Squishey wrote: yup, i have been playing for 3 years, and now the only hits that bother me are fingers, top of head, and nutters. its really not that bad.

Really, I dont feel em much anymore anywhere else but where he described.

it still hurts alot

you just learn to concentrate on the game not the pain.

i used to call myself out all the time, even if it didn't break

carl_the_sniper wrote: i used to call myself out all the time, even if it didn't break

lol ya same here...now tho i can deal with it enough to not chicken out. heck, sometimes i even stay in if it splatters. im sure im not the only one to admit to it

i play a straight game man

i have honestly never cheated

Hey I still play. Scenario and Tourny.

Im looking forward to Blanding this Feb and then again in May.

As your shot more, it hurts less, but your still gonna feel a sting.

carl_the_sniper wrote: it still hurts alot you just learn to concentrate on the game not the pain. i used to call myself out all the time, even if it didn't break

yup, speaking of calling yourself out, I play with a bunch of my lil bro's friends, and say if there's 2 left and you get 1 of em out  bout 5 sec's later he'll call himself out, its kinda funny but yet still annoying

Styro Folme wrote: usafpilot07 wrote: Styro Folme wrote: when i played tournies, i couldn't feel the hits...  unless i got bunkered...in which, i had a paintball rip my shirt...  i think they where shooting a little hot.  however, i have never cheated.  if i catch someone cheating, i will make the rest of their day miserable.  Haha, I love that stupid vigilante attitude on the field.  Let someone try and dole out their own punishment on me, it will be war.  And you don't want to play dirty with me, because that is probably the only thing that pisses me off concerning paintball.  If I seriously know that someone is TRYING to HURT me, they better hope to God that they stay in the game longer than I do...* *I am in no way trying to sound like a badass... There's just no real way of explaining how I feel about people trying to take the "law" into their own hands without a little bit of e-badass leaking in. As for the cheating thing, Gatyr is better about explaining it. i'm mostly talking about playing with friends...  in which case, i have no problem bonus balling them.  however, if some tourny guy doesn't call himself out with an obvious hit, i will say something about it to the ref.  although i don't beleive in hunting for people, if i get the opportunity, i might land a bonus ball on him .  the only reason i got out of paintball is because i'm tired of how people accept cheating as "part of the game".  Last time i asked someone why they cheat they simply said "i only wipe if they get lucky"...  which would completely throw off the whole appeal of the game.  The main fun of the game is never knowing just how something is going to turn out...  and including luck as part of the game.  I can kinda see wiping in major tournies....  but on the rec ball field...  that's low.

Ya i agree with what u mean by being "part of paintball". I mean, even in the video game greg hastings, there is the ability to cheat, and its easy to do also which makes cheating seem like something that should totally be happening on the real field

the pain has never bothered me.

I wear a vest and gloves and almost never feel any pain.  It's not a protective vest or anything, but it at least gives me another layer over my shirt.  I did forget to wear a hat a few weeks ago, though, and got shot twice, in the exact same spot, just over my visor right above my forehead.  I'm getting a migraine just thinking about it.  Then, the next week, I forgot it again and got shot in the exact same spot again!  I think I'm going to buy a hat with a bullseye on it.

usafpilot07 wrote: Styro Folme wrote: when i played tournies, i couldn't feel the hits...  unless i got bunkered...in which, i had a paintball rip my shirt...  i think they where shooting a little hot.  however, i have never cheated.  if i catch someone cheating, i will make the rest of their day miserable.  Haha, I love that stupid vigilante attitude on the field.  Let someone try and dole out their own punishment on me, it will be war.  And you don't want to play dirty with me, because that is probably the only thing that pisses me off concerning paintball.  If I seriously know that someone is TRYING to HURT me, they better hope to God that they stay in the game longer than I do...* *I am in no way trying to sound like a badass... There's just no real way of explaining how I feel about people trying to take the "law" into their own hands without a little bit of e-badass leaking in. As for the cheating thing, Gatyr is better about explaining it.

• Even if I were younger and heathier, I would not play any speedball other than the pick-up games I do now. I try to play a fair game and do not want to play in a situation where I would have to cheat to be competitive. That said, if I, or any other player decides to play at the professional level, then we have no right to complain about the overall type of play that occurs their. At certain levels of the speedball game, that is just (unfortunately) the way it is.
• If "professional" speedballers intermingle with recreational speedballers, then the "pros" should be expected to win without cheating. If they cheat to beat walk-ons, they are ruining the game for new players and must be pretty lame players themselves to have to win that way.
• When any players are on a woodsball field they should treat the game with the respect it deserves as the hallowed birthplace of paintball. Woodsball, by definition, is more of an honor game than speedball just because of the scarcity of refs and the larger terrain to be covered. I can't speak for all fields, but at places I've played, I've seen known cheaters overshot intentionally, called out by name when caught wiping or not picked by either team for a game. (Edited Note: Once, I saw an especially annoying wiper go on the field despite his team not wanting him. Word was passed that everyone on both teams could/would shoot at him and no one had to count hits from him. He got the point, and is now one of our better, and more honorable, players.)
  

• Isn't it somewhat hypocrtitiocal to cheat, then get mad when someone essentially does it back to you?

• Does anyone have any thoughts on the speedball vs. woodsball attitudes I mentioned above, but from the speedballer perspective?
• I accept that cheating is necessary at almost any level of tournement play, but am curious about several things.
• How many tourney players also play rec/woods?
• Do you cheat in these situations against walk-on players?
• In tournement play, are you happy with the current level of reffing/rule enforcement or would changes (such as intensive video recording and after game reviews) which drastically reduced the level of wiping/playing on make you happier?
  

usafpilot07 wrote: Why don't you go more in depth into your argument than posting a weak attempt at making yourself look like a saint.

Okay.  For starters, playing by the rules doesn't make me a saint, but I can call myself honest.  Not playing by the rules does make you a cheater.

usafpilot07 wrote: Pass interference is NOT always unintentional

No kidding

usafpilot07 wrote: I would know, seeing as how I play defensive back.

I'm very impressed.  I play shooting guard and point.  Not sure what that has to do with anything though.

usafpilot07 wrote: It's accounted for in he rules, i.e. Minor, Major, penalties, and referees throw flags for the penalties just the same.

Except that, wiping is always intentional whereas pass interference, as you stated, isn't always.  If I'm hit and don't have time to look to see if there's paint, I call a ref over.

usafpilot07 wrote: Please bring something to the conversation if you have something to add.

Sorry, I thought "wiping = cheating = lame" was pretty self-explanatory.

tallen702 wrote: If say that you've never played on with a hit, then I'm going to call shenns right now. You can't tell me that you've never been hit on your equipment, or that you've never been hit in the leg as you slid in somewhere and played on because you couldn't tell if it had broken or not, then I know you're lying you butt off because everyone has done it.

You're right.  I did do it once when I first started and I felt like a cheater.

tallen702 wrote: USAF isn't saying that blatant outright bold-as-you-please cheating is playing a good game. What he's been saying the entire time is that if someone cheats against you, then the only way to come out on top is to do it right back to them. Tell me this, if you were in a major tournament and money was on the line for the winners, and some guy on the opposing team wiped when you hit them, and then proceeded to get a ball in on you, would you let that hit stand? After years of hard work, practice, and a ton of money, are you going to let them wipe the shot, then hit you, and just kindly walk off the field? I wouldn't. I'm not condoning cheating, but I'm not turning a blind eye and saying it doesn't happen or that I've never been in a situation where something like what I've mentioned before has come up. Have I been hit off the break while sliding in? OF COURSE! Could I tell if it broke when I got to my bunker? No way! I guarantee you that if you hit USAF fair and square, he'd call himself out. But if you cheat against him, he's going to make damn sure (as I would) that you aren't going to get away with it even if it means bending the rules yourself.

Sounds like a lot of justifying to me.  If it were a major tournament, I'd hope wiping would be pretty obvious.  If not, more refs are needed.  Again, if I'm hit and don't know if I'm tagged, I call a ref over.  Ask anyone I play with.

TIPPY98ACT wrote: I think the fear of getting hit combined with actually getting hit makes it hurt more.

Good point, Tippy.  It's like a car crash.  You tense up, you get hurt more.  I'm sure we've all heard how drunks often don't get as hurt in a crash because they're not all tensed up.

usafpilot07 wrote: So EVERY athlete in EVERY sport that has ever had a penalty called on them is a cheater? I think not.

I didn't say that.  Don't put words into my mouth.

usafpilot07 wrote: If you'd take the time to actually read my argument, instead of being a thick headed argumentative child, you'd understand what I was saying.

Whose being argumentative?  I'm just stating my case.  You're the one doing all the whining.

usafpilot07 wrote: Whiping in paintball is on the same level as Pass Interference in football. The penalties are dealt accordingly, and should be seen as such.

That's you opinion and you're certainly entitled to it.  Mine differs.

usafpilot07 wrote: You forget to mention, however, that there are rules in all of the major books concerning making a difference in the game while playing on with an unobvious hit.

So because a book tells you that you should cheat, you do?  Be a man and stand up for what's right.

usafpilot07 wrote: Really? Because it struck me as a feeble attempt to place yourself upon a pedestal.

How is playing by the rules "placing myself on a pedestal"?  I don't consider myself better or worse than anyone else...except cheaters.

Squishey wrote: yup, i have been playing for 3 years, and now the only hits that bother me are fingers, top of head, and nutters. its really not that bad.

agreed

usafpilot07 wrote: You don't back up any of your arguments, all you do is state your opinion, and then tell other people they are wrong.

I never told you that you're wrong.  I said you're entitled to your own opinion and said it nicely, whereas you call me elitist, hypocritial, a thick-headed child, insinuate that I'm not intelligent, tell me that I see myself as a saint and try to put myself on a pedestal.  Why don't you stop being so defensive, grow up and stick to the argument?

And before you come back at me and say that I called you less than a man, it's an expression.  What I mean by that is, don't justify cheating just because everyone else does it.  Stand up and be an example by saying it's wrong and that you refuse to do it.  How else will you ever change the culture of cheating in paintball?

My stance is very simple.  Wiping paint off is against the rules.  If you wipe paint off, you're cheating.  I can't be any clearer or more succinct than that.  Why do I need to back up my argument?  There's nothing more to say.  It's in black and white in any rule book.

usafpilot07 wrote: You are entitled to your opinion as well, but the fact remains that the punishments for "cheating" and wiping are completely different.

There are varying forms of punishments for varying degrees of offenses, some cheating, some not.  IMHO, intentional offenses = cheating.  Webster defines "cheat" as, "Engage in deceitful behavior; practice trickery or fraud".  Is that enough "back up" for you?

usafpilot07 wrote: I never said that the rule books tell you to cheat. They do however define them as a misdemeanor, and not a bannable offense.

usafpilot07 wrote: You continue to be extremely hypocritical in this instance.  You first tell me to quit putting words into your mouth, and that you aren't putting yourself on a pedestal, and then you go back to saying I'm not a man because I wipe?  That, coupled with the fact that you call people who wipe cheaters tends to be extremely elitist of you.

I think you need to put down the paintball books and look up the word hypocritical because that paragraph makes no sense.

usafpilot07 wrote: The way I see it, "cheating" in paintball (ie. cheater boards, extra padding, etc.) would be along the same lines as steroids, etc. in other sports. Wiping on the other hands, is expressly considered a minor penalty, and is dealt with in the same manner as any other penalty in any other sport.  I'm not sure I see how the connection can be made that wiping a hit is paramount to using steroids.

That's a pretty big leap.  Clever, though, making it sound as though I consider it paramount to steroids.  I don't, but it's still cheating.

I jumped in on page 3 of this thread , and Boy do I have something to say about what I read !!

USAfpilot I just lost a lot of respect for you from your comments , you seem to be supporting those that dont display integrity and honor in a game that is based upon those qualities , granted I jumped in on something after the fact , but an intentional wipe or playing on after a recognized hit "Should" be treated as a Major violation (pull the guys pants and shirt off and make him run a guantlet of 1000 markers on full auto !!) and then kick his sorry Arse out of the game or tournament !!

Granted , there have been time that I have taken a hit on equipment and did'nt know it immediately and played on . when I did find out , I apologized to the players I opposed and made it known I was unaware of the legimitate elimination . Things were cool because of that , It Happens (to me and to others just as well ) .

 I have also called myself out when I got hit in the toe and it broke resulting in a legal "Hit" , I thought nobody noticed , but I had an opposing player come up and comment on my integrity and thank me for being a "Stand-up" Player . I thought it was just part of the game , play fair , play Hard , Play to Win .

I'm not putting myself on a "pedestal" persay , I expect those standards of play from myself and those I play with , and to be honest , the easiest way to check to see if your hit somewhere you cant readily see , is to wipe your hand across the spot in question . At this point it could be called wiping , but what "YOU" do with the information that comes up when your glove comes up smeared with paint , or comes up clean,,,,,, is what defines integrity as a player , and the reputation of paintballers in general .

Let me put it to you this way ,,,,

The Etical man ,,, Knows its wrong to cheat on his wife.........

The Moral man ,,, Wont cheat on his wife......

The choice is yours............

Forgive the double post , but ,,

yeah , there's some places that it still hurts like hell to get hit at , the Neck , Nuckles , and Nutters , cover them up and smile !! or else

Tippy98act , I have to say , you hit it right upon the head wit your post at the top of page 3 , Ya never get used to the pain , Ya get over the fear because it aint gonna kill'ya . I come home from a morning of recball with one or two good hits in evidence and consider myself fortunate , because I know I've put 10 to 12 on others !! 

Sooner or later you become a hunter  , and at that point peeps begin to listen to you , for whatever reason . The main point is to have fun and know that you've play'd the best game you can . The credibility and respect will come in time .

The top tourny players didnt get where they are at on being able to shoot a paintball marker better. Im speculating that they are also good at wiping.

Remember once your caught for wiping at your home field you will be forever labeled a "wiper".

Maybe cheaters should have their own tournaments then , LOL, I can see that , two five man teams wiping for all they are worth , yelling at the Refs to watch the other guys wipe !!!

Seriously tho,,, wipers make excellent targets , they are checking to make sure they got all the paint off and dont see the next thirty or so coming,,, Wipe THAT Sucka !!

This has been a very illuminating thread ,,,, and as I see it , there will always be two "Camps" of players ;

Those that play fairly and honor the spirit and intent of paintball , wether it be in tournament or recball .

and

Those that justify cheating based upon whatever "reason" they choose to argue , money , points , prestige . Hell why not , Eh?

Some can and always will be able to claim they arent doing anything wrong by cheating , whether its on the field , their wives , taxes whatever have you . They claim all others have a "Holier than Thou" attitude because they are frowned upon and shunned by the general polulation as outcasts and criminals (at the very least non-conformists !) in what they practice , that practice is called deception as someone already mentioned .

As Tae Kwon Do already said , that practice is relatively rare in recball , not necessarily because of the skill of the "Type" of player that plays recball (I venture to say they are as good on the average as a lot of tournament level players, in fact a lot ARE former tournament players that grew disenchanted by the mindset openly displayed by usafpilot and others of like ilk ), but more the Values and integrity they prefer to be associated with .

I wont necessarily blow my lid when I see a "Wiper" , but I will spread the word among my team and upon confirmation , that person then becomes the most desirable and coveted target upon the field , and yes , I will bonus ball the daylights out of him/her given the opportunity . It seems to deliver a not so subtle message of whats expected , and yes , I WILL aim for tender spots , throat , fingers and ears . They dont like it , and I have even had some directly complain to me that I seemed to be hunting them , I told them I was and told them why .

I believe as long as there will be competitive arenas where cheaters are tolerated , there will be cheaters......

Competition is good , it hones your skills .

cheating is bad , period .

when somebody wipes , they deprive me of a legitimate elimination I've scored on them , there fore , I put as many on them as I can... IF and only if I have confirmation its deliberate .

I never said bonus balling is harmless or even the politically correct thing to do . I play renegade ball mostly and have never had to practice this on a renegade field , but on organised pay fields I have done this .

Maybe equating a bonus ball on a wiper as insurance is a bad thing (Yeah , right) , you wipe , you get bonus balled , seems a fair trade since you choose not to recognise a legitimate hit in the first place , NUFF SAID .

• Wiping = removing a legitimate hit and continuing to play after one should have left the field.
• Bonus balling
• Scenario one-intentionally shooting someone who has indicated they are out and is in the process of trying to depart the field.
• Scenario two-replacing the paint on an already eliminated opponent that said opponent illegally removed through wiping so that he/she could remain in play. (This scenario includes continuing to shoot until opponent is forced to acknowledge the elimination or is called out by officials due to he/she wearing more paint than they can easily wipe away.)

Saying bonus balling people is worse than wiping is retarded. Wiping encourages bonus balling, plain and simple.

The last time I got bonus balled was when I was hit somewhere I couldn't see, was told the location by the player who shot me, then dabbed my fingers in it to see if there was paint there. It looked like a wipe to him, I got turned orange. Believe me, i was more pissed at the wiper who pissed that guy off last time than I was at the over shooter.

I have never intentionally wiped. I only play rec, what's the point? If I were too lazy to walk back to the dead box I shouldn't be playing. I can see how the structure of tourney ball encourages it, and I dislike it, but for godsake drop that when you play recball.

If you're going to wipe you might as well just throw down your guns and fight for the flag. All you're doing is hurting each other if the hits dont count.