Whats your Rigs specs ? are you shooting with an RT ? (BIG GAS HOG !) or are you looking for a balance between efficiency and performance ?

Just as in the Muscle cars of the "60's and "70's its a trade , what do you want ,, 600 HP and 45 MPG ?!? generally speaking Higher performance equates to lower efficiency and Vice-versa .

Literal answer to your post :

Reduce reciprocating mass

utilize all expended propellant

Specs ?

and what bottom line of performance are you looking to achieve ?

Shadowminion wrote: and what bottom line of performance are you looking to achieve ?

Get a few more paintballs out of my CO2 tanks.

UF #1 wrote: How much does it cost to fill a HPA tank?

Usually a dollar per 1k psi.

If you get a 70/4500 or larger and can get it fully filled, you will get more out of it than a 20 oz.

Otherwise, polish internals. Don't expect a huge leap, and don't expect for amazing efficiency. If it's a big problem, buy several tanks.

What do Palmer's Stabilizers do exactly?

What Tallen said about the stabilizers is true ,  it will help prevent liquid from entering your CVX valve .

Remote lines tend to do the same thing as well by carrying the CO2 bottle in a postion thats much less likely to allow liquid to leave the bottle , and any liquid that does escape enters a long coiled hose which acts as a larger heat exchange surface to ensure total expansion of the liquid into a gas .

the unregulated pressure from the bottle that fills the CVX valve is anywhere from 600 to 1500 PSI depending on the ambient temperatures (approximately 40 Deg F to 100 Deg ) . This is a characteristic of CO2 and theres not anything anybody can do about that except install a pressure regulator if thats what you feel is needed .

I do not run a stabilizer or remote setup on my rig , so , occasionally I encounter inconsistencies because of that .

Assuming a person isnt or doesnt have the pocketbook to buy all those above mentioned goodies , there's a couple lower dollar tricks to get almost the same consistency / efficiency for practically nothing but some careful labor and a few dollars .

1.Polishing the internals . there's most likely some overspray on the inside of your receiver halves where the rear bolt cycles back and forth when you shoot it . This impacts how smoothly the rear bolt moves , and as you know if you reduce friction , you reduce the amount of force required to move that piece (rear bolt , AKA hammer ) in this case the force is compressed CO2 . There are plenty of threads on polishing the internals both on this forum and at model98.org so I wont go into the "How-To" . Search and read  , you will be rewarded with a wealth of information .

2. this is a mod I developed purely for gas efficiency.. with your marker fully assembled look at the seam where the two reciever halves come together , there are inconsistencies where the casting process either left an excess of material or not quite enough for the halves to come perfectly together (this is an inherant drawback to the diecasting process , not a quality control issue ). to show you how much gas is wasted by these small imperfections , gas up your marker , point it down to feed liquid this makes it easier to see escaping gasses (leaks) , and cycle it rapidly 10-15 times any CO2 smoke you see coming out of the top and bottom (trigger area) of your marker is WASTED gas , not excess , but pure waste .

 Right now if you think a very tiny gap doesnt make much of a difference  , look at the open area around the poppet valve pin , this is where the gas from the CVX valve is directed to blow the hammer back (you have to disassemble the marker to look at the end of the CVX valve ) . I took a Norton two sided sharpening stone and VERY carefully worked down the high spots of the recievers until I had a very close fit with out any gaps showing when the two halves of the recievers were fully assembled .

 WARNING HERE !! Always fully assemble your marker and fit test all the components for proper function Ie: free movement of the hammer and that you can still screw in your barrel fully . you will be reducing the operating clearances inside your marker and care must be taken not to take off too much material . if you elect not to polish the internals , you will encounter resistance sooner and may need to do that just to obtain a good fit of the recievers . I dont have a "Before" picture of the fitting of the recievers , but here's an "After" :

<img src=" http://shadowminion.mypicgallery.com/widowmakerMODS/clamshell-fitted-no-gaps.jpg - http://shadowminion.mypicgallery.com/widowmakerMODS/clamshel l-fitted-no-gaps.jpg ">

To assist you in deciding where to use the stone to take away material , initially you can use you eyeball , you can see where the largest gaps are , but as you get closer , use a sharpie marker to completely "color" the surfaces you've been grinding with the stone and reassemble the marker . The spots that come into contact with each other first (the high spots) will mar the sharpie markings and you wwill have an indication of where to grind just a little bit more (this is called "Witness Marks" showing where there is metal to metal contact . ) .

I have found that with a few mindful tactical changes to my play style , The liquid feed issues can for the most part be eliminated , such as not trying to "Hose Down" the field with sustained saturation fire (afew rapid bursts seem to keep heads down just as effectively ) , and shooting from a lower postion (kneeling or laying down ), to keep the marker and its CO2 supply bottle oriented to lessen the chance of feeding liquid into the marker .

Remember , Only use the Norton stone where there is metal to metal contact , you want to shave off the high spots of the clamshells , nothing more . If you get too exhuberant with removing metal , you can actually hurt the performance of your marker . Take your time , reassemble and fit test often .

To Tallen702 :       / Raspberries

OMG !! I got approval of the <Wait,,, I'm too excited right now > ok , I've calmed down ,,of,,, of ,, "The" B_S , Woo-Hoo !!   

Anyways , Like I said in another post beware of those who blindly recommend you spend big bucks (or small bucks for that matter ) for the sake of  "Performance"  . B_S's shopping list would set you back roughly , Umm $200.00 American , maybe a bit less , and I think thats just BS !!

I spent around $70.00 to reduce the weight of my bolt with a Dark Horizons Ti Lite bolt (reduced bolt mass by 60 %) , and I thought long and hard about parting with that kind of money just for the sake of cycle speed , but it did what I expected it to , nothing more nothing less , so for me it was money well spent . and I hesitate to even recommend that to anyone because the "Bang for the buck" isnt very great

My position stands , the RT uses more gas . period

PS . If you judge a person's credibility by their post count , or "Gold" or "Platinum" status ,, Buyer beware . I've seen posters with 6000 posts that shouldnt have been allowed to even pick a paintball marker up , let alone give advice . Ask around , read posts , search and come to your own conclusions .

Snake6 wrote: Shadowminion wrote: PS . If you judge a person's credibility by their post count , or "Gold" or "Platinum" status ,, Buyer beware . I've seen posters with 6000 posts that shouldnt have been allowed to even pick a paintball marker up , let alone give advice . Ask around , read posts , search and come to your own conclusions . Now you have hurt my feelings. /me goes and cries...

Snake , you are one of the people I had hoped he would "Ask around" to . 

There are many knowledgable posters here as well , but as with anything , dont blindly trust a credential thats based upon Volume rather than quality . Once a person is here a while , quality and knowledge is easy to spot .

Shadow,

You have said this before and I just can't let it go unchallenged. You keep saying that a good fit of the mating halves of the shells makes a difference by reducing gas leakage.

I just have to point out that the shell has a slot in the side for the rear bolt handle and an open port through which the paintball enters. And, no gas is routed outside of the internal mechanism so that no sealing the shell is necessary in any way.

Gas comes into the marker through the braid hose and is held captive inside the power/CVX valve. Upon release by the triggered sear the hammer (rear bolt) moves rapidly forward into the open back end of the power tube where the hammer's "O" ring makes a seal between the hammer and the power tube. The hammer continues forward to strike the pin valve (a sealed poppet valve) on the back end of the CVX. This releases the gas charge into the back open slots of the body of the CVX valve. The majority of the released gas cannot go rearward because of another "O" ring around the rear most wall of the body of the CVX valve. That gas pressure has to go forward traveling, still inside the body of the power tube, along the machined passage slots in the outside of the body of the CVX.

As that gas charge reaches the front end of the CVX, the power tube necks down to a smaller diameter extension that goes further forward towards the receiver area into which the ball drops and sits until the front bolt moves forward forcing the ball into the breach throat of the barrel. The forward edge of the bolt is sealed into the end of the barrel by its own "O" ring. At the same time the rear end of the bolt is a very tight fit around the end of the power tube. Some forward bolts even use an "O" ring at this junction between the tube and the rear end of the bolt. If there is any leak at this point the gas will escape through the ball loading port. Even if the loading port were sealed that bit of escaping gas is then outside of the ball propulsion mechanism and can do nothing at that point.

Now back to the poppet valve on the rear of the CVX. As the hammer opened the poppet valve and the majority of the gas was directed forward, the hole through which the poppet valve pin extends, so it may be struck by the hammer, is not sealed. It is a tight fit but gas "leaks" rearward into the chamber now created by the "O" ring seal around the nose of the hammer and the rear of the CVX valve. There is no escape for this gas so it pushes against the face of the hammer and starts it, the hammer, moving to the rear against strong spring pressure.

As the hammer/rear bolt moves to the rear the "O" ring sealed nose moves out of the power tube and the seal is lost. But, the rearward movement has been imparted to the hammer and its inertia carries it all the way back to where the sear engages and the marker is then cocked and ready to fire again. That small impulse of gas released when the hammer's "O" ring cleared the power tube vents out the cocking leaver slot...having efficiently done its job.

At no place along its path from the CVX valve to exiting out the end of the barrel was the gas dependent on a seal between the halves of the shell. In fact, many people skeletonize these forward areas of the shells opening slots and holes for a customized look at no detriment to the function of the marker.

At no place, moving to the rear to drive the hammer back to its cocked position, was the gas dependent on the seal between the halves of the shells.

In this case the investment casting of the shells displays no short coming in providing the supportive framework in which the pneumatic valves and passageways are mounted and held in alignment. I cannot see any value in perfectly mated shell halves other than some minor cosmetics.

Have I evaluated this incorrectly?

In short you are correct Bruce .(but only to a point) . Enos and I discussed this at length a couple years back , we evaluated the interactions and actions in excruciating detail for almost 3 pages and concluded the idea had merit (after I had done it relatively recently ,, then,,) Rico's Revenge also expressed an interest , but I dont see him post here often anymore .

For a fraction of a second , the pressure released from the CVX valve and the small lip you refer to is contained inside the mating halves of the clamshells , its this pressure that builds and propells the rear bolt backwards , and simultaenously propells the paintball forward . During this short time , the pressure IS "supposedly" contained in the recievers as it builds to do its work as its released (remember that pressure is not an instantaneous value , as CO2 acts and behaves according to the laws of fluid dynamics , the pressure travels as its released from the CVX valve . What it does and when as it travels is what the basis of this is about.)  What I have done , is , simply put , contained that pressure (Ie; increased the back pressure for the whole combination of components you mentioned ) until the cocking slot becomes involved where it releases all effective application of pressure .any gas at that point is considered  "Waste"

Now.. any pressure will tend to take the path of least resistance , whether its electrical , pneumatic or hydraulic ,,, so ANY path that lets gas (or hopefully not liquid) escape down an unintended route is bad and wasteful .

There is nothing to contain the pneumatic pressure but the reciever halves when the CO2 is released from the poppet valve !! To add to this is the habit of an unsupported material to flex under pressure . If you examine the top of the 98 , you will see that there are no fasteners except for at the front sight and the rear sight , that allows a LOT of potential flex in the diecast metal to seperate under pressure (Put a pair of calipers across the middle top of the frame when you fire the marker ) and it WILL seperate there when 850 PSI is applied !! I've solved this by mounting a red dot sight where the 1/8" ground slot is on the top rail of my 98 , it keeps the recievers from seperating as much as they could .

And dont let an opportunity pass without challenging my thought processes . Firing a marker is a dynamic event and many things happen at once , I just happened to key on this one and found what I thought to be a solution . Questioning is the key to learning , I've learned to respect a lot of what you say , and question what I dont fully understand .

Sorry for spelling and grammatical errors , busy night tonight .

Bruce ,

Edit : In some specific detail , its the action of the CO2 at this stage that needs some clarification :

First , the assumption : then the rebuttal in bold (because I cant figure out how to change font color)

"Now back to the poppet valve on the rear of the CVX. As the hammer opened the poppet valve and the majority of the gas was directed forward, the hole through which the poppet valve pin extends, so it may be struck by the hammer, is not sealed."  This hole creates back pressure and directs CO2 pressure forward , some of the pressure "Leaks" rearward to propel the rear bolt back to cocked position , the hole is very small in surface area in comparison to the gas passages going forward , but it is the first place in the firing process to "See" pressure . the pressure travels as its released or "expands". once this pressure starts moving the rear bolt backwards (at this point its still contained by the small lip of the CVX valve) it also begins to expand forward into the gas passages towards the front bolt . 

"It is a tight fit but gas "leaks" rearward into the chamber now created by the "O" ring seal around the nose of the hammer and the rear of the CVX valve. There is no escape for this gas so it pushes against the face of the hammer and starts it, the hammer, moving to the rear against strong spring pressure." and the inertia of the entire bolt assembly

"As the hammer/rear bolt moves to the rear the "O" ring sealed nose moves out of the power tube and the seal is lost." More correctly the gas then has other places it can "leak" to,,,namely the gaps in the mating surfaces of the frames and the clearance around the rear bolt oring . the rear bolt is fully surrounded by the reciever halves at this point and will be until it travels a short distance rearward and involves the cocking slot (though in comparison to the distance the bolt travels when its engaged in the lip of the CVX valve , its actually quite a long distance ) 

"But, the rearward movement has been imparted to the hammer and its inertia carries it all the way back to where the sear engages and the marker is then cocked and ready to fire again. That small impulse of gas released when the hammer's "O" ring cleared the power tube vents out the cocking leaver slot..." All I have done is more efficiently contained this small impulse of gas until it truely does get released by the cocking slot . there is a distance the bolt travels between leaving the lip of the CVX valve and where it reaches that cocking slot . by surface grinding the mating halves of the recievers , Ie; creating a somewhat better fit and seal , there is more back pressure pushing the bolt back to cocked position and more gas utilized in pushing the paintball forward.

THAT , my friend , is efficeincy ...

I am not claiming an enormous gain in efficeincy , maybe in the range of 5-7 % , but over the course of a 16 Oz tank of CO2 , that would be another hopperful of paint more or less . and for as simple as it is to do , I'd say its worth it .

Black_Shadow wrote: Shadowminion wrote: OMG !! I got approval of the <Wait,,, I'm too excited right now > ok , I've calmed down ,,of,,, of ,, "The" B_S , Woo-Hoo !!    mhmmm... mabye you should should relax pal... and help the poor kid with marker issues rather than waste everyones time attempting to make fun of me...

What exactly have YOU contributed to this thread ?

Shadow,

I am just going to have to point out that the actuation rod slot is not a snug fit which allows this theoretical residual pressure, after the "O" ring clears the rear of the power tube, to escape both to the front of the marker and to the rear exiting behind the hammer's "O" ring and out the cocking lever slot.

Also, the hammer is VERY heavy relative to any open gap. The gas is not going to continue to exert any pressure on the hammer once the "O" ring passes the lip of the power tube...particularly considering the fact that the "O" ring doesn't touch, much less make a seal with, the inside of the shell halves once it clears the power tube. 

Okay Bruce , next time you've got your marker apart , give it a closer look-see .

What I've done,,, works ..

and aerodynamically ,,, bumblebees cant fly either , but dont tell the bumblebee that , they wont believe you .

Shadowminion wrote: Okay Bruce , next time you've got your marker apart , give it a closer look-see . What I've done,,, works .. and aerodynamically ,,, bumblebees cant fly either , but dont tell the bumblebee that , they wont believe you .

I know the physics as to how bumble bees fly. I also know that the hammer "O" ring lightly touches only the very bottom of my receiver halves. I was sitting with my marker open and my loupe in place inspecting for telltale signs that the gas couldn't exit along the actuation rod and that the "O" ring might, under gas pressure, stand even the slightest chance of creating a seal between the hammer and the shell. No indicator was detectable.

Okay , I think maybe theres been a misunderstanding here and I just caught it .

I never claimed to have made a perfect seal , what I claimed to have done (and suceeded at ) was introduce MORE back pressure by reducing the clearances and eliminating the gaps caused by the casting imperfections . Gas will still leak out in most of the places it did before , but not as quickly .

 You've brought up a good point that I hadn't considered tho,,, when gas escapes along the cocking rod slot , where will some of that pressure eventually travel to , considering it takes the path of least resistance ? I think it would end up in the barrel , at least some of it if the fit of the recievers were as close as my photograph shows , No ? Remember the upper reciever clamp (cleverly disguised as a red dot sight) has been removed from the marker to show some unobstructed detail of the surface ground fit of the clamshells . That , and as my marker was particularly warped I ended up removing roughly .025" to .035" , that would also make for less clearance around the rear bolt O-ring  , again helping increase back pressure when the marker is fired .

One way to tell just how much "residual pressure" is seen at the reciever halves would be to install an indicating pressure guage at the port where the RT (or cyclone) would normally attach . it would have to be a back mounted 10/32 ? guage , unfortunately I dont have acess to an instrument like that , maybe even a transducer , but again , I dont own one , Hmm , maybe McMaster has one. (Cheap , I hope  !! ) anybody have a pressure calibrator we can borrow ?