point Reb. I disagree though. I think we shouldn't disturb the wildlife. Their's so much poo we have today we could live without. Like television, people stare infront of it for hours. I still agree that it's ok to hunt but only if you are ethical about it like do a clean kill and eat the meat.

Then turn off your TV, throw your cell phone out the window, and walk to school in the morning.

Get rid of all of this 'poo we could live without'

Start the revolution.

I'll wait.

Silent wrote: I don't have a cellphone, I hardly watch television. But I have to take the bus or it will take me like 2 hours to walk to school

'hardly watching' television, makes you a 'watcher'

Its like someone who smokes socially saying they're a 'non smoker'

My point is, that you say we 'can live without them'

I say, that our society has evolved (albeit negatively) to depend on these things that have been responsible for the denuding of natural habitats. Can we physically survive without them? Sure. But the world we live in has become so focused on commodities, that we'd collapse if such things were outlawed in the name of saving mother nature.

wait......COULD we live without them? lets say the government banns all things detrimental to the environment, lets give back the animals their habitats....

there goes the commodities market. There goes the automobile industry, there goes the economy, there goes the almighty dollar. People can't earn, people can't eat. People die.

We have, in a vague sense, become dependant on our luxuries.  What you 'can live without' is what other people 'cant live without' for one reason or another.

Silent wrote: This brings us back to our subject. How we may eat you ask? By hunting and fishing.

Or by farming, or domesticating animals for food, or, as things evolve, be scientifically engineering our food for health and output reasons.

Stating your opinion and calling the discussion finished doesn't fly.

Besides, I'm having all kinds of fun playing D/A on this one.

Sweet merciful FSM, how long are you guys going to feed the troll?

Silent wrote: Reb Cpl wrote: Stating your opinion and calling the discussion finished doesn't fly. Besides, I'm having all kinds of fun playing D/A on this one. What is D/A?

Dumb/Ass...

Stealth, you may have misunderstood me. I meant exactly what you stated. Deer know when there's a crapload of people in the woods. It's not that they have a calender and go hide the night before opening day. I could be much more sucessful hunting deer out of season. Shots with a camera and shots with a rifle or bow are quite different. If you're aim with the camera is off you crop it. If you aim with a projectile is off you either miss it or have a nasty mess to deal with.

Why people think a scoped rifle is unfair advatage over an animal that can smell me farther away that I can see him and hear the fart I thought was an SBD is beyond me. If a deer knows I'm there and that I'm trying to kill it, the odds are vastly in it's favor.

*Stealth* wrote: Silent wrote: stratoaxe wrote: BTW-for those of you that think it takes no skill to kill an animal with a high powered rifle, you've obviously never tried to make a hundred yard shot with no rest for your rifle. Most people go several hunts before they actually hit the first deer they shoot at. I went a year to get my first deer. I sat in a tree stand maybe 50-60 times around 3-4 hours each time before I spotted my first deer. Even when I did get my first deer, I used a crossbow so it didnt die right their. I had to go track it. People don't realise the endurance, patience and skill a hunter needs to harvest an animal. If you wait in a tree stand 50-60 times for 3-4 hours, you're an idiot. I as a photographer can go out in a morning and see over eight deer in an hour. More so, I can stalk with in bow range of them. Hunters MAKE it harder on themselves and than use the arguement of "PEOPLE DONT KNOW HOW HARD IT IS". C'mon, just because you know how to shoot a bow, does not mean you have ANY skill other than, shooting a bow. You sat in a tree, and waited for a unsuspecting deer to come with in range. Then you shot it. You then watched it jump away, heard it crashing through the forest... and walked in the general direction you saw it go, following the blood trail that it left. My god, your abilities exceed all that is imaginable.

You're not taking into account that deer populations vary from place to place...where you live, you might can see a deer within an hour of walking into a field.

Where I live-you can wait all day and never a see a deer. On top of that, deer are less scared of humans in less populated areas.

And yes, I firmly believe deer know when the season starts. After the same season passes decade after decade, deer know when groups of people are going to migrate into the area, and they avoid that area. Just my opinion, but as someone who as hunted with my father since I was old enough to walk, I've seen this.

And nobody in this thread has stated that they've got some leet skillz they use in hunting-you pretty well summed it up. But it's certainly alot easier to type it up on a forum than to put it into practice-tracking a deer can go on for hours, I've followed trails for a full day trying to find deer that the local hunters would wound, trust me it wears you out.

My only fault with the logic of these arguments is that they  rely on the idea that somehow the right of man to exist is less than that of a deer. While I'm certain the origional poster is nothing more than a troll, the idea is out there that man is somehow totally disconnected from nature, that nature is good and any alteration of it by man is evil.

Our survival tool is our brain. Building a road or a building or a powerplant is just as "natural" as a bird building a nest. Only if we  deplete the recources we depend on do we have a problem.

stratoaxe wrote: You're not taking into account that deer populations vary from place to place...where you live, you might can see a deer within an hour of walking into a field. Where I live-you can wait all day and never a see a deer.

Good thing you are there to thin out the population...

I guess it beats "it's coming right for us!!!!"

hahaha funny story one year we went up there and I had punctured my eardrum a month earlier. It hadn't fully healed and when the F-16 blew overhead at full afterburner it blew my eardrum back open. They are very sweet to watch, you ever go see the Blue Angels in Traverse City? Those guys are leet. Wait a few years though, selfridge should be getting A-10's and the noises should stop.

Clark Kent wrote: stratoaxe wrote: You're not taking into account that deer populations vary from place to place...where you live, you might can see a deer within an hour of walking into a field. Where I live-you can wait all day and never a see a deer. Good thing you are there to thin out the population... I guess it beats "it's coming right for us!!!!"

Nice sarcasm...but you pulled my quote out of context. We have a huge abundance of deer where I live...but deer smell and hear you long before you see them. My point was that different types of deer in different areas react differently to the change in seasons.

And *stealth*-I have alot of experience with deer outside of hunting. I don't rent a hunting property-I live on one. I have several deer that come straight into my front yard, I've even shot guns with them less than a hundred yards away, they usually ignore you. When the weather changes and the season starts, no deer. It's not because they've been "hunted out", there are plenty. I can't drive down my road without having to stop for anywhere between three to twenty deer almost every morning before work. And shortly after the season ends, it's right back to that.

*Stealth* wrote: And your convinced thats because deer know when hunting season starts?

I didn't say they look at each other and go, "Dude, hunting season, let's split". I'm saying that I believe they've adjusted their movements around the times where the human activity peaks, which is deer season. Whatever it is, I can state for a fact that I see very few deer in deer season, and shortly after the season's over, I see large groups of them.

*Stealth* wrote: Where do the deer go that you cant find them?

To visit Big Gay Al, of course.

This is really turning pointless...

They avoid people. They move at night instead of the day. They move to less inhabited regions...I really don't know where they go, I'm stating an observation that I've noticed, I haven't made any scientific claims, or claimed any groundbreaking discoveries. I'm saying that I see less deer in season than off season. Period. And my original point still stands regardless of my local deer movement patterns, that deer in different areas react differently to human presence. So to say that someone is an idiot if it takes them a few hours to find a deer when it takes you half that time is not taking alot of factors into consideration.

*Stealth* wrote: Why kind of deer do you hunt? As well, The deer are still there, you skilled hunters... who posses the infinate knowledge of deerdom should be able to find them. Methinks you dont see them, because you're actualy looking for them. Out of season, walk around with a bow, and look for deer you can get a good shot at. Betcha you dont see as many. Try it.

Here we go again...I never called myself a skilled hunter, and I certainly never claimed "infinate" knowledge of "deerdom".  I was stating a simple observation, and I personally think this issue has been run as far into the ground as it can possibly go. I stated from the very start that it was my opinion, and I hold to that from years of living surrounded by deer, not from some ridiculous notion that hunting gives me some form of amazing skill.

*Stealth* wrote: stratoaxe wrote: *Stealth* wrote: Why kind of deer do you hunt? As well, The deer are still there, you skilled hunters... who posses the infinate knowledge of deerdom should be able to find them. Methinks you dont see them, because you're actualy looking for them. Out of season, walk around with a bow, and look for deer you can get a good shot at. Betcha you dont see as many. Try it. not from some ridiculous notion that hunting gives me some form of amazing skill. And that is the sum of what I wanted to hear.

I never alleged that to begin with-I said that hunting is far more involved than, "Run up on deer. Aim gun. Shoot." But I never said that hunting in and of itself made you a more skilled person. Hunting using various skills to attain one goal-the same as paintball, art, what have you.

And as I stated this notion that deer hunting is a mindless redneck task is ignorant, and the idea that hunters are doing something evil to the deer population hypocrisy-every form of meat you ingest has (hopefully) been a part of an animal that was killed, and in alot less respectful manner than a hunter killing a deer, elk, pig, or whatever.

I feel like the hostility that's generated towards hunters is out of ignorance, the same hostility that's generated towards gun owners. It's something that I'm growing tired of-just because I enjoy hunting and shooting doesn't make me a redneck, or some form of egotistical self-absorbed mountain-man wannabe.  I don't have some mental definciency that makes me want to slaughter hordes of animals, I actually enjoy the taste of venison, and I enjoy the hunt, and I'd say I probably speak for most of the hunters on here when I say this view of murdering, ignorant rednecks is complete BS.