*Stealth* wrote: Clark Kent wrote: I for one have noticed that trend, and I applaud it. So, you want the USA to be Mexicos Canada? For shame.

No.  I want the market to decide.  I believe in freedom, even when "my" side might lose.

Learning Spanish is on my list - is it on yours?

Clark Kent wrote: *Stealth* wrote: Clark Kent wrote: I for one have noticed that trend, and I applaud it. So, you want the USA to be Mexicos Canada? For shame. No.  I want the market to decide.  I believe in freedom, even when "my" side might lose. Learning Spanish is on my list - is it on yours?

No.

Negative, I took spanish in high school, and didn't care to carry the studies further, didn't see the need to.

Or I'm too lazy.

I haven't decided yet.

That doesn't make me a redneck Gatyr.

USA 2 - Mexico 0

HA HA!

Anyone watch the soccer game last night? I caught the final 20 min.

CarbineKid wrote: ...why is it that Americans should have to learn a foreign language in our own land??? We bend over backwards to accommodate foreigners(illegal, or otherwise). Shouldn't the "visitors" make it a point learn our language. They are after all coming to our country.

So how is your Najavo, round-eyes?

Hysteria wrote: He was making the point that WE are the foreigners (Native Americans being the natives).

Exactly.  "English was here first" is not only hypocritical, but also patently false.

I don't understand how anybody can complain with a straight face about Spanish-speaking people coming in to take over.  Half of Americans live in places name "Los Angeles", "San Diego", "New MEXICO" for chrissake, "San Antonio".

English-speakers were not only not the first guys in, but in most of the country, not even second or third.

New York?  Originally named New Amsterdam.  New Orleans, St. Louis, Des Moines, Baton Rouge?  Not founded by English speakers either.  How about Paris, TX, and Peru, IL?  There are several towns named "Norway" around the country - I'll wager none of those were founded by English-speakers either.

This myth of the pervasiveness of English in US history is just that - a myth.

If you want to defend English-only purely on a selfish level, that's fine - I can respect that.  But attempts at the moral high ground based on primacy will fail miserably.

CarbineKid wrote: ...spoken by just about every US citizen since the countries inception.

I guess this depends on how you define "citizen", but I would have to say that "just about every" is a vast overstatement.

All those black fellas we imported from Africa.  English speakers?  I think not.

How about those Chinese workers that built the railroads?  How about the Dutch Amish?  The Scandinavians of the upper Midwest?  The Italians of NY and Chicago?

The US has a very long history of multi-lingualism.  We have slowly becoming more mono-lingual over the last few decades, but our origins were anything but.

The truth is that each wave of immigrants have gone through the exact process that Mexicans are doing now:  The original immigrants mostly hold on to their original language, perhaps picking up some functional English.  Their children are mostly bilingual, and the third generation has mostly lost the old language with only pockets of holdouts.

Their have been groups that have assimilated faster or slower, but everything I have read indicates the same basic pattern with each wave of immigrants, be it Irish, Italian, Polish, Swedish, African, Chinese, Greek, or Mexican.

CarbineKid wrote: If they wanted to survive and prosper then they had to learn English.....and the vast majority of them did.

Yep, and yep.

Its just common sense. How and I suppose to communicate with you when you speak a different language?

Agreed.

And why should the average American Citizen be forced to learn a foreign invaders language

See the previous quote from your post for the answer to that question.

Evil Elvis wrote: Ok I was born in Puerto Rico, english was taught in schools since the second grade. Wich they should as Puerto Ricans are born citizens of the US. But I do disagree with speaking Spanish and the way the US is bending over backwards not to offend some hispanics. Its our nature to not want to offend anyone. Especially the fastest growing minority in the nation. The Language is part of Hispanic Culture but it isnt all of it. Exactly. Movine from one language to another to ensure success for yourself doesn't make you any less of a hispanic, or of a German, or an Inuit for that matter. Just as I seen my culture change from my Father's generations to mine to the ones that the kids now days will have. I am proud of my heritage but I am an American First and Foremost. Another point lost on many people.  I always speak in english even to my mother who only speaks spanish when we are home or arround other Latinos. I think its rude and inconsiderate to speak a language not understood by other in their presence. This is an excellent point. I've got a friend of mine who is Chinese, and while I don't remember where we were, we ran into a couple of chinese-speaking people in a shop somewhere, having a conversation in their tongue. When we left, Wei told me that the two chinese people in there were making fun of the girl behind the counter. She said it is a common thing. How am I supposed to respect and trust people when this is something I'm constantly wondering about? If nothing else, its rude.  I know that when I was a kid and I used to rent VHS movies in english and i didnt understand I found movies fustrating. You live in America learn the Language, quit using 'culture' as a crutch for laziness. Awesome. The major problem I see in America is this need to self segredate, Oh I'm African American, Oh I'm Catholic, Oh I'm Gay, Oh Im Whatever. Again, correct, why? I don't know, but its the truth. Rather than defining ourselves by the type of person we are, we seek out that which makes us a minority of some kind, and pin that as our defining characteristic. One of the things I liked the most about the Marines was that we where all Marines. At least in my unit it didnt matter who or where you came from. We where all just Marines. One of the best life lessons i learned was when doing a Embassy Evacuation in Brazaville Zaire, Africa one of our Marines of 'african american' heritage got a tongue lashing from an African that he told he was an African American. To everyone else in the planet we are all Americans doenst matter if you where a Red Headed Puertorican, a Hilly Jack from West Virginia or a not so African American from Detrot.

Regardless of the history of the language in this country, Let's face it, English has evolved into the predominant tongue in this country. Why or how isn't much matter anymore, thats just what happened. With that being said, people seeking citizenship to this country ought to make the effort to learn the language to better enable themselves to succeed here. Rather than have to rely on the state to make amends and changes to cater to the stubborn ones who attach culture to language with such strong ties that breaking them is a mortal sin.

Tae Kwon Do wrote: It all works itself out, if history has taught us anything, that should be it, that if English is the populous language, eventually English will work its way into their culture and life.

Ditto.  The reason I think Americans should learn Spanish is not because Spanish will be the dominant language in 25 years - I don't think that will happen.

But what WILL happen is a continued increased interaction with the Spanish speaking world.  Most of our neighbors speak Spanish - shouldn't we at least try to learn the language?  In the rest of the world, people pick up functional knowledge of other languages spoken in their region.  Why can't we?  TMK, the US is the only industrialized country without a real language requirement in school.  We can write that off as "most people speak English", but that's only partly true.  The reality is that there will be a lot of Spanish speakers in and around our country for a long time to come, and it is foolish to ignore that.

Just like foreigners are better off if they learn the local language, so are the locals better off if they understand the neighbors' language.

And they are - to their advantage.

We are failing to learn Spanish - to our DISadvantage.

If everybody speaks English, but everybody but us also speaks Spanish, who wins?

Sorry for dredging this up, but this news tidbit seemed relevant:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/12022007/344/jobless-must-learn-speak-english.html - UK may require English skill to qualify for unemployment benefits .

Hmm.

I think I side with the British on the enemployments benefits side.  Not at least trying to learn English falls in the same category, for employment purposes, as not showing up for your adult ed class that you were supposed to take.  If you are going to get unemployment benefits you should at least try to put yourself in a position to get a job.

As for the driver's license - don't agree, EE.  The signs aren't in "English", they are in sign language.  I have driven cars in plenty of countries where I didn't speak the language, and I did just fine.  Heck, in most countries (including the US) you don't actually need a driver's license from that country to drive.  You can drive in the US with a French driver's license, and vice versa (temporarily, anyway).  I don't see language incapability as a good reason to keep somebody from driving.

As to the "bending over backwards" - I think we have to break it down some more.  Tax forms in Spanish?  Seems like a good idea, since we would like to collect taxes.  Medical information in Spanish?  Seems like a moral imperative.  I think we have to examine the individual instances to decide whether multi-linguality is appropriate or not.

But here is the other thing:  If we are going to be high and mighty about how people should learn English, then we have a moral obligation to TEACH them English.  TMK, Most European countries that have a language requirement for immigrants (and many that do not) have REAL language programs for immigrants - not the pathetic efforts we have here.  Many people can teach themselves languages - but many cannot.  It is not right (nor helpful, from a selfish perspective) for us to demand that others (including natural born citizens) learn our language, but decline to provide the tools for them to do so.

Evil Elvis wrote: As stated before my problem with the whole issue is the lack of the basic drive to go get help.

And I sympathize with that position, but I also think that position is ultimately unhelpful.

It would benefit the individual to learn English, but it would also benefit society if that individual learned English.  So instead of declaring "no soup for you" because the individual doesn't care enough to try, it would be a more rational and self-interested approach for society to find a way to help that individual learn English, for the benefit of all.

It's the same as unemployment benefits, really.  While these benefits can be good for the individual, they are primarily an economic benefit for society (at least in theory - practice can get a little shakier), by preserving a useful worker for return to the labor pool when needed instead of discarding.

It's just an investment.  And the US is not, IMO, investing anywhere near enough in teaching immigrants English.  Yes, there are many ESL programs available in the states.  But they still require the individual to go find them, sign up, and (sometimes) pay.  And even then the quality and depth of instruction is limited.  If we were truly serious about the importance of learning English we would have much more extensive programs, and we would automatically funnel all immigrants into those programs.

Right now, I think the "English-Only" crowd, on a national basis, is talking smack, but not putting up.  They are taking a moralistic stance rather than a practical stance, and they are not being helpful.

Evil Elvis wrote: I know people that are 2nd and 3rd generation welfare recipients. The problem is far more profound than "English Only" is the fact that a few people have made it a way of life to cheat the system.

Hard to disagree with that.  I am all to familiar with the "welfare as a profession" attitude, and it is a serious problem in this country (and elsewhere).